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Thinking about selling my orks and getting dark eldar, any thoughts? What are the units in DE i should avoid like the plague?

Mandrakes...Just don't.

Grotesques aren't really that great unless you're specializing your army for them somewhat.

Chronos Parasite Engine thing unless you really try to make it good with a webway army.

Talos unless the above.

Reavers. Some people are real reaver fanbois but...I don't see the utility in them at all.

Hellions. Don't do it!

Scourges are iffy to me, some people like them.

Harlequins. As much as I wish it weren't true.......

Oh and the court of the Archon....So cool...So overcosted.

So the razorwings are viable? WOOT usually when there is something that cool on he field its useless.

Most people prefer their triple lance ravagers to the razorwing....Personally I'm partial to the razorwing jetfighter...Such a pretty model.

They're a little more fragile and you lose a dark lance but you gain the missiles which can rip a power blob apart. The main problem is that most DE lists don't lack anti-infantry fire to begin with so losing the lance for 40 some more points isn't a trade many people want to make. It's pretty viable to run one razorwing and two ravagers though.

I agree with almost everything that Braindeleted said except for the Hellions. Of coarse alot of this depends on how you want to run your army. I almost always take Baron Sathonyx and his hellions and it has worked great for me. Wyches and warriors are both good in their own roles. Void Raven and razorwings are always in my lists. I perfer Bloodbrides for my elite choice and always use Lelith or a sucubus with them. Also don't underestimate the raiders for transports, venoms not so much.

It really just has to do with your play style but a little note, I took 2nd in our local 'Ard Boyz with a very balanced list.

Nice! Do dark eldar have any real defensive builds?

BrainDeleted wrote:
Reavers. Don't do it!

Hellions. Some people are real Hellion fanbois but...I don't see the utility in them.

Sorry, I get my reavers and my hellions mixed up sometimes. Hellions are decent, I suppose, but beast packs seem to be a better choice to me and can even accommodate the Baron nicely. It is a matter of personal preference, of course, but based upon raw competitiveness, Hellions haven't won me over.


Edit, got ninja'd darn it.

If you're trying to be defensive with DE, in my opinion, you're doing it wrong. The army is about unadulterated aggressiveness. If you need to defend, you need to counter-attack and obliterate whatever is attacking you. DE armor only covers the naughty bits and the areola, not the best thing for stopping bullets. To make matters worse, they take to zooming around in paper planes. They can't really hold a position and defend. They aren't designed for that, even in the fluff. They strike and they strike fast and hard.

Skal098 wrote:Nice! Do dark eldar have any real defensive builds?

Not really. It goes totally agaisnt their ethos.

The main use for a dark eldar army is to hit first, hit hard and hope like hell you hit hard enough that no hit is coming back at you.

The best defense is a truly vicious, drug-enhanced offense

Razorwings are a mixed bag of tricks mainly because they are the DE's sole source of 48 inch large blast templates, and they aren't cheap.

Many people will argue that, point for point, they aren't worth it compared to Ravagers. I would tend to disagree. Then again, I also tend to run 6 biovores in my Nid list because I just seeing my opponent's expression when I tell him that he has to roll 11 wounds on his squad of Long Fangs...

The trick to figuring out if you should be fielding 1 or 2 Razorwing is to look at how many 36 inch Lances you have in your list. If you're a bit lacking, go for Ravagers. If you're fine with lances (at least 15-20 at 1750 points), have some points to spare and want some pie-plates, get Razorwings.

Voidravens are just the red headed step child of the a Ravager and a Razorwing, devoid of both the missiles and the 3rd lance shot. If the model looks cool, get it just to look at but not to play with, it is the Tyrannofex of the Dark Eldar codex.

@ Ascalam: Dark Eldar are more like a tsunami in that they hit hardest when they show up on the horizon (barely within range), pull back a little to draw the opponent in (no seriously, fall back in turn 2), and then crash down with full force on the expectant foe, pounding them silly in turns 4 and 5. Most people are so used to seeing DE just charge in that when you actually fall back, they inevitably think you're doing it to avoid being stomped so they chase you down. It's the Tau idea of patient hunter all over again. Lure them in, ROFLstomp them.

Wyches with a Haemonculus are normally the bait.

um.. voidravens have the missiles too, with more options and with a (semi-useless) void mine.

