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Hi guys, here is my list. I would appreciate some feedback, and I have a question at the end.


Daemon Prince - Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Doombolt --------------------- 185

8 Thousand Suns + 1 Aspiring Sorcerer - Personal Icon, Gift of Chaos --------------- 279
8 Khorne Berserkers - Champion, Personal Icon, Powerfist ------------------------------ 213
7 normal CSM - IoCG, 1 Meltagun --------------------------------------------------------------- 125
2 Rhinos ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 70

Dreadnought - Multi-melta ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 100
3 Terminators - 3 Combi-meltas, 1 Chainfist -------------------------------------------------- 120

8 Havocs - IoCG, 4 Missile Launchers ----------------------------------------------------------- 210
2 Obliterators ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 150

TOTAL - 1452


As I mentioned I would appreciate feedback. My question: as you noticed, I have 48 points remaining, and I'm not quite sure what to do with them. I considered the following:

1) Adding a 4th Terminator with a combi-melta and an IoCG
2) Adding a 3rd Rhino
3) Turning the Terminators into champions
4) Adding champions to some of the units that don't have one.
5) Removing 27 points from somewhere in my list to make room for a 3rd Obliterator
6) I could also change the IoCG on one of my units to something more expensive

Thanks a lot for the help! This was spawned from this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/404347.page

As for models available to me (that I'm not already using in the list), I have 2 Chaos Spawn, 2 "normal" CSM models (could use for Havocs or whatever), and an HQ Sorcerer. I also only have 2 Rhinos, but could get a 3rd.

Man, that multi-melta is scary on your Dread... I really hope you don't roll a 1 and blow up a Rhino or kill a Oblit or something turn 1.

How does this grab you? I am even gonna leave in your Dread even though it will probably kill something valuable on your side when it goes crazy.

DP - 200pts
Wings, MoT, Warptime, BoC

TS - 227pts
4x TS, AS, Melta bomb, BoC, Rhino with Combi-melta

TS - 227pts
4x TS, AS, Melta bomb, BoC, Rhino with Combi-melta

Zerkers - 232pts
7x Zerkers, Champ, PF, Rhino with Combi-melta

Dread - 100pts
Multi-melta

4x Terminators - 165pts
3x Combi-Meltas, Chainfist, 2x Lightining Claws, MoT

Oblit - 75pts

Oblit - 75pts

Havoc - 165pts
5x Troops, IoCG, 4x MLs

1496pts

You might be able to squeeze in a 4th troop choice if you drop the Dread, the LC Terminator and the 2 Zerkers (182pts) and use them as a rear area objective camper. You can squeeze on a Rhino on them or just throw them in cover... 10 CSMs with a Melta gun and a ML with a IoCG is 180pts.

Looks cool, why split the Thousand Suns?

And in reference to the Dreadnought, I direct you to this thread! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/401653.page

Yeah... I stopped reading after 3 posts.

What ever they post, you can not ignore the rule of the walker. You roll a 1 and you shoot the closest thing twice...and the first 2 turns, your going to have the closest things. By turn 3-5, hopefully the enemy has closer stuff.

I have them, I have heard about them working. I even know about cheezy tricks like just running CCW dreads and running a Rhino next to it so it shoots bolter rounds at it or arming it with a Missile Launcher and shooting frags instead of kraks at Rhinos.

You want to run them, don't be shocked if it bites you in the arse.

I didn't split the Sons, I bought two squads of 5 men (counting the AS) in a attempt of getting you more troops. The list I was working on was two TS squads of 5 men and two Zerker squads of 6 men. I also had two DPs but after the Terminators and the Dread I had 1501pts with no long range AT or firepower, so I had to start cutting and yet keep the core of your list...

Ah, ok, makes sense with the thousand suns.

A recap of the thread I linked is that the Dreadnought (when it goes crazy) only shoots what it can see, and it can only see in a 45 degree arc in front of it (because walkers have facing and LoS is measured from the walker's guns). So, if there is a friendly unit within 2 inches and 90 degrees to the right, and an enemy unit 20 inches away and directly in front of it, the enemy unit gets shot.

well i've read through it, and they say this:

dreadnoughts can't see through their backs, so as long as you stay behind the dread, it can't harm you.

not exactly what they said, but close enough.

