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HQ: Emperors Champion, AAC - 140

EL: Ven. Dreadnought, TL Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Tank Hunter, Smoke Launchers, Searchlight - 169

TR: 10 Initiates, Multi- Melta, Plasma Gun, Frag Grenades – 254
- Rhino, Smoke Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile

TR: 9 Initiates, Multi- Melta, Plasma Gun, Frag Grenades – 227
- Rhino, Smoke Launcher, Extra Armour

FA: LS Typhoon – 70
FA: LS Typhoon – 70
FA: LS Typhoon – 70

1,000

I'm a brand new Black Templar player, and I'm loving them to bits. Part nostalgia (my first mini's were BT, back in 3rd ed), part due to the awesome paint scheme, and partly because I love how the fluff portrays them as Fascist Space Catholics, which is always how I've imagined Space Marines.

I also like how they're not a partially popular army, which makes the indie inside of me quite happy.

Right, moving on. I'm going to be completely honest and say that I haven't really had all that much good experience playing, I switch armies too much. As such I'm not really a very adapt tactician, which is were my lists tend to fall down. I'm able to pick units that can work in a general strategy, though I don't tend to use them very well and I really need to start thinking 1- 2 turns ahead. Any general tactical suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

I've written a list with the' take all comers' approach in mind, which is why there is such a love for missiles. Reasonable anti- tank that also doubles up as good anti- infantry, whilst I don't have much experience with missiles, one of my friends has told me of his success in taking down both vehicles and marines by torrenting wounds on units with frag rounds using Long Fangs. They also allow me to blow away horde armies (read, BW orks), which I've always had real trouble dealing in the past lists with other armies.

The special weapons seems to me a little unusual, I don't think I've seen a plasma gun and multi- melta in the same squad. However, at this points cost, I believe its worth it. AV10/11 is much, much more common at 1,000 than AV 13/14, so I'm not such a fan of the meltagun at this points cost. Getting that close to a tank to kill it when you can get a longer ranged weapon just as effectively doesn't seem a good idea to me. However, you have to come prepared for high armour, there is always someone who has a LR at 1,000 points, and BW are viable.
So the plasma/melta combo allows the rhinos to be nice little transport killers, with a reasonable range. The lack of melta somewhat worries me, though I think I should be able to counter this with the manoeuvrability of the Land Speeders to hit rear armour and effectively strength 10 and 9 guns on the dread.
Not only do the plas/MM add a nice anti- tank, but will also bring a much needed low AP shots to the army. If the two Rhinos gang up on a unit in rapid fire range, you have 6 shots, with 4 hits which wound on a 2+ and ignore armour, killing 3.3 marines or 2.2 terminators. I'm not sure if that is good or not at this points cost, seems ok to me...?
What's also interesting to note is that because you can't assault and fire the plas/MM, it means that you can be 6" away from an enemy in the assault phase and not have to charge them because of AAC, which I think can be a good bit of information to know in case such a situation arises.

The dread does what he says on the tin, and I've got a feeling that this guy is going to get shot at a lot. The S10 TL lascannon adds some really nice long range anti- AV 13/14, coupled with a strength 9 missile launcher and a sturdy base I think this guy is great. I think the smoke is a really important upgrade, as this guy may take a lot of shots that will be re- rolled and so end up stunned or shaken a lot, and the smokes allows him cover his arse whilst he sits around like an oversize washing machine. Plus, its 3 points...

The frag grenades and vehicle upgrades are mostly points filler, had about 50 or so left over when I finished the list and couldn't fit anything else in.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for the replies in advance.

The Typhoons aren't your best choice; blast weapons are rather inaccurate and spending 210pts on 3 S 5 AP 5 blast templates is rather inefficient. You may want to consider dropping some of them and take a Predator or another Initiate squad instead.

The Black Templars are supposed to be an up-close in-your-face sort of army, if you're in a situation where you'd be close enough to assault but you don't want to you're generally better off charging than letting the enemy get the charge. The multi-meltas are short-ranged and limit your mobility, they're the worst heavy weapon in the Space Marine list; you probably want to swap them out for power fists. Using the shooting from both of your Troops units to take out 3.3 Marines is actually pretty bad (putting almost 500pts into killing maybe 45, you're never going to make the points back on those units).

