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-

A very thought provoking article in today's Guardian newspaper. Who watches the watchmen?



The CIA's unaccountable drone war claims another casualty

If Tariq Aziz, the 16-year-old soccer fan I met last week in Pakistan, was a dangerous Taliban terrorist, let the CIA prove it
Pratap Chatterjee
guardian.co.uk, Monday 7 November 2011 15.41 GMT
Article history

Tariq Aziz (centre, second row) attending a meeting about drones strikes in Waziristan, held in Islamabad, Pakistan on 28 October 2011. Three days later, the 16 year old was reported killed by a drone-launched missile. Photograph: Pratap Chatterjee/BIJ

Last Friday, I met a boy, just before he was assassinated by the CIA. Tariq Aziz was 16, a quiet young man from North Waziristan, who, like most teenagers, enjoyed soccer. Seventy-two hours later, a Hellfire missile is believed to have killed him as he was travelling in a car to meet his aunt in Miran Shah, to take her home after her wedding. Killed with him was his 12-year-old cousin, Waheed Khan.

Over 2,300 people in Pakistan have been killed by such missiles carried by drone aircraft such as the Predator and the Reaper, and launched by remote control from Langley, Virginia. Tariq and Waheed brought the known total of children killed in this way to 175, according to statistics maintained by the organisation I work for, the Bureau of Investigative Journalism.

The final order to kill is signed allegedly by Stephen Preston, the general counsel at the CIA headquarters. What evidence, I would like to know, does Mr Preston have against Tariq and Waheed? What right does he have to act as judge, jury and executioner of two teenage boys neither he nor his staff have ever met, let alone cross-examined, or given the opportunity to present witnesses?

It is not too late to call for a prosecution and trial of whoever pushed the button and the US government officials who gave the order: that is, Mr Preston and his boss, President Barack Obama.

There are many people whom I know who can appear as witnesses in this trial. We – a pair of reporters, together with several lawyers from Britain, Pakistan and the US – met the victim and dozens of other young men from North Waziristan for dinner at the Margalla hotel in Islamabad on Thursday 27 October. We talked about their local soccer teams, which they proudly related were named for Brazil, New Zealand and other nations, which they had heard about but never visited.
The next morning, I filmed young Tariq walking into a conference hall to greet his elders. I reviewed the tape after he was killed to see what was recorded of some of his last moments: he walks shyly and greets the Waziri elders in the traditional style by briefly touching their chests. With his friends, he walks to a set of chairs towards the back of the hall, and they argue briefly about where each of them will sit. Over the course of the morning, Tariq appears again in many photographs that dozens of those present took, always sitting quietly and listening intently.

Tariq was attending a "Waziristan Grand Jirga" on behalf of drone strike victims in Pakistan, which was held at the Margalla hotel the following day. As is the Pashtun custom, the young men, each of whom had lost a friend or relative in a drone strike, did not speak. For four hours, the Waziri elders debated the drone war, and then they listened to a resolution condemning the attacks, read out by Mirza Shahzad Akbar, a lawyer from the Foundation for Fundamental Rights. The group voted for this unanimously.

Neil Williams, a volunteer from Reprieve, the British legal charity, sat down and chatted with Tariq after the jirga was over. Together, they traveled in a van to the Pakistani parliament for a protest rally against drone strikes led by Imran Khan, a former cricketer, and now the leader of the Tehreek-e-Insaaf political party.

The next day, the group returned home to Waziristan. On Monday, Tariq was killed, according to his uncle Noor Kalam.

The question I would pose to the jury is this: would a terrorist suspect come to a public meeting and converse openly with foreign lawyers and reporters, and allow himself to be photographed and interviewed? More importantly, since he was so easily available, why could Tariq not have been detained in Islamabad, when we spent 48 hours together? Neither Tariz Aziz nor the lawyers attending this meeting had a highly trained private security detail that could have put up resistance.
Attending that jirga, however, were Clive Stafford Smith and Tara Murray, two US lawyers who trained at Columbia and Harvard. They tell me, unequivocally, that US law is based on the fact that every person is innocent until proven guilty. Why was Tariq, even if a terrorist suspect, not offered an opportunity to defend himself?

