Please advise: My CSM vs. Cheese eldar

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**lordrevege**

Tommorow my glorious CSM will go against the foul Eldar.
I have never gone against a serious Eldar player, and all I know about this guy's army is that he's going to be fielding cheese up the wazoo.
Any helpful Eldar killing tips woul be great.
I enjoy the aggressive edge my army gives me (if not needs me) to take, but could bunker down if need be.
My 1440 list at the time is as follows (still figuring out how to fill the 60)

LOS winged prince
LOS sorceror w/ 7 plague marines, champ w/ and combi plas + 2 plas guns and base rhino
Plague marines with cloned gear and rhino
9 zerkers, champ w/ fist + 2 plas pistols and rhino w/ havok launcher
Vindicator w/ havok and daemonic possession
Vindicator w/ deamonic possession

If we end up doing a 2,000 pt game, I will definately be fielding
Havoc squad w/ 4 missile launchers (not sure how many meatshields I want to put in this squad)
Chaos dread w/ multimelta and heavy flamer (yes, I am aware of how angry he tends to get)
Either some CSM for pointholders
Or terminators to defend my vindis

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually its a lot closer to a 1400 point list.

**Ashiraya**

Seems like a good chaos army. could use something that can take out Dark Reapers before they can mush your havocs. take Raptors as a nice diversion, or give something wings and throw 'em in. Obliterators are nice too. Suppose you could use your Daemon Prince, but he is great at protecting the Vindicators.

**lordrevege**

Dark Reapers? are they Dark Eldar or Eldar?
I'm going against Eldar.

You know, I'm not quite sure what to do with Mr. Prince.
The enemy always freaks out when they see him and fire everything at him.
He dies by turn four,

but his lash makes him worth it, as he guides targets for the vindis.
Using him to protect the vindis seems logical, even though i'd like to make good use of his wings.
bleh

**akaean**

Heh, I hate to break it to you, but Eldar haven't been "cheesy" for quite some time. The biggest, scariest, and strongest builds Eldar can put on the table pale in comparison to what can be done by GKs, BA, IG, SW, and DE.

That said Eldar can *seem* very cheesy, what with psychic powers letting em re roll just about everything, its just that they pay through the nose for almost everything in the codex except Fire Dragons.

So uh, what kind of Eldar army is your friend playing? Is it a big wall of wraith? or is it about 8 Grav tanks? The strategies for both are quite different...

In general, Oblits are Dragon Bait. You are better off with Havocs with Auto Cannons. Auto Cannons can reliably threaten everything in the Eldar Codex.

Close combat is where you want to be. You can best every Eldar unit in close combat except for Howling Banshees and Harlequins. However both of those units will crumble to a rapid fire.

If you are up against Grav Tanks, you are going to be dissapointed in your Vindicators. Their high strength is reduced to s8 because of the Wave Serpent Energy Fields and you've got one shot that you are hoping won't scatter.

you can probably count on mechanized Eldar, so in that case if you want to build your list towards defeating him you need as many ways to pop open av12 as possible. Missile Launchers, Auto Cannons, Melta Guns. Lash isn't particularly useful against optomized mechanized Eldar because all you are going to see are 5 man Dire Avenger squads in Wave Serpents, and 5 Man Fire Dragon Squads in Wave Serpents. And you can also expect more Scatter Lasers than you can shake stick at- which are really effective at blasting demon princes and rhinos, but ineffective against plague marines.

Place as many objectives as you can in the middle of the board, rush it with your rhinos, and fortify it with your Plasma Plague Marines and watch him sweat as he tries to sift you from there.

**lordrevege**

Thanks akean.
I'll admit I don't know the first thing about Eldar, and this advice you have given me will be very helpful.

**Sephyr**

My experience:

Princes can be brought down very easily by bright lances, starcannons and fire dragons. You have to either be very careful wuith them and screen them, or use them as suicide units. They also will lose against the Avatar unaided.

