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Hey, i was in a 40k game today and my opponet fired at my thunderfire cannon, i couldnt find the thunderfire cannons profile so we checked around and we couldnt figure it out. how does wound allocation work with a thunderfire cannon and techmarine? in the entry it says that the techmarine can move and act freely if the thunderfire cannon is destroyed but how do you kill a unit without a profile?

It's an artillery unit.

You divide up the hits on the unit, with any hits that land on the cannon having to beat av 10. Any Glance or Pen destroys it.

I don't have the book on hand for page references. I'm sure someone will come along and clarify though

thats more then enough to clarify, i understand it now. thanks

Sorry Ascalam but your answer was not entirely correct

Check out p55 of the rule book. It states that for each hit on the artillery unit a D6 is rolled. 1-4 the hit is resolved against the artillery piece and 5-6 against the crew

Yea as doobo said you need to roll for were each wound lands.

Important to note, the unit only gives one KP, regardless of how it dies. Also if you put the techmarine in cover, the whole unit has cover. Very handy.

2 KP - the unit acts as a retinue.

The thunderfire canon is composed of the canon and the techmarine. You pay 100 pts and get both, neither being a retinue to the other. The BGB does not say artillery crews are retinues, so they are not. They are 1 KP, not 2.

-cgmckenzie

Yet it fulfills the definition of a retinue

The TM is a UC until the rest of the unit dies, at which point he becomes an IC. He cannot leave the rest of the unit while it is alive.

If the techmarine were an independent character while the TFC was around, it would be a retinue, as I read it.

Huh? No, in a Retinue an IC acts as a UC, until the unit is dead. Thats the main reason you cannot leave a retinue while it is alive - you're not an IC so have no permission to do so.

I don't think the TM is a UC while the TFC is alive. (gogo acronyms!)

The TM loses the IC and BotO rules while the cannon is alive. He's not an IC that you opt to purchase a bodyguard for.

Does the Techmarine have the IC rule? Yes (altho it's true that he cannot use it as long as the cannon is alive, just as any other IC with a retinue cannot use his IC rule as long as the retinue is alive.)
Is the Tfire cannon a unit that he is unable to leave as long as it is alive? Yes. Doesn't matter if it cannot be bought without the Techmarine, since we have had multiple examples of retinues that cannot be bought without the IC.
If the Tfire cannon dies, does he become an IC, able to move about and join other units? Yes.

Guess what. That means the Tfire cannon and Techmarine meet all the requirements for a retinue. 2 KP.

don_mondo wrote:Does the Techmarine have the IC rule? Yes (altho it's true that he cannot use it as long as the cannon is alive, just as any other IC with a retinue cannot use his IC rule as long as the retinue is alive.)
Is the Tfire cannon a unit that he is unable to leave as long as it is alive? Yes. Doesn't matter if it cannot be bought without the Techmarine, since we have had multiple examples of retinues that cannot be bought without the IC.
If the Tfire cannon dies, does he become an IC, able to move about and join other units? Yes.

Guess what. That means the Tfire cannon and Techmarine meet all the requirements for a retinue. 2 KP.

Thank you for going "showing your work" on why a TFC and a TM are 2 KP. I've got friend who often runs 2 TFC + a MotF... this might be a game changer for roughly 1/3 of our games

The unit, is, however, still a single unit without a retinue option. You buy a thunderfire canon(unit name) containing techmarine and the gun. The canon is not an upgrade to the techmarine, nor is it a bodyguard or any other definition of a retinue; it is an artillery piece.

The techmarine is not a retinue to the gun; he is simply the crew. He does not gain the IC rule once the gun is destroyed, he simply cannot use it until that point(wording in the codex is "does not benefit from the independent character and blessing of the omnisiah rules unless his Thunderfire Cannon has been destroyed'). He doesn't lose the rule by having the canon alive, he simply can't use it until the gun is destroyed.

-cgmckenzie

CGM - again, please read the rules that define what a retinue is. Nothing that you have stated is relevant to this determination

Correction, what I meant to say was if you kill the techmarine before the cannon, it's 1 kp.

This would be similar to Antaro Chronus. He is purchased as an upgrade character for a tank.
If the tank is destroyed you roll a die.
If he is killed, you get 1KP for the tank and nothing for Chronus, because you do not get KPs for upgrade characters.
If he survives the tank being destroyed, he becomes an IC and would now give up a KP along with 1 for the tank.

I have only played 5th ed and was not aware that retinues still existed. I have seen reference to them, but I thought they were a previous edition term.