Let me offer important alternative argument – the US government has a record of making terrible mistakes in this covert war. On 2 September 2010, the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan claimed to have killed Muhammad Amin, the alleged Taliban deputy governor of Takhar province in Afghanistan, in a drone strike. There was only one problem: Michael Semple, a Taliban expert at Harvard University, subsequently interviewed Muhammad Amin and confirmed that he was alive and well and living in Pakistan in March 2011.

The man who was killed was Zabet Amanullah, who was out campaigning in parliamentary elections – along with nine of his fellow election workers. This was confirmed by exhaustive research conducted by Kate Clark, a former BBC correspondent in Kabul who now works for the Afghanistan Analysts Network, who had met with Zabet Amanullah in 2008. The error could have been avoided, Clark points out in her report, if US military intelligence officers had just been "watching election coverage on television", instead of living in its "parallel world" remote from "normal, everyday world of Afghan politics".

If Barack Obama's CIA believed in justice and judicial process, they could have attended the Islamabad jirga last Friday and met with Tariq. It was, after all, an open meeting. They could have arrested and charged Tariq with the help of the Pakistani police. If a prosecution is ever mounted over the death of Tariq, those of us who met him on several occasions last week would be happy to testify to the character of the young man that we had met. But if the CIA has evidence to the contrary, it should present it to the world.

Unless the CIA can prove that Tariq Aziz posed an imminent threat (as the White House's legal advice stipulates a targeted killing must in order for an attack to be carried out), or that he was a key planner in a war against the US or Pakistan, the killing of this 16 year old was murder, and any jury should convict the CIA accordingly.

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The Great State of Texas

Excellent.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Oxfordshire UK

Completely agree. It's unjustified, and worse than that, its cowardly..

Oh I'm sure the usual bullgak will be trotted out: "It was a mistake, bad intelligence, misfiring Drone etc etc" Disgraceful, and no one will be held accountable. Itll just be swept under a carpet of red-tape and apologists....

How sad.....


 
   
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The Great State of Texas

Sad it didn't have a fusion bomb warhead? Sad Pakistan's intelligence agency is playing the terrorism game and killing NATO troops? Sad this article is so biased its not funny?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Ancient Chaos Terminator





Satellite of Love

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/7/us_drone_kills_16_year_old

A group of Pakistanis met in Islamabad late last month to discuss the impact of U.S. drone strikes in their communities. One of the attendees was a 16-year-old boy named Tariq Aziz, who had volunteered to learn photography to begin documenting drone strikes near his home. Within 72 hours of the meeting, Aziz was killed in a U.S. drone strike. His 12-year-old cousin was also killed in the Oct. 31 attack. "People were aware of the threat to them. Yet they volunteered—Tariq, in particular, because he, at his age in that remote community, was familiar with computers, was excited about the idea of being able to document the civilian casualties," says reporter Pratap Chatterjee, who met Aziz days before he was killed. As part of a larger investigation on the CIA-led U.S. covert drone war, Chatterjee and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism reports that drone strikes in Pakistan have killed at least 392 civilians, including 175 children. "I question as to whether the CIA is really attempting to identify people before they kill them," he says. "It would have been so easy for the CIA, the ISI, to come question these kids, to have taken them aside, even put them in jail or interrogated them... But instead they chose to kill them."

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St. Louis

That has to be one of the worst examples of reporting I've ever seen. The author ought to be ashamed.

EDIT: The OP, that is. The second link isn't half bad at keeping a neutral voice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/07 19:21:07


 
   
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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

This is exceptionally biased.

"It would have been so easy for the CIA, the ISI, to come question these kids, to have taken them aside, even put them in jail or interrogated them... But instead they chose to kill them."


We couldn't get the ISI to detain Osama and they warn militants of drone strikes every time we authorize them through the 'proper channels'. This is the unfortunate consequence of war and conflict, this boy wasn't the first to die in this war and won't be the last. It's heart breaking, but there are no good options and doing 'nothing' doesn't decrease the number of youths killed. Just the reasons and the killers.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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Oxfordshire UK

Frazzled wrote:Sad it didn't have a fusion bomb warhead? Sad Pakistan's intelligence agency is playing the terrorism game and killing NATO troops? Sad this article is so biased its not funny?


Nope, sad that a 16 year old boy and his 12 year old cousin were killed...Biased reporting or not, that's just sad. Someone should be held accountable, but it won't be whoever pulled the trigger. Drones being piloted by Drones, ironic no?