The Black Templars are optimized for building a mostly mechanized list and rushing the enemy with nasty, nasty hits-on-3+ Initiate squads with hidden power fists; generally your strategy should focus on getting your troops into close combat quickly.

The land speeders get 2 shots, and double up as good ani- tank, so 6 S4 Ap5 blasts or 6 S8 Ap3 for 210 points. Counting how many points made back by just kills is silly and simplistic. If those 6 blasts kill enough orks in a squad so that they my initiates can charge them and survive, then they will make their points back.

Can the multi- meltas in the rhinos fire if the rhino has moved 6", because that is a deal breaker with its range...? I really need some ranged anti- TEQ, because I just don't have the CC ability to deal with units like Mephiston.

Typhoons do not fit nicely into BT armies, I have to agree.

But they are dirt cheap, for any army you most likely have them but at this points range they are first pick.

Maybe try lascannons instead of multimeltas just so you have the option of sitting back.

I'll have to totally disagree about the land speeders. From what little I've read on BT, one of the more popular builds is 3x5 Terminators with 2 Cyclone Missiles each, TL Las Razorbacks Initiates squads with a Lascannon and Plasma guns, and cram in as many LS Typhoons and predators as you can. I think that the land speeders are really great value for points and are really are needed as nothing else will allow me to have quite that many anti- tank shots. Black Templars (game wise, not fluff wise of cause...) are a shooty army with a solid counter assault. Against Grey Hunters and BA assault squads of a similar points cost they will loose, so I don't want to invest in going for sub- par assault, unless of cause its for fun games (20 man Crusader Squads all the way!).

I think I may go with lascannons, I don't think I can move and fire with the multi- melta when sitting in the rhino, which means range is really important. I thought about a power fist, but even if it is cheaper I'm only getting 2 attacks on the charge, and most of the time one won't hit. I think lascannons are a much better investment, they just don't look as cool as multi- meltas...

Bit of math hammer, if I fire all my AP 2 (plasmas rapid fire, lascannons and the dreads lascannon), then I end up with 4.074 wounds vs MEQ or god damn Mephiston, and 2.71 dead terminators, with missiles included I don't think this is so bad baring in mind that this is their secondary fuction.

AnomanderRake wrote:The Typhoons aren't your best choice; blast weapons are rather inaccurate and spending 210pts on 3 S 5 AP 5 blast templates is rather inefficient. You may want to consider dropping some of them and take a Predator or another Initiate squad instead.

The Black Templars are supposed to be an up-close in-your-face sort of army, if you're in a situation where you'd be close enough to assault but you don't want to you're generally better off charging than letting the enemy get the charge. The multi-meltas are short-ranged and limit your mobility, they're the worst heavy weapon in the Space Marine list; you probably want to swap them out for power fists. Using the shooting from both of your Troops units to take out 3.3 Marines is actually pretty bad (putting almost 500pts into killing maybe 45, you're never going to make the points back on those units).

The Black Templars are optimized for building a mostly mechanized list and rushing the enemy with nasty, nasty hits-on-3+ Initiate squads with hidden power fists; generally your strategy should focus on getting your troops into close combat quickly.

^ is probably thinking Pre-FAQ.

One great advantage we have is the ability to do 5 Man Las/Plas Squads, I try and use at least one or two of these squads a game. I also suggest some Predators, they always work wonders for me, or, if you want to get a little beardy, run a Vindicator with PoTMS and Extra Armour. Sexy vehicle that can always move and shoot it's big cannon.

@Sekai Yeah I thought that as well, the hitting on 3+ sounds likes someone still stuck in 4th edition!

5 man Las/plas units, especially with a TL las razorbacks, are sweet, though I think they are something you take only when you can afford at least 3-4, meaning they're something to take around 1750- 2000 points. My gut feeling is that you should have at least about 20 marines at the start of the game, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with less. Auto/las predators are a good option, I feel that I'm going to have to play a few games with the land speeders and then a few with a couple of preds to really see which I prefer; its a little like comparing apples and oranges.

Not such a fan of the vindicator build, its only really effective against infantry, and anti- tank is the priority. Also, if it gets a weapon destroyed result then its only good for tank shocking and you don't really need the extra armour on it if you have PoTMS! I do really like them though, I'd probably field them in apocalypse in a 'unit' of 3 long side my 20 man crusader squads because its so bad ass!

