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We are playing a 2v2 game.

Sicarius lets all Space Marines use his leadership, and we have agreed that specials can overlap IF the wording allows

...so are SW SM?

Well, yeah.

/duh

They are a chapter of the Space Marines, yet they're not a part of C:SM

Depends on how Cato's ability is worded IMO

I think it's specifically referring to Codex: Space Marines units.

Lobukia wrote:...and we have agreed that specials can overlap IF the wording allows

If that's how you're playing it, then yes, anything that affects Space Marines would affect Space Wolves.

It's more normal, (and potentially a little fairer regardless of the partnership) to stick to only allowing special rules to affect the one army, though.

If you want to say that, then all space wolves, black templars, blood angels, dark angels and chaos space marines are space marines.

Or it just means the units in the codex.

Please keep in mind the wording of the rule states all space marine units on the table can use the rule. It states nothing about allies or enemies, so ALL space marines may use the rule.

juraigamer wrote:Please keep in mind the wording of the rule states all space marine units on the table can use the rule. It states nothing about allies or enemies, so ALL space marines may use the rule.

Nope, that one is covered by the rulebook FAQ.

I say keep to one codex. You are a SW player, now you want to be like some DA players and use 2 codicies? Stick to one book.

I say no, SW do not use rules from the Ultramarine codex. Remember the SM codex says it's basically an Ultramarine codex. Since there is no SW mentioned in the C:SM then I say NO.

So the question you should be asking is, Space Wolves Ultramarines then.

*edit* Sorry I am tired, did not mean to sound so snoody.

I believe GW ruled that such rules effect only your army, such as IG orders cannot be issued to "allied" IG armies.

The Mad Tanker wrote:I believe GW ruled that such rules effect only your army, such as IG orders cannot be issued to "allied" IG armies.

Davor wrote:I say keep to one codex. You are a SW player, now you want to be like some DA players and use 2 codicies? Stick to one book.

I say no, SW do not use rules from the Ultramarine codex. Remember the SM codex says it's basically an Ultramarine codex. Since there is no SW mentioned in the C:SM then I say NO.

So the question you should be asking is, Space Wolves Ultramarines then.

*edit* Sorry I am tired, did not mean to sound so snoody.

Please take the time to note, his group already decided to use "friendly" buffs for teams.

That said a Space Wolf is a Space Marine, just like a Chaos Space Marine is, or a BloodAngel.

A Space Wolf is a space marine, not a Space Marine.

In the sense that while Space Wolves belong to the overall grouping of space marine (a fluff thing), they do not belong to the sub-group Space Marine (a rule thing) but rather the sub-group Space Wolves.

Steelmage99 wrote:A Space Wolf is a space marine, not a Space Marine.

In the sense that while Space Wolves belong to the overall grouping of space marine (a fluff thing), they do not belong to the sub-group Space Marine (a rule thing) but rather the sub-group Space Wolves.

That would work if GW used that sort of hierarchy in their rules. They don't.

Codex: Space Wolves, page 24: And They Shall Know No Fear. Last paragraph shows that they consider Space Wolves to be Space Marines (in the capitalised sense).

A question that has been overlooked is- Are you considering each side as one army or are you playing 2 armies v 2 armies? If the latter then the question of SW=SM is moot since it only affects models in his army. If 1v1 then what are you going to do if the opponents use Orks + Eldar or some other grouping of 2 Codexes?
Another problem arises if the opposing side is using a Space Marine chapter. Would you allow them to use his leadership as well (since SM=SM=SM)?
For simplicity's sake I would say each player should just use his rules and not allow any overflow. The exception would be if both sides are only using 1 Codex each.

I just have to laugh that a Space Wolf player who already has the "easy" button, has no shame and needs to use the Ultramarine (yes C:SM but it does say UM codex) codex for an extra buff.

That is the way I would look at it. Do you have no shame? Stick to your codex. Since a SM is a SM is a SM, then an Xeno is an Xeno is an Xeno. Would it be ok for their rules to over lap then? If not why not? Use your own codex.

If you consider Dark Eldar as Eldar for the purpose of Fortune/Guidance, I guess you could consider Space Wolves as Space Marines. Even Space Wolves should acknowledge someone like Sicarius as a leader.

If that's your house rule, count them as Space Marines. Otherwise (tournament-style rules), no.

Some clarity

A friend (SW) and I (SM) are teaming up against 2 buddies with a DE/Eldar force.

Its a friendly game and we are counting it as 1 army vs 1 army (not 2 armies vs 2 armies).

They have some awesome combination they want to do, so we have agreed that IF a rule says "Eldar" it works with both DE and Craftworlders but if it says "Dark Eldar" then is would only work with DE ("army" or "friendly" being pretty straight forward).