 
   
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The Great State of Texas

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Sad it didn't have a fusion bomb warhead? Sad Pakistan's intelligence agency is playing the terrorism game and killing NATO troops? Sad this article is so biased its not funny?


Nope, sad that a 16 year old boy and his 12 year old cousin were killed...Biased reporting or not, that's just sad. Someone should be held accountable, but it won't be whoever pulled the trigger. Drones being piloted by Drones, ironic no?

The article is so biased I can't tell if he was in the wrong place at thw wrong time, a bad guy supporter, a bad guy himself, in a bad guy vehicle, or what. But by the end of the article I did know that aT that point I didn't care.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

I don't believe he was either innocent, or that he was travelling to his aunts house.

Even if you don't believe that the government care about innocent lives (they probably don't very much) they most definitely do care about money. Why launch hellfire missiles at boys who are merely visiting their aunts?

The US/UK do at least attempt to take the moral high ground. We train our forces well, demand that they not shoot innocent people, impose strict ROE on all of our forces, and have due process and criminal trials for those that we deem to have acted irresponsibly. I know for a fact that the overwhelming majority of our military strikes are intelligence led. You think they waste good money by just dropping ordanance willy nilly on anybody and everyone?

I don't think that our government's are faultless and shining beacons of light, but I trust them far more than Pakistan's government.

I don't think our soldiers and intelligence operatives are entirely competent and blameless, but I trust them far more than their Pakistani counterparts.

I don't trust The Guardian, a ridiculously left leaning rag, that recently had to print an apology, to that marvel of journalistic integrity, The Sun!

I don't trust Pratap Chatterjee, author of Halliburton's Army: How A Well-Connected Texas Oil Company Revolutionized The Way America Makes War, Iraq, Inc : A Profitable Occupation and Gold, Greed, and Genocide.

I care nothing for this boys life. I trust our intelligence community more than I trust any of the above, and I presume that he deserved it. There is no smoke without fire, and in the intelligence world, that is very very often the case. You mix in bad circles, you tend to get a bad reputation.

And on the very slim chance that he didn't, well, its regrettable, but there's a war on don't you know.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/07 19:33:32


We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
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Noble of the Alter Kindred




United Kingdom

It might be a column with the author expressing a personal opinion
But surely Tareeq Aziz was a threat to US national security

Watch what you say chaps lest the CIA decide to take it upon themelves to silence your dissenting voice. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with their legitimate and most noble practice of remotely liquidating teenagers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/07 19:34:40


 
   
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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Sad it didn't have a fusion bomb warhead? Sad Pakistan's intelligence agency is playing the terrorism game and killing NATO troops? Sad this article is so biased its not funny?


Nope, sad that a 16 year old boy and his 12 year old cousin were killed...Biased reporting or not, that's just sad. Someone should be held accountable, but it won't be whoever pulled the trigger. Drones being piloted by Drones, ironic no?


You can't avenge every wrongful death in a war. Wars directly result in civilian casualties and a dismissal of the rule of law. Given the authorization procedures involved in actually firing a missing from a drone its highly likely that the boy was in the vicinity of suspected militants. Given his line of chosen activities it's likely he was doing it for one of them (if the article can be believed at all). The ISI has been doctoring media coming from the area for a decade and most people experienced with casualty reports from Pakistan would take a report such as this with a grain of salt the size of a truck.


As for this thread:

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/11/07 19:38:04


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

mattyrm wrote: I don't believe he was either innocent, or that he was travelling to his aunts house.

Even if you don't believe that the government care about innocent lives (they probably don't very much) they most definitely do care about money. Why launch hellfire missiles at boys who are merely visiting their aunts?

The US/UK do at least attempt to take the moral high ground. We train our forces well, demand that they not shoot innocent people, impose strict ROE on all of our forces, and have due process and criminal trials for those that we deem to have acted irresponsibly. I know for a fact that the overwhelming majority of our military strikes are intelligence led. You think they waste good money by just dropping ordanance willy nilly on anybody and everyone?

I don't think that our government's are faultless and shining beacons of light, but I trust them far more than Pakistan's government.

I don't think our soldiers and intelligence operatives are entirely competent and blameless, but I trust them far more than their Pakistani counterparts.

I don't trust The Guardian, a ridiculously left leaning rag, that recently had to print an apology, to that marvel of journalistic integrity, The Sun!