The main trouble here is that Eldar are VERY mobile and CSM are not. You will need to mass lascannons to keep their transports and tanks stunned or cracked, so oblits in good positions are very helpful.

Using vindocators against T3 models with 4+ or 5+ armor is overkill, but the large blasts can clear them nicely. against a good opponent, though, you'll rarely have range.

Outflanking chosen with a few flamers and plasma can be a good bet to kill guardians blobs and put wounds on the avatar, or even hits vehicles in the rear armor. Psykers will be shut down by any farseer, so don't rely on them.

It's a tough match-up.

**lordrevege**

Sephyr wrote:My experience:

Princes can be brought down very easily by bright lances, starcannons and fire dragons. You have to either be very careful wuith them and screen them, or use them as suicide units. They also will lose against the Avatar unaided.

The main trouble here is that Eldar are VERY mobile and CSM are not. You will need to mass lascannons to keep their transports and tanks stunned or cracked, so oblits in good positions are very helpful.

Using vindocators against T3 models with 4+ or 5+ armor is overkill, but the large blasts can clear them nicely. against a good opponent, though, you'll rarely have range.

Outflanking chosen with a few flamers and plasma can be a good bet to kill guardians blobs and put wounds on the avatar, or even hits vehicles in the rear armor. Psykers will be shut down by any farseer, so don't rely on them.

It's a tough match-up.

I head they have some sort of psy hood equivalant. Should I just ditch my psykers all togehter? LOS is rad for vindis but they can operate without them.
I know my opponent will be feilding this. Is it very reliable?

**Flavius Infernus**

The Eldar psychic defense (runes of warding) forces you to make your psychic tests on 3d6 instead of 2d6, and any total of 12 or more is a perils attack. It has unlimited range and works as long as the Eldar player has a farseer on the table.

Not sure if you're suggesting that vindicators don't need line of sight? They do need line of sight--their gun is ordinance, but direct-fire. Eldar laugh at vindicators not only because, as mentioned, your shots at their main transports are reduced to str8, but also you don't get your second die on the penetration roll versus those tanks, and your range is only 24". The majority of Eldar guns have 36"+ range, and all their tanks are fast, so there's no reason that you should ever even get a vindicator shot at an Eldar tank. He can easily skim around the sides/rear of your vindi and punch through the weaker armor from beyond your range.

**lordrevege**

Flavius Infernus wrote:The Eldar psychic defense (runes of warding) forces you to make your psychic tests on 3d6 instead of 2d6, and any total of 12 or more is a perils attack. It has unlimited range and works as long as the Eldar player has a farseer on the table.

Not sure if you're suggesting that vindicators don't need line of sight? They do need line of sight--their gun is ordinance, but direct-fire. Eldar laugh at vindicators not only because, as mentioned, your shots at their main transports are reduced to str8, but also you don't get your second die on the penetration roll versus those tanks, and your range is only 24". The majority of Eldar guns have 36"+ range, and all their tanks are fast, so there's no reason that you should ever even get a vindicator shot at an Eldar tank. He can easily skim around the sides/rear of your vindi and punch through the weaker armor from beyond your range.

My use of LOS: Lash of submission.
Thanks for the psy defense info.
Hmmm. And their mobility has been noted.
Excellent intel

**Slothy**

From my very little experience I can tell you that outflanking chosen with meltas and flamer have prooved very usefull as well as raptors with flamers and powerfists. Psykers have always failed (ok maybe some bad luck to blame there), demon princes usually were shot before doing anything admirable.
What gave me the most trouble was prisms (take those out as quickly as possible) and wraithlords (DO NOT get in melee with those unless you have powerfists or poisoned weapons-cause of their 8 toughness-better try shooting them).

**Sephyr**

Daemon Princes can be good, but you'll have to play them very conservatively. Always keep them in full covers. They are faste rthan the rest of the army and you can use them to pop tanks if you can catch them, or tie up a guardian blob.