EDIT: damn ninjas

When firing a walker's weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that it's guns are aimed at the target (assume that that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45%, like hull mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along it's barrel, as normal for vehicles. This pivoting in the shooting phase does not count as moving and repersents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles. Keep in mind however that the walker will probably remain in this direction until it's next movement phase, so it's facing will determind where it's rear armor is going to be when the enemy returns fire!

pg 72 BRB

Fire Frenzy

At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe!) and fire all of its weapons against it - twice!

pg 40 CSM Dex

This means, you do not move the walker when you roll a 1, turn it (via pivot) to the nearest target. People are focusing to much on the 45% swivel of the weapon. The swivel and the pivot are two different things. The swivel is so you can be within 45% of your front facing after you pivot so your ass is not facing the enemy so they do not blow up your dread on rear armor shots. You can /maybe/ just turn to give side shots instead.

No where in the FAQ or in the books do they say your limited in the vision of the walker. Notice they are not listing page numbers of rules to back up what they are stating. They believe it works this way because they /want/ to believe it works that way (notice Darkhound's "I may be naive, but I want to believe GW had a plan. Firing Frenzy still supersedes the rules, just like in did in 4th; the only thing that's changed is what "visible" means."). Yeah... they say 'visible' so you don't do something like put a squad on the other side of a wall 3" away (that is blocking LoS to said unit) so some guy doesn't go 'Well, they are the closest unit so I unload harmlessly into the wall' instead of the unit infront of them that was 3" further away. The proper way to have listed this rule was 'Pivot on the spot and fire on the closest unit with LoS, friend or foe.' But Gav Thorp was to focused on nerfing Chaos after 3.5 then actually making clear rules and a solid codex. They are attempting to use semantics that they have to pick the target first (and thus limited by the firing arc of the weapon) and are just flat out ignoring the pivot rule. "Oh... I can't pivot because I can only pivot in moving...says so in the vehicle rules... oh ignore that it says something different in the actual walker rules? That is not the focus of my arguement and doesn't help me!"

BlkTom, we can have another YMDC thread about it, but you're mistaken.

Tangent, I'd say go Missile Launcher on the Dread. That way with Frag, even in the worst cast scenario you can minimize any danger to your other units.

There is no substitute for getting some practice games, but right off the bat I'd say the easy call to fill those points is a third Rhino, with a combi-weapon, probably a combi-melta.

Mannahnin, I don't feel I am, but I am not going to drag that thread here and will drop it.

I agree, just go ML or even two CCWs with bolters if you insist.

just a brief word on the subject the rule doesnt hinge on the movement or the swivel but rather on what is visible pre-pivot.

going off blktoms list
If you drop your termis down to the standard termicide (3 dudes 3 combi melt) drop mr dread (i only like them in pairs) and one zerker you can put in a squad of 5 plagues with two meltas in a rhino. i prefer them over CSM for objective campers, but its up to what you like

So before this thread gets closed for continuing the argument about Dreadnoughts (as I would like to keep this thread open to discuss my list), I will make an assessment and then say two things, the second of which will hopefully close this argument for the purposes of discussing my army list (you'll see what I mean).

Assessment

It seems to me that the big debate brought by BlkTom revolves around whether or not Walkers have 360 degree LoS like Infantry. The resolution of this point determines the argument's outcome, as it seems that people were in agreement that Walkers can only "see" what is within the 45 degree arcs of their guns. Further, no one is debating that the "Crazed" special rule in the CSM Codex changes what a Dreadnought can or cannot see based upon whether or not it has 360 degree LoS. In fact, the resolution of this point actually determines how the "Crazed" special rule will function.

First Point

We know two things. First, we know that the Chaos Dreadnought is a Vehicle, as per its listing in the CSM Codex on Pages 40 and 95 under "Unit Type." It is listed as a Vehicle (Walker).

Second, we know that 40K uses a "permissive ruleset," which means the rules tell us what we can do, as opposed to listing everything that we cannot do. Because of this, we assume that the Dreadnought is a Vehicle unless the rules specifically allow us to do otherwise. For instance, the rules have specifically allowed us to move the Dreadnought in the same manner as Infantry, instead of moving as other Vehicles move. My belief is that just because we are allowed to treat the Dreadnought as Infantry during movement, this does not mean that we are allowed to "overreach" on this allowance and treat the Dreadnought as Infantry for other things that the rules do not specifically address (such as LoS). Further, the BRB specifically mentions other special allowances and exceptions (such as only being able to fire within 45 degree arcs), but never says anything like, "Walkers draw LoS like Infantry." Again: the BRB never says anything similar to this, and so we must treat Walkers as Vehicles for everything that the BRB does not specifically address as being different from the way in which Vehicles operate.