So I was curious, using the same logic, would Sicarius be able to give his Leadership to the SW (we can save the points on Wolf Guard in Grey Hunter packs and if nothing else place them elsewhere/buy better units)... the rub is that Space Wolves are not calledl "Wolf Space Marines" or the like, so it becomes a little muddier with SM/SW.

Well i wouldn't count dark eldar as eldar. Simply because why would they fight alongside each other? It would be like allowing SM librarians to buff up chaos marines; sure you can pretend they're fighting a common enemy, but i doubt they'll aid each other. (treat it like a 2 armies v 2 armies)

So if my opponents wanted eldar to be considered as a description of a race rather than of the armies then i would expect my space marines would be allowed to work with all "space marines" ba, da, sw, bt, chaos and maybe even grey knights (i say maybe because i don't know jack about them)

my 2 cents

Seems fine with what you all are doing, I'd run with it so if all Eldar rules hit DE that all SM rules hit Space Wolves

DE specific doesnt hit Eldar so Wolf Specific won't hit Marine

AFAIC, if it has ATSKNF, its a space marine. Space wolves have it.

That is a rather arbitrary line drawn.

Steelmage99 wrote:That is a rather arbitrary line drawn.

Why is that?

Last part of ATSKNF, when explaining that Servitors, Thralls, Wolves, Etc, in all Codices excepting Grey knights: "providing that the unit contain at least one Space marine"(the grey knight Codex says "Grey Knight" instead of "Space Marine")

But then Grey knights we are told as being "Space Marines" starting on Page 5 of their Codex, and in their Codex: Fluff exactly = Rules

So drawing the line at ATSKNF is both Valid and Logical.

i disagree, chaplains and death company are fearless and thus don't have ATSKNF. By your definition they're not space marines; saying anything that has ATSKNF plus these things makes the rule vague and would have to evolve as the "space marine" codexes do.

It can really go either way as there are no real rules governing multi army per side games under the apocalypse threshold.

The way I see it is that you take the name of the codex

A Grey Hunter is a Space Wolf. A tactical marine is a Space Marines (or a blood angel, etc). This is how I would play it, only the C:SM units get the bonus (so if you had 2 C:SM lists you could do some fun stuff)

Regardless of which option you go with, you and your opponent need to avoid 1 thing...cherry picking. If there is any ability which hampers a whole army (I dont have an offhand example) it would also affect both sides.

Question: if you are treating them as 1 army...are you using 1 FOC in total, or 1 per player? As well, can the DE hop into an empty Eldar transport under your game? Or for that matter banshees get into a raider?

Lobukia wrote:Some clarity

A friend (SW) and I (SM) are teaming up against 2 buddies with a DE/Eldar force.

Its a friendly game and we are counting it as 1 army vs 1 army (not 2 armies vs 2 armies).

They have some awesome combination they want to do, so we have agreed that IF a rule says "Eldar" it works with both DE and Craftworlders but if it says "Dark Eldar" then is would only work with DE ("army" or "friendly" being pretty straight forward).

So I was curious, using the same logic, would Sicarius be able to give his Leadership to the SW (we can save the points on Wolf Guard in Grey Hunter packs and if nothing else place them elsewhere/buy better units)... the rub is that Space Wolves are not calledl "Wolf Space Marines" or the like, so it becomes a little muddier with SM/SW.

Along the lines that you've described (with Dark Eldar counting as being Eldar), it certainly sounds reasonable to count SW as SM. Since there are not official rules for team games like this, it comes down to whatever house rules you agree on, or the tournament organizer sets in a tournament.

Yes they are. They are all space marines.

Joetaco wrote:i disagree, chaplains and death company are fearless and thus don't have ATSKNF. By your definition they're not space marines; saying anything that has ATSKNF plus these things makes the rule vague and would have to evolve as the "space marine" codexes do.

The Statement "Anything with ATSKNF are space marines" is not the same as the statement "Only models with ATSKNF are Space Marines".

Death Company receive the Validity of Being "Space Marine Units" both through Fluff(which does now + rules as stated earlier), and through the top of page 90 in their Codex.

The Crozius Arcanum lends validity to the Chaplain as a Space marine as it is a "Space Marine Chaplain's Badge of Office".

If Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar both count as 'Eldar', then most definitely Space Wolves count as 'Space Marines!'

In a friendly game this seems perfectly OK, and probably works just fine most of the time. However, I suspect that the rules are not written such interpretation in mind, so it is possible that it might allow some broken mega-combo of doom with some combinations.

How are Space Wolves not Space Marines? The are no more or less Space Marines than Ultramarines, Salamanders, White Scars or Crimson Fists. While dark eldar are as much eldar as Chaos Space Marines are Grey Knights.

I would also like to point out that in Apocalypse, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc are not mentioned in the Allies Matrix. Just Space Marines. Just my 2 cents.