As noted, farseers are a royal pain, and very common. However, remember that anything S6 and above can insta-kill them. I once forgot that plasma cannons (S7) did that and let them live after the whole farseer/council unit took wounds.

Wraithlords are ungodly strong, but they are slow compared to the rest of the army. Lascannons, rapoid-fire plasma and meltas will kill them if you play a bit of keep-away and focus them (they have no inv save), but each turn you shoot them is a turn in which you are letting other stuff live. Missile launcher Havocs can also help you here, and with the vehicles, given their good range. Just place them well.

Luring other units into positions they can get fired at by the Havocs is a good option, but it may require sacrificing some units...

**DarthSpader**

stuff that hurts eldar as chaos... well i cant say for sure really since i dont play eldar, and havent played against them in ages. i do however play my DE vrs chaos all the time.

the stuff thats most effective vrs my army, and hence what i try to kill first would be a good place to start.

- obliterators. they have good T and crazy shooting. deployed in cover are VERY hard to shift. take as many as these as you can.

- plauge marines. they have t5 wich makes str 3 eldar cry. most things wound on 5+ or require heavy cannons like starcannon, pulse lazer etc. shurkien fire dont cut it, and with FNP it makes them tough. as many as these in AC razor backs is good idea

- autocannons! they can do bad things to eldar vehicles, and are cheap enough (i think?) to field alot of. cram as many as possible

stuff to avoid taking:

- vindicaters are great on meq...but eldar can either avoid them, stay out of range or pop them fast with lance fire.

- princes. big units like that will draw every lance and pulse lazer in the eldar force. he will die by turn 2.

- psykers. unfortunitly this gets rid of lash, but really youll most likley be casting on 3d6 picking the highest so lash wont work a good amount of times. and really anything you could lash around will probally either enjoy being closer, or wont mind getting farther away. its only benefit is the pinning check, but you wont win by unreliably pinning eldar, since they have decent LD

i would suggest a good mix of havocs with AC, obliterators, plague marines in AC razorbacks, and a bunch of chosen with plasma. in ALL cases KEEP -YOUR - ARMY - TOGETHER!

resist the urge to split up and "outflank". eldar are faster and will just divide and counquer. but if you keep your army together in one big force, it makes the eldar play your game, by avoiding your gunline of AC, or face it all at once. dont let him isolate and pick off units that are by themselves.

alot of those tips are DE related, but the eldar and DE share alot of traits, speed, S, T and such. hope that helps.

**Cypher's Sword**

I actually quit CSM to play eldar so maybe I can help a little here.

take obliterators, they are great, deep strike one WAAyyy behind enemy lines and pop off either an HQ or a troublesome tank then let them die.

The other posters are right you going to want to make a wide rhino wall around your main troops and cram them into the objective. Your best strategy in going to be:
Objective, wrapped in plague marines, wrapped in shooty marines, wrapped in something like rhinos, use the rhinos to block line of sight, and if they get wrecked the eldar will have to come in and get you with CC. If they start charging your bunker hill with harlies, drop some oblit and flamer that gak, otherwise they'll be coming down on you with WS 5 S4 rending attacks, usually around 20 of these. Other notes, if he's playing bikedar with a jetbike seer council, well lets just say that target priority atuomatically shifts.

eh, just rambling, but hope it helps.

**lordrevege**

Hmmmm.
It seems that I would have to scrap most of my loadout to deal with the eldar

With 3D6, Lash seems to be a thing of the past.
And no vindicators?

Maybe if I face him in a smaller point battle.
I have a Khorne Lord with Daemon weopon I can field, and I will try to convert a few termies into oblits, seeing as Errrryybody praises them.

**akaean**

Eh, if hes playing Wraith wall, your Vindicators may be well worthwhile. If hes got an army based around a big squad of troop wraithguard, a few Vindicator shells can potentially cripple him. But as has been emphasized, Vindis are rather meh against Eldar's mechanized elements.