Final Point

So, I believe that Walkers do not have 360 degree LoS like Infantry. I am convinced, and will be attempting to convince my gaming group. So, for the purposes of discussing my army list, please assume that my group will be using the rules as I put forth above, and not as put forth by BlkTom.

Please factor this into your assessment of the usefulness of the Dreadnought in my list and give advice appropriately!

Thanks in advance for all the help, guys. I was sleeping when that other thread was closed, so I couldn't offer my point there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for the advice about the rhinos! Steve, what if I could get a second Dreadnought? Would that change your advice?

Oh, and just last night I won an eBay auction for 5 more Terminators, so I will have 10 Terminator/Obliterator models at my disposal.

nice writing there. and your right about it all.

Thanks!

i have yet to try two dreads with MM, but my new list has three of them sooo yeah i want to try them! now its been a long time with no sleep over here but i THINK if you drop the termies to standard termicide, change prince to lash prince instead of tzeentchy guy and drop a zerker you can have your pair of dreads. im interested to know how it goes so if you get a chance to test the pair of them out before i do you should post it so i know if they are worth it!

I decided to pick up a third rhino and give that a shot by adding it in with the combi-melta. That brings me to exactly 1497 points, which is pretty good. I might play this weekend, so I'll update here when I get a chance to let you all know how it goes.

Steve, did you get a chance to try your 3 dreads?

Those CSM would best be served with 10 men and another melta gun. An IoCG will also help them from being run off the table...

Tangent, no im still deployed, but they are waiting back home. i know they will be very killy, so im excited for it haha

The CSM already have an IoCG and I can't afford 10 dudes in there!

So, I'll be playing this army for the first time this upcoming weekend, and I'll be playing against IG and Tau.

The two things that I'm most concerned with are both from Tau. The first thing is that this army has two units of crysis suits with these weird Tau plasma guns at S6 and he always seems to get a million dice on them. These same units have some kind of missile things that also add a million dice but at, I think, slightly lower strength.

The second thing is that this army also has one unit of 3 robot men with twin-linked railguns. I think these are S10 and, when combined with markerlights, will hit. The other game (that I played before I changed my list) he used these on my Dreadnought in turn 1 and blew it up.

So I guess my main concern is that he will position his units such that he can turn one of each of the above three units on each of my rhinos in the first turn and do some serious damage. The railguns are guaranteed to glance (and almost guaranteed to penetrate) the rhinos. Plus, the crysis suits with the stupid plasma guns have that damn assault move, so they can usually drop back behind cover after they shoot.

I planned to start with my CSM, Thousand Suns, and Berserkers all inside of their rhinos and just try to hide behind LoS blocking terrain, but I know that I'll probably have to make at least one mad dash across open ground at some point very early in the game (when he still probably has all of his units remaining), and I'm scared about it.

Suggestions?

Against Tau, your suicide Terminators will do well. Drop them next to the unit your worried about the most and light them up with the combi meltas.

Find the marker units and take them out early to cripple his shooting. Also remember Tau blow in close combat, so get stuck in asap. This may mean moving your Rhinos 12" turn one.

if you get first turn smoke popping is good. but in an ard boys round i faced a tau dude, he popped all but one trnasport in the first round and i had to make a mad dash for him on foot. using terrain and the natural resilience of plague mariens i managed to table him turn four. so morale of the story, if you lose all your transports early yeah it sucks but its not the end of the world. hope to god you get first turn, and dont be afraid to use terrain to your advantage. the three broadsides will eat one tank a turn most likely. but those s6 plasmas are not scary to your rhinos so dont worry about them too much. meltas like to eat those suits btw haha.

So, rush forward as soon as possible and use terrain for cover (or smoke launchers) if possible.

The broadsides with railguns have a 2+ save, if I remember correctly. And the stupid shield drones! I don't think the broadsides have any, though.

