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If Gahz is in your army and dies before he waaaghs does the army still get to use the special rules of his waagh? If so where are the rules to support this? For some reason I think he can but can't recall why.

No. If he dies before firing off da WAAAGH! then you lose the special one but can still call the regular WAAAGH! when you want.

-cgmckenzie

cgmckenzie wrote:No. If he dies before firing off da WAAAGH! then you lose the special one but can still call the regular WAAAGH! when you want.

-cgmckenzie

I dont remember any rule which says this is true, i would say yes to the op.

It's his waaagh!

If he's dead, you can't use it, you use the normal waaagh! as per the codex.

Correct. You can, however, call his Waaagh! just before you remove him as casualty, if he would die to shooting and you plan on using it next turn.

hmm. Does his rule state he must be alive to use his WAAAGH!? Granted it would be kind of silly to say you still get it if he dies beforehand but I don't believe his entry states it goes away if he gets pasted before you use it.

Trying to use his Waagh! after he his dead would be like me trying to use a boss pole after the nob holding it is dead. If Ghaz dies, you lose his special Waagh! however you can still use the normal Waagh! Like Jidmah said, since you can use Ghaz Waagh! at any time (assuming he's yet to be removed), just call it right before he's removed from the table.

Happyjew wrote:Trying to use his Waagh! after he his dead would be like me trying to use a boss pole after the nob holding it is dead. If Ghaz dies, you lose his special Waagh! however you can still use the normal Waagh! Like Jidmah said, since you can use Ghaz Waagh! at any time (assuming he's yet to be removed), just call it right before he's removed from the table.

Agree. If Ghaz is killed, just call his Waaagh! as he dies - it can be called at any time (except turn 1).

He is the "Prophet of the Waaagh!", the enhanced Waaagh! is his special ability and replaces the normal Waaagh!.

Remember that gazs waghhh can be called at any time so to agree with people above you could call it b4 he dies then you will benifit from it.

Incorrect everyone

Absolutely NOTHING requires Ghaz to be alive when you call the Waagh! in fact it states it replaces the normal waaaagh!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Incorrect everyone

Absolutely NOTHING requires Ghaz to be alive when you call the Waagh! in fact it states it replaces the normal waaaagh!

I play Orks, almost always with Ghaz. p. 58 "Ghazghkull's war cry can unleash a Waaagh!..." Ghaz is literally (in the fictional world) screaming "Waaagh!" at the top of his lungs.

Prophet of the Waaagh! is an activated ability, even referred to on p. 58 as "Ghazghkull's Waaagh!"

(side-note: I think this is the first time I've every disagreed with you on an issue, Nos! I think I'd need citation that Prophet is not an activated ability, though.)

Ghazzguls waaagh is NOT an activated ability of Ghaz, but of the Ork army itself. Read the rules furhter, and notice it REPLACES the Ork Waagh!

And the Waagh! does NOT require a warboss to be taken at all. Its an inate abilty of the Ork army

I see what you're saying, but I would argue that "replaces the army's usual Waaagh!" is in the same paragraph as "Ghazghkull's war cry can unleash a Waaagh! of devastating proportions".

I'm reading it as Ghazghkull's war cry unleashes the replacement Waaagh!.

I don't think there's a right answer here. It's one of those "play as you have been, wait for a faq which will never come, and ask your TO before any tourney".

The first is fluff, the second is rules.

Ruleswise you replace the normal Army WAAAGH!, which does not require a warboss to have even been bought for the army, with Ghaz Waagh. You then follow the normal rules for the Waaagh "activation", which is on an army basis

Ruleswise Ghaz does NOT need to be alive.

They both appear in the same paragraph, so I don't think you can call one fluff and the other rules.

I don't think the fact that you don't need a warboss to call a Waaagh! has any bearing on whether or not Prophet of the Waaagh! is an activated ability.

They call it "Ghazghkull's Waaagh!" two times in the Prophet explanation, and a third time "Ghazghkull cannot combine his Waaagh!..."

I would say:
Ruleswise Ghaz DOES need to be alive.

But again: it's a "play as you have been, wait for a faq that will never come, and ask your TO before any tourney" situation.

I'm really liking this idea, Its funny to think of Ghaz lying there dead and inspiring troops with a devastating Waaaaagh. But it also leads me to wonder,

Can Ghaz call his Waaagh, if he's in reserves and hasn't made it onto the table yet? If he can that would also lead to the idea he could do it while dead.

Yes, they call it Ghazzguls Waaaagh! to differentiate it from the normal Waaaagh! You are told it replaces the normal Waaaagh! meaning you activate it under the same conditions as a normal waaagh!, which is army-activated not model-activated

And you can DEFINITELY have a mix of rules and fluff in a the same paragraph - GW manage this all over the place.

Two thing.

Firstly, you can use it even if he's not deployed or dead. Why? It makes no mention of him being required to be in any condition including being on the board. Choosing him has the action of upgrading your Waaaaagh!

Secondly, the fluff and rules thing causes issues when it shouldn't. It says Ghazkhull's Waaaaagh!, yes, but then in the Tau Codex it says the Pathfinder Devilfish "allows Battlesuits to deploy with great precision" in the fluff and in the rules states "allows any Tau unit landing within LOS of the Devilfish to re-roll the Scatter Dice"

I've had a n opponent argue til he's blue in the face that 'only Battlesuits, i.e. XV8s and XV15s, can use the ability, not Gun Drones and Vespid, because it says 'Battlesuits' in the fluff'.

I don't argue that his Waaagh! replaces the army's, just that it only replaces the army's if Ghaz is alive to activate his Prophet power.