I don't trust Pratap Chatterjee, author of Halliburton's Army: How A Well-Connected Texas Oil Company Revolutionized The Way America Makes War, Iraq, Inc : A Profitable Occupation and Gold, Greed, and Genocide.

I care nothing for this boys life. I trust our intelligence community more than I trust any of the above, and I presume that he deserved it. There is no smoke without fire, and in the intelligence world, that is very very often the case. You mix in bad circles, you tend to get a bad reputation.

And on the very slim chance that he didn't, well, its regrettable, but there's a war on don't you know.


What Matty the Peacenik said.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:
mattyrm wrote: I don't believe he was either innocent, or that he was travelling to his aunts house.

Even if you don't believe that the government care about innocent lives (they probably don't very much) they most definitely do care about money. Why launch hellfire missiles at boys who are merely visiting their aunts?

The US/UK do at least attempt to take the moral high ground. We train our forces well, demand that they not shoot innocent people, impose strict ROE on all of our forces, and have due process and criminal trials for those that we deem to have acted irresponsibly. I know for a fact that the overwhelming majority of our military strikes are intelligence led. You think they waste good money by just dropping ordanance willy nilly on anybody and everyone?

I don't think that our government's are faultless and shining beacons of light, but I trust them far more than Pakistan's government.

I don't think our soldiers and intelligence operatives are entirely competent and blameless, but I trust them far more than their Pakistani counterparts.

I don't trust The Guardian, a ridiculously left leaning rag, that recently had to print an apology, to that marvel of journalistic integrity, The Sun!

I don't trust Pratap Chatterjee, author of Halliburton's Army: How A Well-Connected Texas Oil Company Revolutionized The Way America Makes War, Iraq, Inc : A Profitable Occupation and Gold, Greed, and Genocide.

I care nothing for this boys life. I trust our intelligence community more than I trust any of the above, and I presume that he deserved it. There is no smoke without fire, and in the intelligence world, that is very very often the case. You mix in bad circles, you tend to get a bad reputation.

And on the very slim chance that he didn't, well, its regrettable, but there's a war on don't you know.


What Matty the Peacenik said.



It's reassuring to know that so few of you care about 'that boys life'. The lack of compassion in conservatism is as strong as ever. It's good to know that you people have a role in maintaining the world order. I can't imagine what would happen if you all had hearts as big as your bullets. Now mind you that would still be a very small heart, but the levels of compassion required for feeling bad about a slain 12 year old who wanted practice with his camera doesn't require much more then that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/07 19:40:19


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
mattyrm wrote: I don't believe he was either innocent, or that he was travelling to his aunts house.

Even if you don't believe that the government care about innocent lives (they probably don't very much) they most definitely do care about money. Why launch hellfire missiles at boys who are merely visiting their aunts?

The US/UK do at least attempt to take the moral high ground. We train our forces well, demand that they not shoot innocent people, impose strict ROE on all of our forces, and have due process and criminal trials for those that we deem to have acted irresponsibly. I know for a fact that the overwhelming majority of our military strikes are intelligence led. You think they waste good money by just dropping ordanance willy nilly on anybody and everyone?

I don't think that our government's are faultless and shining beacons of light, but I trust them far more than Pakistan's government.

I don't think our soldiers and intelligence operatives are entirely competent and blameless, but I trust them far more than their Pakistani counterparts.

I don't trust The Guardian, a ridiculously left leaning rag, that recently had to print an apology, to that marvel of journalistic integrity, The Sun!

I don't trust Pratap Chatterjee, author of Halliburton's Army: How A Well-Connected Texas Oil Company Revolutionized The Way America Makes War, Iraq, Inc : A Profitable Occupation and Gold, Greed, and Genocide.

I care nothing for this boys life. I trust our intelligence community more than I trust any of the above, and I presume that he deserved it. There is no smoke without fire, and in the intelligence world, that is very very often the case. You mix in bad circles, you tend to get a bad reputation.

And on the very slim chance that he didn't, well, its regrettable, but there's a war on don't you know.


What Matty the Peacenik said.



It's reassuring to know that so few of you care about 'that boys life'. The lack of compassion in conservatism is as strong as ever. It's good to know that you people have a role in maintaining the world order. I can't imagine what would happen if you all had hearts as big as your bullets.


