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So... I've been working on a wild west skirmish game for the last year or so. I'm just waiting for 1 last piece of artwork from one of the artists helping me out, and then 1st edition the rulebook will be all done. I have an updated and expanded website ready to launch when I have the book done (click me for a preview). I'll be releasing the basic rules free online, and looking into some print on demand services for people that want a real book that will have some extra fluff and be all full color, that should cost like $20-25.

I want to get miniatures sculpted for the game. Been talking with a few sculptors lately, and I always felt when it comes to these kind of games it's the minis that sell it, so I'm going to be using some of the top sculptors out there, who also charge top prices. That means I can't afford to get a lot of models sculpted. So I came up with 3 different ideas...

My first idea, was to commission 1 super-omg-awesome sculpt and produce that, as a show off kind of thing, so customers will know the quality of miniatures I'll be making later. I think this is kind of like how Kingdom Death started. But then I thought, in a game where you need 5 models to start a gang, who's gonna buy just 1 and then wait? I'd intend to then release 1-2 more models each month though to slowly grow the line, but still.

So I thought, what if I get 5 sculpted. And package all 5 as a "starter gang", which makes sense since you need 5 models to start a gang. That'll be around $1500+ in sculpting costs, not even including the mold making and casting.production (another $1000 or so. Yuck. But then, with only 1 starter set available, will people want to start a game that only has 5 models? I'm sure there will be early adopters, but it will probably take a while to just break even with just that 1 set, let alone try and fund the next 5 sculpts.

So then I thought, what if I get 10 sculpted, and have 2 starter gangs available, and also sell the individual models separately on the website too, bitz-order style. This is the option I'd like to start with, but the costs are way beyond my reach. I could do a kickstarter, but needing like 5K or more to kick start it.. and I don't know that too many folks will want to pledge money for something that is more or less vaporware still.

So, anyway, I was just throwing this out there for ideas if anyone has any to share Obviously, I'm on half-a-shoestring budget, but at the same time I want to produce a high quality product and I know there's been enough interest in the game to make me think I can actually make money, but right now I'm just leaning toward option #1 because it's what I can afford and I really hate the idea of getting a loan or credit. I'm one of those crazy people that pays cash for everything

So what would you do? or if you were thinking of starting a new game, what would it take to get you to want to buy it?

Cool minis is the key, that are reasonably priced of course. Are you thinking monopose metal minis? If so, I'd suggest rethinking that. If you do multipart minis, that allows you to have more gaming minis with less sculpts in the long run. Also, monopose minies is going to limit the appeal in the current era of multi-part plastic/resin/finecast miniatures that have been becoming more common in recent years.

They will most likely be monopose, at first anyway. Well sort of. Like, I'm hoping to include different arms when the pose & sculpt warrant it. A guy aiming a rifle for example, the body and arm positions will make it that it has to be sculpted as 1 piece. But, a guy holding 2 pistols could come with separate arms where you could have him holding melee weapon instead, that sort of thing. So, it will depend on the model really.

I'd love to do multi part plastics, but I'm just not willing to sell a kidney yet However, plastics are my ultimate goal, some day. After the game is more established and I can afford that. I need to start small and get the best possible sculpts with the little bit of cash I have.

http://www.frothersunite.com/
http://forum-of-doom.com/index.php

You'll get some good pointers from sites such as these.

Some basic minis, a better character along with some conversion bits maybe the way to go.

I would suggest 5 or so awesome minis so you can have one show piece or each gang, and then either produce lesser quality minis for rank and file or link to another company that has some good quality minis that would fit the theme, until you get some income to finish the line.

Since you're doing a scale and genre others have done, have you considered just doing a 'version 0.5' release with minis from other vendors (who will probably appreciate you pushing business their way) and concept art, plus maybe a couple minis of your own if needed for iconics and similar then using the profits to promote a 'full version' with extra goodies and a more complete minis line?

Kind of what I was thinking if I go with 10 models..

there's 6 different professions (like classes in a RPG, etc) in the game, and then henchmen who are like just basic townsfolk types, you need at least half of your gang to be henchmen. So I was thinking, the professionals would be the killer sculpts with extra arms and cool poses, henchmen would be more basic (and cheaper).

So the 5 man starter set would come with 2 henchmen, 2 professionals and a leader.