Nobz don't get FNP if the Painboy is dead, yet the Dok's Tools description on p.38 says he confers FNP to his unit. it doesn't say anywhere that the painboy has to still be be alive, or that the painboy's death makes the unit lose FNP, confer is just another word for give.

imo - it's the same for Ghaz. Prophet confers Ghaz's Waaagh! to the army the same way a painboy confers FNP.

-edit-
I play Orks almost exclusively, and would love for nobz to get FNP with a dead painboy, and Ghaz waaagh to work after he's dead, but imo neither is true. (Not that Ghaz has ever been dead before I called his Waaagh, haha)

don't argue that his Waaagh! replaces the army's, just that it only replaces the army's if Ghaz is alive to activate his Prophet power. "

There is nothing in the Prophet rules which states "while Ghaz is alive" "while Ghaz is on the board" or anything similar. Thus there is no support in the rules for this

"Nobz don't get FNP if the Painboy is dead, yet the Dok's Tools description on p.38 says he confers FNP to his unit."
Yes, meaning he needs to be alive; if dead "he" isnt in ANY unit. QED

If Ghaz if part of your army alive, dead, or otherwise you may call his Waagh at any time. Even Post-mortem

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:I don't argue that his Waaagh! replaces the army's, just that it only replaces the army's if Ghaz is alive to activate his Prophet power.

Nobz don't get FNP if the Painboy is dead, yet the Dok's Tools description on p.38 says he confers FNP to his unit. it doesn't say anywhere that the painboy has to still be be alive, or that the painboy's death makes the unit lose FNP, confer is just another word for give.

imo - it's the same for Ghaz. Prophet confers Ghaz's Waaagh! to the army the same way a painboy confers FNP.

-edit-
I play Orks almost exclusively, and would love for nobz to get FNP with a dead painboy, and Ghaz waaagh to work after he's dead, but imo neither is true. (Not that Ghaz has ever been dead before I called his Waaagh, haha)

Notice how the dok's tools let the painboy CONFER the FNP, implying that the painboy has to be alive to do the conferring. They do not REPLACE anything, as that would imply that they would benefit from the doc's tools after the painboy is dead. So then, what do the rules say about Ghaz? They say his Waaagh REPLACES the normal waaagh, and they do not mention anywhere that Ghaz has to be alive to call it. If they wanted to, they could have said that Ghaz CONFERS his waaagh on the army. They do not do so, however. Thus your analogy to the painboy is not quite perfect because of the common words 'confer' and 'replace', which are used in other rules as well.

YOU say that Ghaz confers the waaagh. The rules say his waaagh replaces the normal waaagh. It's not a power to activate, either, it's a special rule. A passive ability, insofar as it is simply his being in the army that replaces the normal waaagh.

The rules often do not make sense in the fluff, and we can't interpret rules based on the fluff. If you have to, justify it this way. The boyz get all hollered up because their Prophet just got killed. Of course that could only happen in an unfair fight, so the boyz need revenge... That'd cause one mighty charge.

Someone asked this question on another forum and it is fitting. If you take a Warboss you can take a mob of Nobz as troops. So if the Warboss gets killed do Nobz revert back to Elites as the WB is no longer around to keep them as troops?

Yeah, you totally get to call Ghaz's WAAAAGH after he's dead.

Arguing against it is just like trying to argue against SM's chapter tactics.

So everyone just discounts the "Ghazghkull's war cry..." part of the rule as fluff? Seems generous.

Like I said, I play Orks pretty much exclusively now, and almost never without Ghaz. If that's the majority I'll go with it, but it seems a very generous fluff distinction.

"Ghazghkull's war cry" part is totally fluff... Is the model literally crying WAAAGH to his fellow plastic and metal miniatures? Or, since we know that can't happen, should the player do so to confer the rule? Or do we have a rule that specifies the effect? A rule that specifies quite clearly, might I add.

I'll repeat myself. Fluff does not dictate how the rules should be interpreted.

It seems to be very tenuous to say that he doesn't even need to be on the board to activate his Waagh. If you don't need him to be in play then you don't need to have him in your army list. It's just a logical extension of your argument. If I don't have Ghaz on the board, for whatever reason, I'm still allowed to call his special Waagh.
Just saying.

I guess then if a Warboss dies his nobs revert back to elite choice and can no longer capture objective?

Since it says it replaces the normal Waggh, are you saying he gets no Waggh at all if Ghaz dies?

vossyvo wrote:I guess then if a Warboss dies his nobs revert back to elite choice and can no longer capture objective?

And if Vulkan dies, you lose twin-linking.

Sentinel wrote:"Ghazghkull's war cry" part is totally fluff... Is the model literally crying WAAAGH to his fellow plastic and metal miniatures?

Actually, if you read fluff or have played Dawn of War or its first expansion, that's exactly what happens. An Ork screams Waaagh! and incites the psychic fervor of Waaagh! energy through its troops. Waaagh! is more than just a special rule to a real Ork player. It's a slight tap into an unexplained, powerful energy that no other race in the galaxy uses. Ork technology works (sort of) because they believe it should, and for pretty much no other reason - as O'Reilly would say "you can't explain that".

Again, it's generous (too generous) to say that "Ghazghkull's war cry" is totally fluff just because you want it to be. To me, it's stating that Ghaz has to call the Waaagh!, and all arguments to the contrary are just wishful thinking.

Almost all the posts arguing against this are "it's fluff" or "he can be dead", or some pedantic deconstruction of minutia. Can someone with a brain debate me, please?