You do have to buy the missiles, rather than starting with them, but you have more to choose from

All I can really say at this point is that Mandrakes are downright awful.

Gorgeous models, but lousy rules.

Same with the Pyrovore

Tsunami tactics work, you're right, but they are hardly a defensive strategy against any army with mobility. On a standard table (6 x 4) the enemy closes the gap pretty fast, and playing keep away only workd so long.

I prefer a surgical strike method, with first turn kills against critical enemy units (sucking up the losses in return) , and more of the army lurking in the webway to jump out and do nasty things.

There are a lot of ways to make DE work to fit your mindset, but soaking damage while castled up doesn't work as well for them as other armies.

You'd have thought GW would try to make the most useless unit from the previous codex NOT the most useless unit in the new codex

After all the effort they put into giving them cool instead of ugly, ugly models too.

You're right, Voidravens do have missiles. I should have been more clear about what I meant so here goes.

To get a Voidraven a loadout that's almost as effective as a Razorwing's, you need to spend at least 40 points thus bringing the barebones cost up 195 points vs. the Razorwing's 155, and you don't even have the 6 Splinter cannon shots. No matter how you slice it, I can't see how the one-shot Void Mine or the Void Lances are even remotely worth a 40 point premium. If the Voidraven came with 4 missiles as standard equipment like the Razorwing for 160 points I might find it viable but then again, how much does a Vendetta with 3 twin-linked las-cannons and a full load-out of missiles cost? Nowhere near the same and it's got better armour. So yeah, the Voidraven is a total bust while the Razorwing can be truly devastating as an anti-infantry vehicle for its point cost, assuming you choose Disentegrators, Splinter Cannon and Monoscythe missiles. Even with one extra point of strenght, there's no way that 2 Void lances are worth 40 points more than a Ravager's 3 Dark Lances considering none of the bomber's weapons are twin-linked.

You don't need to be a Math Hammer expert to see how flawed the cost/benefit ratio is just not worth it on a Voidraven. Like I said before, the Voidraven is the Tyrannofex of the DE codex. It looks amazing on paper until you crunch the numbers and realise that it's just a point sink, something to throw points into only if you already have all the basic tools figured out in your list. Sad but true.




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Mandrakes and Pyrovores... so much potential, just wasted. At least the Pyrovores make great Biovore proxies

I totally get what you're saying about surgical strikes. Dark Eldar are basically rapier sword fighters. Look at the final duel in Rob Roy (the movie) to see how you need to deploy. The minute you play into your opponent's hand and dictate the battle, you're done. As long as you evade and focus your strikes precisely where they need to be in order to disable your opponent's ability to strike back, you're golden. Figuring out to strike the right balance between striking and evasion is what makes DE so rewarding. Once you've get it figured out, you can and will fly circles around your prey, even on a 6x4.

Yup.

Voidravens never make my lists. If they had a model i might consider it.

I tend to play a slightly risky game ( i like it that way) with most of my army in reserve, destined to WWP or zoom on and fire (ravagers, razorwings especially).

Regardless of ersonal tactics, DE played well can make most other amies look like chumps, as you cruise around side and rearshotting vehicles, and mopping up elite units like gravy If the dice go bad, or the enemy can out think you, you're hosed. They have little to no margin for error.

It's this tactical requirement that makes me love playing them It's no fun playing if you know you can screw up every turn a dozen times, and still win..

Why do you want to sell your Orks? I wouldn't sell them as an army unless you just flat out don't enjoy playing them. Selling armies usually leads to regret in most cases, since you don't get what you payed for them and you might get the urge to play them again.

I'd probably start an army small, getting some Warriors, Wyches, and Raiders to get things started. Play a few games before going balls-deep and selling off an army.

I would start by reading DashofPepper and Thor665's articles on how to play DE cause if you are planning on playing "defensive" DE then you are playing "dead" DE. Seriously though these guys articles should be required reading for new players. They will teach you what is effective and how to build your army properly so you don't waste your time buying units that end up being worthless.

Ascalam, truer words have rarely been spoken.