I'd like to be able to sell each model separately though, so players can pick and choose the ones they want in their gang, later on when there's a lot to choose from. Just not sure how I want to package them.. 1 per blister? or 5 crammed in a big blister or small box, and you can bitz-order separate models on the website. I'd probably do the latter, at first anyway since packaging costs add up fast. Heck it's $750 just to be able to get retail bar codes on your products..

I've been posting on frothers, that's where I found a bunch of great sculptors


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Balance wrote:Since you're doing a scale and genre others have done, have you considered just doing a 'version 0.5' release with minis from other vendors (who will probably appreciate you pushing business their way) and concept art, plus maybe a couple minis of your own if needed for iconics and similar then using the profits to promote a 'full version' with extra goodies and a more complete minis line?

Yes, in fact that's more or less what this about-to-be-released release is going to be. I got permission from Black Scorpion Miniatures to use their models in the game photos, and in return I'm talking them up on the website, linking directly to their online store, etc. They have a whole line of great wild west minis. In fact, at first I was thinking I would just resell their minis on my own online store and use them exclusively, but in the end, there's a lot of parts of my game that aren't covered in their models.. like melee weapons for one thing. There aren't many, but they are in the game. So, starting my own line of minis will allow me to have what I know will match the game best, etc.

I've been develpoing my own game and this really helped me! I'd love to get some advice of you

1 tip I could give is to not use Bleeding Cowboys on your website. For some reason that's always the first thing people seem to go for when they need a grungy font.

hehe, I like Bleeding Cowboys I used it for the chapter headers in the rulebook too. My 2nd choice was Mesquite, I used that for the tagline in the logo, but I don't like how the letters are so thin.

here's an older sample of what the inside pages look like...

It seems like you could spruce it up with some Papyrus.

Necros wrote:So what would you do? or if you were thinking of starting a new game, what would it take to get you to want to buy it?

Personally, if I were in your position, I wouldn't be going for your own miniature line. Especially in a historical scene, where there are already some great minis out there, and unless yours are significantly better quality or lower price you'll have a hard time breaking into the market. I think that most game+minis pairings come out of a miniature company, rather than a rules company.
Instead, I'd try to partner up with an existing manufacturer and get going that way. Black Scorpion Miniatures make a wonderful wild west line, and I'm not sure they have a dedicated rules set to go with it.

I say get a box of 5 sculpted. make them available only as a box of 5, at first.
The bodies can be monopose or in pieces. Either have it all in separate bits that can be mixed & matched or have the torsos as one piece, but with 6 to 8 heads and about 10 different arm choices (15 to 20 arms). This will allow YOU to only put out one box, while allowing the purchasers some leeway to assemble the models however they want.

At first, stick to all male or female models. This will allow the greatest amount of swapping between sculpts.
Make them appropriately sized, and people may buy them for Malifaux alt. models.

Best of luck.

Eric

Black Scorpion makes some great minis. I contacted them a few months back about selling their models on my site and using them as the official models of the game, but never heard back. They did however give me permission to use them in photos for the game, so they're all over the rulebook. But even though they have so many different sculpts they have nothing to cover the melee aspects of the game and specialized professions.

I do want to be a miniatures company though, I just started by making rules since it was cheaper that way I'm planning several different games all based on this same ruleset that will come later, also a boxed game similar to Space Hulk where you build your own board, using the same rules and all but just with 1" squares on the board pieces instead of making you measure everything.

I'm starting to lean more toward the 5 model idea too. But, there's 6 professions in the game, so maybe I'd just get 1 model done for each profession instead?

Or I could start out with just 3 models, doing 1 profession and 2 henchmen.

I like the idea of a starter set with 5 models, but at the same time since the game lets you add whatever you want to your gang, I think a lot of players will want to pick and choose who they want. So that's why I was thinking I'd do it like a small box or overstuffed blister of 5 models, and then do bitz-order style ordering for separate models on the website.

Everything you just said you want to do sounds like my idea would fit it to a "T."

Eric

Been thinking about the 3 model method now, I'm starting to like the idea more. The game has 6 different professions/classes plus henchmen who are you generic followers / cannon fodder. At least half of your gang has to be henchmen, the rest can have professions if you wish. So, I'm going to need a lot of different henchmen models.

Starting to think, at first, it may be better to start out with 3 models, like a Bounty Hunter profession, and 2 henchmen. A month or so later, the Gambler and 2 more henchmen. Keep going till all 6 professions are released and then get into the starter sets, and stuff like that. The henchmen models would be more basic, like just a guy/girl with a gun and the model would just be 1 piece mono-pose.. but the professions could be more advanced and come with extra bitz, maybe each could have an extra arm or 2 so players can give have different weapon options.

