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are hellions and the razorwing worth using in DE

You can write a list around them, yes, but they are not topically the first choice, since ravagers are generally considered to be better, and the fast attack slot have a lot of other, sometimes more useful options.

If you're running a fluffy army then definitely.

Most people don't really like Hellions in a competitive list because they don't really add much without the Baron in there to give them stealth so they don't get shot to death. And once you add the baron you're getting into putting way too many points into one unit.

Razorwings...I'm a believer that one can fit into a good build but generally they're seen as too expensive when compared to ravagers and they also have one less dark lance...And typically you want as many DL's as possible in a DE list. Dunno without an accompanying list or the gist of one.

Hellions can definitely work. Hopefully it goes without saying that without the Baron they are a complete waste of time, from your Fast slots Scourges are better if you want a shooting unit, Beasts completely outclass them in assault (and are faster and tougher) and Reavers are probably more dangerous allrounders or melta hunters (depends on your build). I've seen lists with multiple units of them used successfully, as well as lists which use a single large unit of them as a Deathstar. Baron, 15+ Hellions + a Haemonculi + a unit of Wracks for the Baron to steal a Token from (deploy with the Wracks, move the Baron into coherency with the Hellions and you get 2 Pain Tokens off the bat). With Combat Drugs they are pretty solid in combat, they are better than Wyches as far as damage output in assault and better than Warriors at shooting. Their main issues are a lack of anti tank ability (other than S4+ attacks in combat, which isn't ideal) and the lack of an invulnerable, which means they have to be very careful taking on heavy hitting units.

Razorwings are most definitely competitive, but like most of the Dark Eldar codex you have to build your list properly to remove weaknesses/maximise strengths. A standard Kabalite list can easily swap out 1 Ravager for a Razorwing, you just change a couple of Venoms to Raiders to make up the balance of Dark Lances. Equally if you are taking 3 of them then you probably need to carefully tweak the rest of your list to make sure you have enough anti tank. The dual role issue isn't a huge problem imo, because the missiles are single shot you are only really 'dual role' for 1-2 turns. As a bonus the missiles are 48" range, which actually means you can avoid fire for a turn (unlike anything else in the DE army, which can never avoid missiles). Either way you can always change to Disintegrators + Splinter Cannon to go for a pure anti infantry role.

depends on your play style and the rest of your army. just looking at a single unit wont really give you an idea of things.

yes hellions are decent FA, thier ability to seperate IC from units is nice. they also add some nice mobile splinter fire, and can keep up with your fast moving vehicles. however the lack of power weapons makes them unlikley to really wipe a squad, and they lack the durability of the wych 4++. however they are also one of the few DE units to have base str 4 in CC.
to use them effectivly, they need help in CC like wychs or incubi.

the jetfighter is decent. ive used it in a few games. the loss of a lance and increase in points over the ravager makes it less attractive then the ravager. but, the addition of anti infantry missles and splinter cannon make it a touch more versatile.

It depends on what you want to do with them. I'm assuming that you want a competitive army for tournaments or some such, since you're asking for advice.

In which case, there are other things in the codex that do what they do better, for cheaper.

They have their uses, but but wouldn't be the number one choice.

I can't speak to the hellions but I've gotten a lot of utility out of my razorwing fighter. I run it with the stock weapons plus a flickerfield.

It can be particularly useful coming out of reserves to annihilate a clump of infantry and then reverting to a tank hunter. You just have to make up for the missing ravager somewhere else like an extra squad of blaster toting trueborn.

Most of the DE players I saw at the NOVA Open besides Dashofpepper who did well had a big unit of Hellions. Stealing a pain token from a friendly Haemonculus adds considerably to their survivability.

Small hellion units with a stunclaw can be used as a sacrificial unit to draw IC's into the open. I've had a lot of success using them by assulting into an existing combat and scooping out the IC, who will then kill them off (or if not they can hit and run off) but be left standing all on his own, looking down the barrel of all those DL's, Disintegrators etc.

I use the as a utility unit, not a brute force one.

I've always been a staunch activist for the aircraft in DE's heavy support slots. Razorwing and Voidraven. But I won't deny that they have require a bit more TLC than the Ravager.

The razorwing has less anti-tank potential than a Ravager, no matter how you kit it out. It also costs more (which I'll argue is totally worth it, but) that means you're going to have to make up that anti-tank somewhere else and with less points to spare. Which isn't as hard as it may seem. Even if you max out your HS slots with Razorwings, it can be done.

Someone else already suggested adding another unit of trueblasters. That's the way I'd do it to be honest. But again, we've got less points to work with. How are we supposed to find what we need to buy that trueblaster squad? Simple. You paid extra for anti-infantry on your razorwings, so cut some anti-infantry out of the rest of your army. Cut a couple 5 man warrior squads in their venoms. Or maybe just cut some splinter cannons. You can find the points, I assure you.

And never discount the Razorwing's amazing alpha-strike capability. Hold them in reserve. Pop a couple transports with Raiders. Deep strike the Razorwings somewhere safe on the board, and cut loose their 4 missiles the turn they arrive. Aerial Assault baby.