FYI, you're preaching to the choir. I have 4 armies (Tau, Nids, Crons, DE), and I consistently win with all of them. With the arrival of the new Necron I'm thinking that I'll only be winning with 3 of my armies if the current string of Xenos Codiices is any indication of how GW wants the game to be stacked in favour of armies that can screw up a dozen times per turn... After playing this game for upwards of 20 years, I'm convinced that Xenos is GW's code-word for "challenging the veteran gamer". How else could one explain that most xenos armies really do seem to face an uphill battle against imperial forces, no matter what.

Back to the OP, Talos can work somewhat if they're part of the support units protecting a 10-strong Kabalite squad near an objective in your deployment zone. By the same token, for roughly the same costs, you could buy a Venom and 5 wracks and have more firepower, more deployment options, and more wounds. It all depends on how you deploy your various choices.

Wyches with haywire grenades will seriously mess parking lots up on a multi-charge, though they inevitably die due to exploding vehicles.

Scourges work quite well with the right loadout. I suggest Haywire Blasters as long as you're not faving GK's. Otherwise either some lances. Ignore splinter cannons as you will typicaly have move than enough poisoned shots elsewhere in your list. If you need more splinter shots, look at 3 wracks and a venom before looking at buying those guns on Scourges. You'll save 30 points and gain an extra choice at the expense of 1 Kill point.

Ravagers. They are that good. At any game above 100 points, always run at least 1. Points-wise, they are your best choice if you only need to deal with vehicles.

Razorwings. A great hybrid slayer unit. Depending on the loadout, you can either focus on anti-av or anti-infantry. If you tailor your load just to deal with Marines, it's utterly devastating.

Trueborn. Always use them. Always put them in Venoms. Never take a squad leader. Just have fun with them, they are that good.

Warriors. Run them in 5's with a blaster or 10's with a blaster and splinter cannon. Put them in a Raider to keep them out of assault, plinking away at range. The only way it could get better than this is if Raiders with a lance, flicker field and night shield could somehow cost the same as a kitted out Chimera. Perchance to have a dream come true...

Reavers. They are a crap-shoot. When they work, OMG do they work well. When they don't, well, let's just say the grass is red where that used to be... I not an expert in alien languages but I'm pretty sure that evaporate in english translates to Reaver in the Dark Tongue. Oddly enough, if they get in range of a vehicle's rear armour, evaporate comes to mind once more, but in a fun way. Like most things in the DE codex, they are a sharp blade that breaks easily. Only buy them if you have points to spare. Build you army around their capabilities and you won't last long.

Hellions. They are crappy as a fast attack choice; m'eh as a troop choice; unless you attach the Baron to them. At which point they are very useful. Once you learn how to run pain token shenanigans to give them 2 pain tokens in turn 1, they are awesome. Only run 1 squad of 20. Give it the Baron. Your opponent will hate you. If you run them without the Baron, they are basically expensive Tyranid Gargoyles with slighly better guns.

Hope this helps,

P.S.: @ Skal, what type of units were you considering on running. Any hints could help focus the advice.

Ascalam wrote:

Skal098 wrote:Nice! Do dark eldar have any real defensive builds?

Not really. It goes totally agaisnt their ethos.

The main use for a dark eldar army is to hit first, hit hard and hope like hell you hit hard enough that no hit is coming back at you.

The best defense is a truly vicious, drug-enhanced offense

Best comment on how the DE play I have ever seen kudos to you sir!

I hear you on Xeno codexes. That's why i play them

Marines lost all interest for me a long long time ago, because they are too easy. I do have a small, small BT force, mainly for painting.

I run Necrons, Dark Eldar, Orks

I've found a small hellion suicide unit effective. Assault into a combat in progress, and hijack the IC. He will kill the unit for doing so, but then he's standiing on his own, and those Darklances and Disintegrators are waiting, especially if you can get him somewhere far from support with the hit and run.

It's a chancy maneuver, but it's payed off for me before

Your Hellions sound like my Wyches.

Put 7-9 of the drug-crazed wenches m in a raider along with a Haemonculus, a Hekatrix and a Sharnet. Aim for the the command squad. When it works well you end up killing a Captain, a Librarian, a Techmarine and his Thunderfire cannon in 2 turns before going to finish off a Typhoon in close combat. When it fails you end up tar-pitting a command squad just long enough to bring Lances and a twin-linked Liquifiers down on whatever survives. Either way, the wyches have done their job

And yes, in my mind, all imperial codiices are the equivalent of Staples. One Big Easy Button.