I would really hesitate to advice using Oblits against Eldar.

1) Obliterator Weapons loose their charm against Eldar Transports

This is because the Las Cannons get reduced to strenght 8, and you don't get 2d6 with your melta guns.

2) Eldar have the perfect anti Obliterator Unit

Fire Dragons will kiill your Obliterators incredibly fast. Fire Dragons cost 16 points per model, and are all armed with bs4 melta guns. I can promise you that if you are relying on Obliterators every Fire Dragon in the Army is going to be line for your Obliterators- and most Eldar players run 2-3 squads of these. They are perfect for wasting Multi Wound squads with a good armor saves and poor invulnerables...

What I'm saying is that placing the majority of your Anti Tank capabilities in a unit whose guns lose a lot of special rules against Energy Fields, AND are very vulnerable to the most commonly seen Eldar unit is not good.

EDIT:

I also wouldn't say Demon Princes are bad. They have a great charge range, and with wings are very fast. They will certainly threaten the Eldar and that is important. Remember to keep them hidden behind rhinos so they get cover from AP 1-3 shooting.

Remember, everything shooting at your prince is not shooting at your transports. Most competitive Eldar armies as I stated above are goign to have 2-3 squads of dragons, and a ton of scatter laser tanks. The dragons will hit what is most vulnerable to melta / most dangerous / resistant to scatter laser fire. The Scatter Lasers are what will be primarily directed at your Prince and Rhinos. The more Scatter Laser shots that go into your Prince are Scatter Lasers not being used to slow down your rhinos. Keep your forces together and force the Eldar into a corner.

Plague Marines are really where its at against Eldar. They are resistant to Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Fire, t5 means that even if your enemy has Banshees the girls need a 6 to wound, and they have to deal with defensive grenades. Although interestingly I think counter attack bypasses defensive grenades... so don't charge them! Even if your princes get shot down, and eveything else is lying wasted in craters. Against Eldar you can still probably walk up the middle of the field with 3 squads of Plague Marines and take his objective... And he will be very very hardpressed to stop them. Especially if you kill his Dragons every time they nuke something.

**lordrevege**

akaean wrote:Eh, if hes playing Wraith wall, your Vindicators may be well worthwhile. If hes got an army based around a big squad of troop wraithguard, a few Vindicator shells can potentially cripple him. But as has been emphasized, Vindis are rather meh against Eldar's mechanized elements.

I would really hesitate to advice using Oblits against Eldar.

1) Obliterator Weapons loose their charm against Eldar Transports

This is because the Las Cannons get reduced to strenght 8, and you don't get 2d6 with your melta guns.

2) Eldar have the perfect anti Obliterator Unit

Fire Dragons will kiill your Obliterators incredibly fast. Fire Dragons cost 16 points per model, and are all armed with bs4 melta guns. I can promise you that if you are relying on Obliterators every Fire Dragon in the Army is going to be line for your Obliterators- and most Eldar players run 2-3 squads of these. They are perfect for wasting Multi Wound squads with a good armor saves and poor invulnerables...

What I'm saying is that placing the majority of your Anti Tank capabilities in a unit whose guns lose a lot of special rules against Energy Fields, AND are very vulnerable to the most commonly seen Eldar unit is not good.

EDIT:

I also wouldn't say Demon Princes are bad. They have a great charge range, and with wings are very fast. They will certainly threaten the Eldar and that is important. Remember to keep them hidden behind rhinos so they get cover from AP 1-3 shooting.

Remember, everything shooting at your prince is not shooting at your transports. Most competitive Eldar armies as I stated above are goign to have 2-3 squads of dragons, and a ton of scatter laser tanks. The dragons will hit what is most vulnerable to melta / most dangerous / resistant to scatter laser fire. The Scatter Lasers are what will be primarily directed at your Prince and Rhinos. The more Scatter Laser shots that go into your Prince are Scatter Lasers not being used to slow down your rhinos. Keep your forces together and force the Eldar into a corner.