Extra Armour makes it so that the vindicator always can move. I believe that our PoTMS has been updated as well, if you check the FAQ. Five man Las/Plas are only 101 points without the lazback. I have trouble justifying the points for Razorbacks, because they are so overcosted. You can buy a predator for nearly the points of a Lazback. I'm testing out my Black Templar tonight on Vassal, testing out the Vindicators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
180 - Marshal with Adamantine Mantle, Terminator Armour, LC/SS
140 - Emperor's Champion with AAC

201 - Venerable Dreadnought with Lascannon, Heavy Flamer, Tank Hunter, Extra Armour, Searchlight Drop Pod
481 - 5 Assault Terminators with 4 LC, 1 TH/SS, with Furious Charge and a LRC, Search Light

224 - 9 Crusaders with Meltagun, Powerfist, Rhino, Extra Armour
101 - 5 Crusaders with Las/Plas
141 - 5 Crusaders with Plas/HB, Rhino

140 - 2 Land Speeder Typhoons
140 - 2 Land Speeder Typhoons

126 - Predator Destructor with two Lascannon Sponsons, Search Light
126 - Predator Destructor with two Lascannon Sponsons, Search Light

If your interested in what I'm trying out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(2k)

Typhoon Landspeeders are one of the best weapons in the BT arsenal, don't listen to the naysayers. Yes the army is supposed to be CC oriented, but its rules make it function better as a gunline.

How do you dare having grimaldus in signature pic and playing a shooty list?

I love how the "Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot" is the guy praising land speeders, and Grimaldus doesn't dare get close because of all the dakka!

Damn, its so awkward with all the FAQ updates, I would be tempted to write in my codex when it arrives but it wouldn't look pretty. I might stick post it notes in the codex next to relevant stuff so its all in one place...

Good luck with your games Sekai, I've got a 2,000 point list written but I want to get a functional 1,000 one sorted as the club I play at has set a points restriction at 1,000 because of lots of new players and it means that games get played quicker; increasing popularity means that tables are premium. I post my 2k one some other time in another thread.

I've written up another list, not to replace the other one but just as a point of comparison. However, I don't really feel 100% comfortable about it. I feel like I'm loosing a lot for the increase in fire power. Also, just thought, tank hunters makes the terminators storm bolters S5 vs tanks like raiders, venoms and rhinos, which is a nice bonus.

Which do you think is better, the old or the new?


HQ: Emperors Champion, Suffer - 125

EL: 5 Terminators, 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, Tank Hunters – 265

TR: 5 Initiates, Lascannon, Plasma Gun, TL Lascannon Razorback, Smoke Launchers – 194
TR: 5 Initiates, 1 Neophyte, Lascannon, Plasma Gun, TL Lascannon Razorback, Smoke Launchers – 204

FA: LS Typhoon – 70
FA: LS Typhoon – 70
FA: LS Typhoon – 70

998

sHOEbOX wrote:I love how the "Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot" is the guy praising land speeders

Haha, I'm more of a Vindicator/Rock player, but I'm also not a competitive player, the few BT players that did well at Ard/Nova took advantage of the incredibly efficient 70pt Typhoons.

Also, just thought, tank hunters makes the terminators storm bolters S5 vs tanks like raiders, venoms and rhinos, which is a nice bonus.

Wow, I've never once considered that, granted I don't really remember it mattering much, but still I nice bit of info to have.

Why do people like the Terminators. IMO I don't think they are worth their cost, I'd rather have assault cannons dakka or just going with Tri-las Preds(cause ours are cheaper) going with 3x2 Typhoon LS, and the rest being TL-LC Razorbacks with Las/Plas Squads.

AchillesFTW wrote:Why do people like the Terminators. IMO I don't think they are worth their cost, I'd rather have assault cannons dakka or just going with Tri-las Preds(cause ours are cheaper) going with 3x2 Typhoon LS, and the rest being TL-LC Razorbacks with Las/Plas Squads.

They are slightly harder to kill. Also they can move and shoot which fits the idea being suggested.

At some points range you should have 3 or even more typhoons, 3 preds and 2 or 3 termy 2CML/assault cannon squad. You just have your cake and eat it too apart from trying to sort out expensive transports for your troops.

Sorry, I am not a naysayer on the typhoons, by the way, more that having light armour in a heavy armour army doesn't feel right: target saturation etc. They still are too cheap not to include.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/406712.page