Seeing as how I actually like a challenge, I avoid all Imperial armies. Had it not been for Dark Eldar being done last year I probably would have gone for Eldar. In spite of what many people believe about that ancient codex, it's still got some great tricks going for it. I'm much happier with DE thus far if only for the fact that their vehicles really do work so well for sudden redeployments.

Similar technique

Any unit in the DE codex can be made lethal with a bit of thought, though some take more than others.

I love the hellion models a bunch, so i found ways to make them work for me A minimalist unit with a stunclaw attacking a combat alongside something scarier looking (Incubi, for example) will be ignored, until their prized HQ is taking a skyride


Craftworld eldar, played by someone intelligent, can be absolutely vicious, even for an old codex. You just need to know the unit capabiilitles, and use them in the right situation. My wife plays CWE.

Dark Eldar are much the same (for those new to them..the converted already know this)..

Find what the unit is great at, and make sure it gets the chance to do it.

Do unto others before they do unto you

Mostly the reason i want to sell my orks is to build up some money for DE. My main army as of now is Space Wolves. Always loved their fluff. But now i want to get into real playing and the fluff of the whole marine section in the 40k universe gets in my way, so i wanna start fresh with DE. I have orks cause originally my brother and i bough AoBr he lost interest fast so i took his orks, and built them up a little with a Big mek w/ Shokk attack gun, Which is hilarious. And i also bough some kans and bikes. They just aren't my play style. And On the DE i was just seeing if they had a viable defensive build. I do like the surgical strike thing about the DE. Dont hate me but my class on WOW when i still played was a rogue so the DE kinda hit home for me.

Is there a model for Vect?

And sorry about the wall'o'text.

No hate for rogue here, though i'm more for pathfinder than WOW. Think of them as a paper tiger. They put out obscene damage, and usually do it first, but they crumple to any counter attack.

There is an ancient model for vect i think, but few of the SC's ion the new dex have a model yet.

What wall of text? That was only 4 lines? lol

There is no new model for Vect yet. You either have to use the OOP one or convert your own.

In regards to your question about Dark Eldar's defensive abilities, let's just say they can "tank" just as effectively as any well-played, fully tiered rogue.


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I should that yes Eldar are the best codex to reference when thinking of "let's figure out what works and distill it even further".

No one has expressed more clearly than Shadowshard in one of his rare comedy posts...

http://wasted-knights.blogspot.com/2010/06/joys-of-melta.html

I am loving the DE more and more with everything im learning about them, another thought how does a completely mechanized army do for them, like the HQ that take hellions as troops, hellion squads reavers fighters and ravegers ar 2k, just build one on army builder, it looked fun as hell.

Completely Mechdar is almost mandatory unless you run with the Webway portal (Marker that lets reserves come through it). Footdar die and they die spectacularly.

Hellions are not your friends. One squad can work (Apparently, according to some people but definitely not according to me) but I cannot seeing an army based on them doing too well.

Mechdar is definitely the way to go. You get more mobility, tons more heavy weapons fire (by using venoms) and a bit more durability for your very fragile troops. An av10 vehicle with a 4+ cover save is more survivable than a t3 model with a 6+ save.

From my experience, Hellions can work quite well if you use the Duke with them. A squad of 20, properly supported will cause some serious damage to both vehicles and infantry. As for Ascalam use of Hellions I haven't run them that way but it seems like a fun tactic to use. I don't advocate taking more than the 1 squad of hellions to serve as the Duke's bodyguards as they are quite expensive.

Reavers are kind of in the same boat. They either do really well, thanks to their melta weapons, or they die really fast. 156 points for a fragile, 2-shot, suicide melta squad is pretty steep in price. Fill up on Kabalites in Venoms before you buy Reavers.

Post your army list up and we can help with any question you may have.

I actually dont have a list yet, I am working up the money to start buying what i need, still doing research etc.

A quick word of advice. Seeing as how Dark Eldar it's really easy to buy models that look really cool yet don't actually do anything worthwhile on the table except in very situational circumstances. Work on your list ahead of time. Only buy the list to start, then build from there. If I'd followed my own advice i would have saved about 150$ by now.