Razorwing looks awesome

I have a friend who swears by the Razorwing. I used it in a couple of games and I have to agree with him. The missiles are great for taking out Long Fangs and other hard to reach infantry, as well as taking out huge chunks of horde armies. Once you fire the missiles off you just flya around and blow up tanks. The 36" move also really helps with last turn contesting.

no

Honestly I've never been a big fan of hellions. They are workable with the baron, but I'd rather take different HQs that do more for my army...ie Vect or a haemy for free FNP. Also I'd much rather take scourges, beasts, or even reavers as my FA over hellions.

Razorwings have their place. I fun them in lists that alread spam DL. Such as archons with blasters, trueborn snipers, scourges, warriors with DL too. Then 1-2 of my 3 HS is a razorwing. I drop the DL for dissies, go with a SC and stock missiles. The turn they show up I fire everything at the biggest nastiest enemy squad available. Normally it should wipe them out. Then I use the dissies and SC to hunt things like terminators, HW halves of tac squads, etc. Otherwise stick with ravagers.

OP:

You'll hear many sides in a thread like this. Do some reading....starting with DE tactica and unit analysis articles....and commentary on them.

ThePhish wrote:In which case, there are other things in the codex that do what they do better, for cheaper.

I will say I disagree with this - both Razorwings and Hellions occupy unique options within the codex.

Hellions suffer because there's a question if what they do is...well...needed at all. Also, there is a reasonable argument that Wyches + fielding some other anti-infantry option isn't better (it's probably not cheaper, per se' but can be fielded easier while working in other stuff)

I actually think it's pretty clear that for what they do the Razorwing has no real competition - you can't pay 145 points anywhere else in the Dex and basically have a guaranteed dead Loota mob or Longfang pack on Turn 1. Venoms can do this, but they require a saturation of numbers that I suspect isn't going to come in as cheaper than the Razorwing.

I generally agree with DoP here - the core question is difficult asked in a total vacuum. The OP could benefit by looking at various resources, ranging from tacticas and discussions to also looking at Batreps and seeing these units perform in 'real-life' situations. This will give him a more functional understanding than asking a room in general (and sorry guys, I dislike some of your answers pretty heavily ). He also then needs to start putting together a list, because even things that I call competitive in my tactica I'll disagree with in lists if they're placed poorly and lack synergy with the rest of the list.

OP, if you value your soul, you'll click the links in Thor665's signature. He's Slaanesh' avatar. And he's always hungry.

Then you should click on some of the DE links in my signature. That's only if you value your ability to walk into any 40k environment and slap people with your manhood from 15 feet away though. Truly.

I'm still trying to break the 12' mark, I keep passing out from lack of blood in my head after that point. I think the secret is the rum, but I only do tequila or vodka.

Thor665 wrote:

ThePhish wrote:In which case, there are other things in the codex that do what they do better, for cheaper.

I will say I disagree with this - both Razorwings and Hellions occupy unique options within the codex.

Hellions suffer because there's a question if what they do is...well...needed at all. Also, there is a reasonable argument that Wyches + fielding some other anti-infantry option isn't better (it's probably not cheaper, per se' but can be fielded easier while working in other stuff)

I actually think it's pretty clear that for what they do the Razorwing has no real competition - you can't pay 145 points anywhere else in the Dex and basically have a guaranteed dead Loota mob or Longfang pack on Turn 1. Venoms can do this, but they require a saturation of numbers that I suspect isn't going to come in as cheaper than the Razorwing.

I generally agree with DoP here - the core question is difficult asked in a total vacuum. The OP could benefit by looking at various resources, ranging from tacticas and discussions to also looking at Batreps and seeing these units perform in 'real-life' situations. This will give him a more functional understanding than asking a room in general (and sorry guys, I dislike some of your answers pretty heavily ). He also then needs to start putting together a list, because even things that I call competitive in my tactica I'll disagree with in lists if they're placed poorly and lack synergy with the rest of the list.

Ok, ok, so my statement was fairly broad and not a very accurate measure of my opinion on them. I agree with both of your statements actually and would retract my comment. I usually disregard hellions in general due to the exact reasons that you gave.

The razorwing is absolutely the best infantry killer in the codex, however, everything else we have in the codex also kills infantry (another generalization), maybe not as well, but well enough. If there's anything the DE lack, it's AT. Dark lances are all well and good, but it takes about 12 of them to actually kill an av12 unit(not mathammered). So, when there's so much redundancy in the codex for killing infantry, even though the razorwing is fantastic at killing infantry, it's often times not needed. It's a very fun piece to play though.

Now, one thing that I have yet to do, is design an army around using the razorwings. You know you're going to have AI down, and you can gear everything else in the army towards AT. I kind of already do that anyway, and use ravagers and still don't seem to have enough AT sometimes. I still have issues popping some av12 vehicles on my good days. Basically, my rambling point is that both units "are" good at what they do, but they are kind of redundant and aren't really necessary in more competitive builds. They're still fun to play.

So...I guess to paraphrase Dash and Thor...it depends...read a bunch and make up your own mind

If i was to use the Hellions I would have to put them with baron because I'm not to big a fan of the beastmasters and baron. I also like the razorwing now before i made this post.