What do you guys think about deployment? If I don't get first turn, should I deploy as much as possible behind LoS blocking terrain, even if it slows my approach by a few inches? Or should I deploy in the open for the extra speed?

So, I finally got a chance to play this list against IG. Long story short...

The termicide unit was great - deep strike in, can't move/shoot result on Manticore, got blown up (almost) by Marbo, then charged the Manticore with chainfist and exploded it. Died in the explosion. Win!

Rhinos definitely prolonged the survival of all of my units. Thousand Suns never died, Berserker unit survived until the final turn after being slowly whittled down, and the sole remaining model took the battle cannon off a Leman Russ by himself.

Daemon Prince was great with Warptime and Doombolt, never died but came close. Gift of Chaos worked once!

Dreadnought never died, but didn't do much. Rolled Fire Frenzy twice so he was basically useless for the entire game. I might change the multi-melta to a missile launcher, as the 24" range of the multi-melta is a bit short for a weapons platform.

Obliterators were... underwhelming. I usually used the lascannons and I was able to shoot with them in every turn except one. I kept trying to kill the Leman Russ but the closest I got was immobilized one turn. Otherwise, they also killed a scout sentinel. Very "meh" for the points, but they're pretty scary, I guess.

Havocs with missile launchers got unlucky and were essentially useless the entire game EXCEPT they killed a Medusa in the final turn of the game and they served to contest the capture point that won me the game.

I ended up barely edging out a win on this game (we were playing capture and control). It was a good game, but I definitely didn't feel as though this list was more powerful than my old, crappy list. Maybe it was just inexperience with the list? We'll have to see.

Any insight?

I think I'll take the Multi-melta off of the Dreadnought and replace it with a missile launcher, as the shorter range hurt me that game. I actually rolled fire frenzy twice in 5 turns, and one of those two turns the Dreadnought was too far away to hit anything with the multi-melta.

good plan.

Also, I was able to convince my group (consisting of me and 2 other guys) that Fire Frenzy works the way I say it does. One guy didn't care at all, but the other guy (who I expected to care) did. We wrangled about it for awhile, and in the end the BRB supported my argument and not his. He grudgingly accepted... and that's when I realized that people don't agree with this ruling almost purely because they just don't WANT to. Weird.

maybe you should ask them if you could use the greater daemons and the troops in codex daemons with your army (summoning them like summoned daemons)

Okay just to clarify...the rule for the dread going into fire frenzy is not as scary as it used to be (FAQ). Yes it shoots the closest thing in its LOS. They do not have 360 LOS. its basically 45* of of each side or a 90* cone arc to the front. So as long as you position him correctly and are conscious of your movement yo will be fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CHAOS SPACE MARINES: CHAOS DREADNOUGHT (page 40)
CSM.40A.01 – Q: Will a Chaos Dreadnought
suffering from ‘Fire Frenzy’ pivot to face a target
directly behind itself (if that is the closest target)?
A: No. The Dreadnought selects the closest target within
the 45-degree arc of fire of any of its weapons and then
pivots to face that target [clarification].

big mek crazygit wrote:maybe you should ask them if you could use the greater daemons and the troops in codex daemons with your army (summoning them like summoned daemons)

Why do you say that?

quickfuze wrote:Okay just to clarify...the rule for the dread going into fire frenzy is not as scary as it used to be (FAQ). Yes it shoots the closest thing in its LOS. They do not have 360 LOS. its basically 45* of of each side or a 90* cone arc to the front. So as long as you position him correctly and are conscious of your movement yo will be fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CHAOS SPACE MARINES: CHAOS DREADNOUGHT (page 40)
CSM.40A.01 – Q: Will a Chaos Dreadnought
suffering from ‘Fire Frenzy’ pivot to face a target
directly behind itself (if that is the closest target)?
A: No. The Dreadnought selects the closest target within
the 45-degree arc of fire of any of its weapons and then
pivots to face that target [clarification].

What the hell? Where did you get that FAQ? If this is real I'm gonna JUMP UP AND DOWN.

Its the INAT FAQ most current version from right here on Dakka. Its the FAQ the most major tournaments use including ADEPTICON. It contains all the GW info plus additional clarifications.

Problem is most people still try to relate old 4th edition LOS rules to the current system.