Plague Marines are really where its at against Eldar. They are resistant to Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Fire, t5 means that even if your enemy has Banshees the girls need a 6 to wound, and they have to deal with defensive grenades. Although interestingly I think counter attack bypasses defensive grenades... so don't charge them! Even if your princes get shot down, and eveything else is lying wasted in craters. Against Eldar you can still probably walk up the middle of the field with 3 squads of Plague Marines and take his objective... And he will be very very hardpressed to stop them. Especially if you kill his Dragons every time they nuke something.

Finally a ray of effing sunshine.

Thanks for pointing out HOW I should use my units instead of WHAT units I should use(that I don't have

)

**DarthSpader**

+1 to the above... although i will mention that said fire dragons "usually" pack in a falcon in small numbers. if you can knock those falcons down, even just immobilize them, it prevents those meltas from getting in range. if you see 3 falcons, check what gear they have. standard kit if i recall correctly is holofields and spirit stones (so you roll 2d6 for damage and take the lowest) and stones i think ignore stunned/shaken or reduce it somehow. so as long as you can immobilize the falcons it makes the dragons job tougher. also keep in mind a falcon is around the 150-180 pt mark with those upgrades depending on weapons. (might even be more) and dragons in a 6 man team with an exarch + upgrades is probally 170+ with 3 of those its a good chunk of his army.

but regardless i suggest keeping your force together. using a prince as a hammer unit might be effective, but i would leave him with minimal gear since he WILL be shot at and killed very quickly.

another trick to look for are vypers. with scatter lazers and shuriken cannons they can throw out a crazy amount of str 6 shooting. ive seen them used in squads of 3, and those guys can shred any infantry they come across. the downside is they are armor 10 and open topped, so perhaps if a vindi would be good on those. missile launchers as well could be your friend for shooting down vehicles, then fragging the contents. eldar typically have 4+ saves or worse, and toughness 3. so massed frag missiles can work wonders on them.

**Godless-Mimicry**

Flavius Infernus wrote:but also you don't get your second die on the penetration roll versus those tanks.

Just as a note, you do. Energy Fields means you never get more than 1D6 penetration however Ordinance does only get 1D6 as you choose the highest of two.

**PhrycePhyre**

As you mentioned 'cheese', for eldar that makes me think of seer councils, best counter for that is probably termies, because witchblades don't negate armor saves afaik.

Edit: 1k sons might be good too, they just negate everything's armor save.

(also are resilient vs reaper/dragons) I'm not sure how cost-effective they are though given that I don't actually play csm

**Araenion**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Just as a note, you do. Energy Fields means you never get more than 1D6 penetration however Ordinance does only get 1D6 as you choose the highest of two.

I'd dispute that. You still roll 1+ dice, which is what Energy fields protect against, it doesn't matter how many of them you actually end up using. This belongs in YMDC, but I've never heard anyone playing differently than 1d6 for Ordnance.

**rana dandra**

Just as a note, you do. Energy Fields means you never get more than 1D6 penetration however Ordinance does only get 1D6 as you choose the highest of two.

However the rule for energyfields specifically say that the rules for ordenance does not aply, you still only get one roll and you just have to stick with it.

Sry we should not try to derail the thread with this argumentation. I have tried a game with my Eldar against my buddies Chaos and it's an interesting matchup of two old dexes. I definitely aprove the above said. You don't wanna go for psylers as he just dicks around with your rolls. oblits is not really worth their points against eldar me thinks, unless you deepstrike them behind him but after their one glorious turn of shooting they will dissapear... you need to either stay as an immovable object with the plauge marines and schtuff or become an unstoppable object that crushes everything in it's path.

Just my two cents and good luck with the matchup