Actually bullets are really small so the comparison is pretty off. Now my ass is, in fact huge. That could be what you were tryig to mean.
IN the end, if you write an article that sounds like it was published by suicidebomber.com it better be entertaining, because if my funmeter is low, I'm just not gonna care.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

I edited the post after posting it again. Refresh, I got it in before you responded.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

No refresh for YOU!

Here's the fun part. I believe absolutely nothing in that article, other than a missile may or may not have been fired at someone. but to your point, even then, I don't care.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/07 19:49:58


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






On Monday, Tariq was killed, according to his uncle Noor Kalam.


lets see the kids obiturary

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Oxfordshire UK

Military Intelligence?! Riiiight. You know what, a 12 year old kid is most likely innocent, as is his cousin. Wether or not they were travelling to an Aunts house is pretty much not important. As for the Armed forces not wasting money? Behold some truly wasteful American Spending:

- According to the GAO, the Pentagon could save $184.5 billion by 2015 if they stopped buying military parts and equipment that are never used or are obsolete if they made some simple enhancements to their purchasing processes.

- The V-22 Osprey aircraft is way over budget, way behind schedule, and falling way short of the benefits it was supposed to deliver. Cancelling it and stopping the wasteful money drain would save over $6 billion by 2015.

- The Space Tracking Surveillance System satellite system has failed to deliver on its promises, is behind schedule, and suffers significant cost overruns. More importantly, its job can be handled by much less expensive, proven technology, according to an internal Defense Department analysis.

- Canceling this program would save about $5 billion by 2015.

- The same logic applies to the Expeditionary Force Fighting Vehicle which is 14 YEARS behind schedule and is viewed in its current state as "highly unreliable." Cancel this program and save over $16 billion by 2015.

This was after just 3 minutes of Google-Fu. Sorry Matty, but the money saving angle, it's just not there.....


 
   
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The Great State of Texas

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Military Intelligence?! Riiiight. You know what, a 12 year old kid is most likely innocent, as is his cousin. Wether or not they were travelling to an Aunts house is pretty much not important. As for the Armed forces not wasting money? Behold some truly wasteful American Spending:

Prove it.
Prove the kid was there.
Prove the kid wasn't with someone else worth putting a drone strike to.
I think its pretty damn relevant where the vehicle was heading, who was driving it, who was in it, and what vehicles they were with when and if a hit actually occurred.

Your rant about military spending is ommitted, though interesting in revealing its bias.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:No refresh for YOU!

Here's the fun part. I believe absolutely nothing in that article, other than a missile may or may not have been fired at someone. but to your point, even then, I don't care.


I see you have chosen your side in the class war!

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:No refresh for YOU!

Here's the fun part. I believe absolutely nothing in that article, other than a missile may or may not have been fired at someone. but to your point, even then, I don't care.


I see you have chosen your side in the class war!

I'm Frazzled, and I'm a 96.5784878256145687192471669544448541%er!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






The V-22 Osprey aircraft is way over budget, way behind schedule, and falling way short of the benefits it was supposed to deliver. Cancelling it and stopping the wasteful money drain would save over $6 billion by 2015.


Whats the date on this? Air Force and the Marine Corp are using the Osprey to full effect in Southern Afghanistan (Myself as eye witness and sent S/M on these flights)

- According to the GAO, the Pentagon could save $184.5 billion by 2015 if they stopped buying military parts and equipment that are never used or are obsolete if they made some simple enhancements to their purchasing processes.


Now that something I'm not arguing. I believe as we were redeploying home that we were selling the up armor Frag 5-7 Humvees to the ANA. I will beg to differ there are two sides on equipment/vehicles in the US and what we use in theaters. So equipment that are brought to maintain in the US is more then likely not used in Iraq/Afghanistan.

The same logic applies to the Expeditionary Force Fighting Vehicle which is 14 YEARS behind schedule and is viewed in its current state as "highly unreliable." Cancel this program and save over $16 billion by 2015.


What vehicle is this? Stryker Hybrid? New edition to the MRAP family? Never heard of this please clarify if you can

The Space Tracking Surveillance System satellite system has failed to deliver on its promises, is behind schedule, and suffers significant cost overruns. More importantly, its job can be handled by much less expensive, proven technology, according to an internal Defense Department analysis.


Not in my lane to comment on this since I'm more fimiliar with Blue Force Tracker, GPS, and RFID

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/07 20:17:23


Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:No refresh for YOU!