Could someone direct me to where they are listed in the brb?

Page 48, bottom right.

Pg 48. They aren't listed, just mentioned. It is under the characters description.

As for the TFC and it not being a retinue, there are no UC or any other options purchased. If the TFC was an upgrade to the regular TM force org, it would be. As it is written, it is simply 1 unit composed of the gun and the guy; neither is an upgrade to the other, nor are they a retinue to each other.

The INAT FAQ, while not being GW is a well accepted standard for tourneys, has this to say on the matter:

SM.73A.01 – Q: If a Thunderfire Cannon is destroyed
does then killing the Techmarine earn an extra Kill
Point?
A: No, the unit is only worth one Kill Point total when both
models are killed/destroyed [clarification].

-cgmckenzie

time wizard wrote:This would be similar to Antaro Chronus. He is purchased as an upgrade character for a tank.
If the tank is destroyed you roll a die.
If he is killed, you get 1KP for the tank and nothing for Chronus, because you do not get KPs for upgrade characters.
If he survives the tank being destroyed, he becomes an IC and would now give up a KP along with 1 for the tank.

Incorrect. Reread Chronus rule carefully and note that he is ALWAYS an IC, regardless of whether you make the roll ornot

nosferatu1001 wrote:

time wizard wrote:This would be similar to Antaro Chronus. He is purchased as an upgrade character for a tank.
If the tank is destroyed you roll a die.
If he is killed, you get 1KP for the tank and nothing for Chronus, because you do not get KPs for upgrade characters.
If he survives the tank being destroyed, he becomes an IC and would now give up a KP along with 1 for the tank.

Incorrect. Reread Chronus rule carefully and note that he is ALWAYS an IC, regardless of whether you make the roll ornot

I did. Look at his entry on page 143. Unit Composition: 1, Unit type: Infantry, Special Rules: Tank Commander, not Independent Character.

Then re-read Chronus' entry on page 89 under the Tank Commander special rule; "Chronus is always bought as an upgrade..."

If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed, then he has the listed profile and the following special rules; ATSKNF, IC and COmbat Tactics.

He does not gain the IC rule, and so does not become one, until his vehicle has been destroyed and he is not slain but "...leaps clear at the last second..."

So, by this logic, if you kill a zzap gun and then the grots, that is 2 KPs as well?

And, what is the ruling on going the other way? (Assuming you agree the TFC and Techmarine are 1 KP, do you have to destroy both in order to claim the KP)?

Not really sure where I stand on this, just trying to get information / opinions.

Thanks.

Green is Best! wrote:So, by this logic, if you kill a zzap gun and then the grots, that is 2 KPs as well?

No, because Grots aren't Independent Characters.

And, what is the ruling on going the other way? (Assuming you agree the TFC and Techmarine are 1 KP, do you have to destroy both in order to claim the KP)?

If you don't count the cannon as a retinue, yes, you would have to kill both cannon and tech to claim the KP, since you have to destroy the entire unit for KP.

Time - no, try again

"If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the ... and the following special rules .... Independent Character"

The VERY INSTANT the tank is destroyed he gets the IC rule - before you make the roll.

If you kill the TM, the TFC will die, too(as per the artillery rules).

-cgmckenzie

And? That doesnt stop it being a retinue.

Again, read the retinue rules, and note all that is required: an IC that isnt an IC while the unit is alive, that becomes one when the unit dies.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Time - no, try again

"If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the ... and the following special rules .... Independent Character"

The VERY INSTANT the tank is destroyed he gets the IC rule - before you make the roll.

Nope nosferatu, this time you're putting the cart before the horse.
First-if the vehicle suffers a destroyed result, you roll a die.
Second-roll a die, on 1 or 2 he is slain, on 3+ he leaps clear.
Third-when the damage has been resolved, you place him within 2" of the vehicle's position.

He doesn't become an IC until the damage is resolved which takes place after you see if he survives.

Sorry, can you find the "when" in that sentence?

I've provided the pertinent rules quote, which only requires the vehicle to be destroyed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I've provided the pertinent rules quote, which only requires the vehicle to be destroyed.

Yes, "If Chronus' vehicle has been destroyed he has the above profile and following special rules..."

And "On a [roll] of 1 or 2, Chronus is slain."

So if Chronus is slain, his profile is {removed}.

How can a model that is removed have any profile or special rules?

For Chronus to become an IC, his vehicle has to be destroyed, and he has to roll a 3+ to survive the destruction.