And as far as selling them I think I'd have 1 profession model in a blister, but henchmen could come with 2 in a blister. So, not doing a starter box set kind of thing right off the bat will also help me save a bunch on printing costs, etc, till the game gets off the ground.

If half of the gang has to be henchmen, why would you double the amount of henchmen in a pack, compared to prof. models? Why not make them 1:1?

I'm still thinking you could maximize usability by making swappable arms for the prof. models. Seems like monopose (or close) on the henchmen might be an excellent deal. Might just save you some money, too, since they'll be less complicated.



This thread had me interested enough to download the pdf to take a peek, but I decided against it. Frankly, it's just my nature to opt out of things like this whenever I have to join a site to do it.

Eric

Hi Necros, I would suggest starting small and not expecting lots of sales from the get go, slowly built up some models and factions I think MERCS miniatures is a good example you should look into... Use and abuse gencons to built up interest.

I was thinking getting 1 professional and 2 henchmen done at a time, it would give more variety to players later on.

And then more than likely 1 henchman will be cheaper to produce than 1 professional, since henchmen will be 1 big sculpt, but professionals would most likely have a couple of optional bitz added to it, which means extra molds, extra casts, etc, so they'd cost a little more.

The packaging will add to the cost of the model too, so I could offer a blister of 2 models slightly cheaper than if I offered 2 separately. Then, people would order "Henchmen with Pistols" instead of "Hemchan with Pistol 1" and "Henchman with Pistol 2". Guess I'm just trying to plan out the most inexpensive way to produce the models, while giving customers a good deal at the same time.

As far as signing up goes, no problem and I feel the same way with most things. Even though it's the earliest stages right now, I'm trying to start off in a way that can build a community around the game. I'll be adding forums and more pretty soon. I built the site around the Wordpress blog software that has all kinds of add ons and goodies for that kind of thing, it's what Beasts of War uses to run their site, among many others. I can also tack on an online store package too, so when I have models available the people that have signed up won't have to sign up again if they want to buy something, etc. I'm not going to be using it for spamming people :p I personally hate spam in all forms, even the kind in a can. I'll be doing a newsletter that gets emailed to announce new products and things like that, but only to people who sign up for it.

Hi Necros, I would suggest starting small and not expecting lots of sales from the get go, slowly built up some models and factions I think MERCS miniatures is a good example you should look into... Use and abuse gencons to built up interest.

This is my plan actually going to be starting very small and building up slowly. I figured I'd start with local cons and just do some demos and take it from there

Ouze wrote:It seems like you could spruce it up with some Papyrus.

You need to be beaten with a Wacom 'til you stop twitching.


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Single pose should be fine. I would expect a lot of your potential market will be historical gamers, who are used to single piece minis. Multi-part models allow for more dynamic variety which is great for adding variety to large armies, but cowboys are more about personality; sculpt a good model that tells a bit of a story and it should get the attention it deserves.

Besides, it's cheaper. Make a bit of money on the initial offerings before making the next big leap.

It does seem to take some time for mini companies to become established. The folks that make Infinity have been at it for years, and things there are only now starting to really get going.

I would take one of two approaches. The first is to release the rules in an electronic format. This would require essentially no investment at this point. You could proceed by investing in producing more e-books, developing the rules and fluff.

The second approach is to go all out and to make a good number of figures. I would say that 10 would be the minimum. You need a certain critical mass of figures to get started and get noticed. You also need to remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so by producing a bunch of figures you are more likely to produce a figure that appeals to a customer, than producing one ultra mini that you consider perfect. Another point is that if you have too few items for sale the shipping costs will be a substantial amount of the sale, thus turning off potential customers.

I don't mean to discourage you, but I personally would opt to just publish the e-book. If there is interest, then invest in creating the figures.

Although plastics are nice for conversion, in small scale games the cost of the minis is not particularly important. Thus I would not advise going for plastics. You would be much better off with a bunch of different metal or resin minis. I do not mind one piece sculpts as long as they are good. They can be preferable to multi piece metals that are difficult to assemble and keep in one piece.

In terms of starting a game, I look for fun rules, neat fluff, a well produced product, and minis that I like. Surprisingly, it has taken me time to get into Warmachine, because I had trouble finding minis I liked. (I guess that I am picky.) Thus, I generally prefer games with a good number of releases. Some games just catch my eye, such as Atomic Cafe 1957.