Here's the fun part. I believe absolutely nothing in that article, other than a missile may or may not have been fired at someone. but to your point, even then, I don't care.


I see you have chosen your side in the class war!

I'm Frazzled, and I'm a 96.5784878256145687192471669544448541%er!


You're not that rich.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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UK

Hey im not exactly "conservative" in the American sense am i? I merely said we have due process and don't drop bombs on people for nothing.

Seriously.. we don't don't. One lone grunt hasn't the authority to drone bomb anyone and everyone he wants guys. Think about what your saying!

We have due process and intelligence led ops because we know that killing innocent people leads to further radicalisation. It's not because we care. its because its tactical sound and we know how much the hearts and minds angle matters.

seriously.. Joe public seems to think that some fat semi literate US private just gets to sit in a chair drinking coffee and bombing the gak out of everyone and everything like he's playing battlefield 3 with cooler graphics! ;-)

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
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sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Completely agree. It's unjustified, and worse than that, its cowardly..

Oh I'm sure the usual bullgak will be trotted out: "It was a mistake, bad intelligence, misfiring Drone etc etc" Disgraceful, and no one will be held accountable. Itll just be swept under a carpet of red-tape and apologists....

How sad.....

Drones don't misfire, it not that it couldn't happen, it's just that it doesn't. I doubt the CIA has the same constraints as military drones, but targets cannot be solely identified by the imaging sensors on the drone itself. Weirdly everybody looks pretty much the same in IR. The difference really is that the CIA isn't generally held accountable for the collateral damage they cause. However I doubt this person was a blameless innocent if he was personally targeted.
In other words, this likely wasn't a mistake; the kid was probably not innocent; and no one will be held feet to the fire.

I couldn't care less about this kid. His age is irrelevant, I've seen 9 year olds emplace and detonate bombs. Innocence isn't limited by age. A 15 year old "probably" fired the rocket that killed two of my friends in Najaf, in other words. He's 16, so what: feth him.

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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Drones don't misfire, it not that it couldn't happen, it's just that it doesn't. I doubt the CIA has the same constraints as military drones, but targets cannot be solely identified by the imaging sensors on the drone itself. Weirdly everybody looks pretty much the same in IR. The difference really is that the CIA isn't generally held accountable for the collateral damage they cause. However I doubt this person was a blameless innocent if he was personally targeted.
In other words, this likely wasn't a mistake; the kid was probably not innocent; and no one will be held feet to the fire.


As far as I'm aware from previous research into the firing guidelines, the U.S. military and intelligence services do not fire on people below the observed age of 15. I could be misremembering this though. They also don't waste the missiles on lone operatives when they aren't observably guilty of fiddling with IEDs or when they aren't a target of import. Theres too much gray area in determining whether a lone individual is a militant. It's vastly more likely he was in a group that included adult members believed radicalized if this occurred at all.

I couldn't care less about this kid. His age is irrelevant, I've seen 9 year olds emplace and detonate bombs. Innocence isn't limited by age. A 15 year old "probably" fired the rocket that killed two of my friends in Najaf, in other words. He's 16, so what: feth him.


Innocence is the first and most saddening casualty of war. Once lost it can never be regained. It's pretty sad that you can't feel compassion for a 12 year olds death. That the situation has driven that feeling from you and that you were placed in a situation where you had to kill youths is pretty awful. That's no excuse for acts that wantonly take lives without due process or proper recourse though, and the CIA is hardly a transparent organization with a flawless history in that field.

Realistically though a 12 year old can not correctly operate an rpg-7.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/07 20:25:03


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






I couldn't care less about this kid. His age is irrelevant, I've seen 9 year olds emplace and detonate bombs. Innocence isn't limited by age. A 15 year old "probably" fired the rocket that killed two of my friends in Najaf, in other words. He's 16, so what: feth him.


I agree. No matter what the age if a kid picks up a weapon and decides to play "Kill an American" Day then I will not lose sleep seeing a 12-18 yrs old kid with a weapon lying dead knowing that some soldiers probaly met their end either dead or maimed. Its not that I'm cold hearted. Its fact. I've zipped cuff a lot of youngster and turn them over to the ANA for "process" with no regret.

12 year old who wanted practice with his camera doesn't require much more then that


Its a major concern when there's a military presence in the area IE FoB, convoy route, vehicles

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/07 20:25:41


Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

To quote the second best movie of all time:

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