One last note, if you are interested in western stuff, I thought that I would mention Rail Wars, a 90s skirmish western game set in the Deadlands universe.

We started by releasing two miniatures and showed off basic rules with them at local conventions and what not. We slowly continued to release models while working on the rules so that when we were ready to release the rulebook we had a decent amount of choices available.

Since your dealing with what I assume will be 28/30mm Humaniods I'd suggest going with 2~3 models, you'll be able to fit that many into a single master mold which is going to be the most expensive aspect of casting. You'll want to maximize the space you have in Master Molds to keep your costs down.

Well, I did publish the free ebook rules already, just finished them a few days ago. It did cost me a bit though since I had to pay for some artwork, nothing too bad though. I have it on my site now at http://www.blackwatergulch.com

The book on there is a full color, high quality PDF. I'll have a more plain text ePub version for tablets and other handheld things done in a couple days. Also waiting on some printed proofs from Lulu.com and CreateSpace for print-on-demand, so people can order a printed book if they want one. Looking like it'll cost around $20. I'll get a small cut from the sale, but print on demand isn't the greatest profit-wise, I'm mostly offering it because it costs me nothing to do, and it's there for the people that want it.

I was looking into Deadlands, seems like a cool game. I wanted to go the more historical route and less "weird west" I guess what I'm after in the end is more like "Necromunda in the Wild West"

Make sure to look through Lulu/CreateSpace's rights documentation. They used to have some dicey 'We own the rights to everything you publish through us' rules.

Oh heavens...

I read through it, but I must have missed it. I was under the impression that I would be fine as long as I didn't use their ISBN services and got my own instead, or none at all and just printed up a few copies at a time to resell myself.

I may have to look into some other options then if that's the case.

I know that you said you were giving the pdf away for free on your site, but you may want to consider selling the digital copy for a small sum of money. Using it as a hook to get people to buy the minis is a good idea, however, if it is free then people may not think that it is worth while. Have you looked into drive thru rpg or amazon as sales portals?

One advantage of developing the system, and fluff is that you may be able to make a deal with a miniature company to license the rights to make figures for your game. Although you would not make as much money as if you made them yourself, you would not have to put up the money to make the figures.

!@#$ Thats YOUR GAME!?

Awsome work on that one, I've been using it for a few months now. THANKS for the work you put in on that one.

I have the download of your game.

Seriously? I would recommend getting in touch with Black Scorpion, and coming to some sort of an arrangement. To me THOSE are Blackwater Gulch figures.

I use a few Reaper guys and am waiting on my Tombstone line,( along with thier cool pirate line for Cutlass.... plug plug plug...)

Been jonesing for the rulebook since last week.


As for the scenery, I used "davestown" as inspiration and am having a time with the game. (Works double duty for Malfaux.)

Great effort again, Thanks

Actually for now, the free PDF is the full quality version but it's still "preview rules" for a reason. Eventually, what I would like to have is a bigger rulebook full of fluff and modeling info and all that stuff, but still at the very least some basic free rules on the web. Or even "quickstart" rules, but this will all come much later. Right now since it's so new I think the free rulebook thing is a great way to get people interested, and I can let the game grow from there. In the 3 days or so since I put up the new version I've had a few hundred downloads already. Right now I just want to get it in front of people

And thanks I did contact Black Scorpion, they gave me permission to use their models in the rulebook and stuff. I did ask them if I could sell their figures on my site as the official models for my game, and never heard back. I dunno if I should take that as a no, or as a we never got your email. I'm guessing the former.

But, in the end, my game features a lot of things that aren't in their models, namely melee combat. Big, burly, bald men with handlebar mustaches running around hitting people on the head with sledgehammers might not make you think of the wild west, but all mashed up together I think it makes for a fun setting and also makes the combat a lot more lethal and fun

So, yeah I have lots of plans but I really want to take it slow and do it right and not get too far ahead of myself or my wallet

Dammit, you are really making me reconsider joining the site! LOL

Eric

Is there a way to make multipart cowboy models, or does a company already make them?

How much would either, sculpts of body parts, such as those made by Victoria Lamb, or out and out figures cost to make on multipart sprues?

I am seriously considering getting some of those perry models, and using them for some of the cavalry guys. Already on deck for a couple of the houses.

As to the site, I like it, and there are some good links there.