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Orlanth wrote:Congratulations, you have just helped vindicate the extremists.

Because American foreign policy, how its implemented and American citizens support of it is the sole reason that Islam has extremists. There were none at all in the entirety of the 1425ish years that Islam has been around until recently. None whatsoever.

NELS1031 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Congratulations, you have just helped vindicate the extremists.

Because American foreign policy, how its implemented and American citizens support of it is the sole reason that Islam has extremists. There were none at all in the entirety of the 1425ish years that Islam has been around until recently. None whatsoever.

While you are being facetious I will like to point out that things are getting visibly worse and US policy has a lot to do with that. The attitude of kill them at will and/or support Israel doing same is winning few friends in the Middle East and elsewhere and is transparently morally bankrupt to most of the rest of the world. Even 'club dictator' states in Africa can see the right and wrong over this one.
Things are getting worse in spite of western progress. The increase of rights and humanism that marks post war western politics doesn't appear to apply to 'Ay-rabs' half the time. Jews in the Ottoman Empire gave far better rights than Palestinians do today and that was in the bad old Victorian days. The double talk of the freedom lovin, good ole' US of A is not lost on these people. Islam has its dogmas but religious dogma is not listened to without a secular catalyst.

In a lot of the middle East the US is seen as a bunch of murderous bigots with blatantly lobsided views on the value of people depending on racial identity. The point that this can describe a number of other countries in the Middle East is no excuse, not if you want to make out you are morally better than they are. After all being on a moral par with Islamic extremism isn't normally seen as a compliment.

The normality of your condition doesn't make it less meaningful or impactful. I am hopeful that upon completion of your duties you can return to normal life, whenever that is. I won't pretend to know what you've seen, but I know that anyone who has seen that kind of combat and who composes himself without emotion towards what they have seen is suffering from something. Emotional detachment isn't an uncommon coping mechanism, but it's not something you want to maintain for extended periods of time and it's not something you should carry like a badge of honor. An unfeeling soldier is a good soldier, but a lack of compassion in war leads to atrocities and the willingness of men to do them.

Badge of Honor eh? LoL Besides being physicaly hurt from a IED that flipped my MATV I knew I was going to get nailed with PTSD and TBI. I've seen the worst thing humans can do to each other and its something I rather not be open about it. I've compassion for my soldiers and I also have compassion towards the prisoners/suspect. I make sure they get proper medical care and water before they process on into a holding facility. You are just arm chairing the moral high ground and what your perception of right and wrong. What you think is not applying in this situation. The Insurgents are quite willing to use the kids against house either as suicide bombers or fighters. Its hard to tell the age of the person due to the man robes. Once a kid is killed by a unit the insurgents are hoping it work against us to make us pause before firing. Till you actually do a tour or two then you will become more like us

I have trouble believing that a 12 year old wouldn't have trouble operating a weapon that is three quarters of his height and probably a third of his weight. One that his arms would be too short to load appropriately without placing the weapon on the ground every time and one which requires a minimum level of training so that the user doesn't kill his friends with the backblast. A child can do virtually anything that an adult can do and I don't doubt that they've fired the weapon in the past, but this strains credulity from a physical and logical standpoint.

The weapon is already loaded for him. Its what we call a pray and spray so all he has to do is pop up and squeeze the trigger and run. He sure as hell not going to stand there after firing it to load it again for another shot. Either there is another loaded one nearby or he has a buddy that will hot load him. Its simple but effective. RPG is not that freaking heavy anyway. In fact


Weight

7 kg (15 lb)



Length

950 mm (37.4 in)

I see no issue with a 12 yrs old handling the weapon. I'm just grateful the little bastage keeps forgetting to pull the arming pins

Badge of Honor eh? LoL Besides being physicaly hurt from a IED that flipped my MATV I knew I was going to get nailed with PTSD and TBI. I've seen the worst thing humans can do to each other and its something I rather not be open about it. I've compassion for my soldiers and I also have compassion towards the prisoners/suspect. I make sure they get proper medical care and water before they process on into a holding facility.

That's more then you were implying earlier. Don't come off distant and dismissive of violence if you don't want people to assume bad things.

You are just arm chairing the moral high ground and what your perception of right and wrong. What you think is not applying in this situation. The Insurgents are quite willing to use the kids against house either as suicide bombers or fighters. Its hard to tell the age of the person due to the man robes. Once a kid is killed by a unit the insurgents are hoping it work against us to make us pause before firing. Till you actually do a tour or two then you will become more like us

Go back and reread my posts. I've yet to disprove of this drone strike or the conflict that brought it into being. I dislike the cavalier attitude you showed towards child killing and I still do.

The weapon is already loaded for him. Its what we call a pray and spray so all he has to do is pop up and squeeze the trigger and run. He sure as hell not going to stand there after firing it to load it again for another shot. Either there is another loaded one nearby or he has a buddy that will hot load him. Its simple but effective. RPG is not that freaking heavy anyway. In fact


Weight

7 kg (15 lb)



Length

950 mm (37.4 in)

I see no issue with a 12 yrs old handling the weapon. I'm just grateful the little bastage keeps forgetting to pull the arming pins

Read a bit farther down the wiki. The launcher is about two thirds of the weapons weight, the grenade itself is between 5 and 10 pounds and sticks a foot out the front. A 4 foot long 25 pound weapon would be difficult to utilize and aim properly for a 4.5 foot tall 80 pound child.

If you've seen it I wont tell you you haven't any longer. I'm aware of children being used as suicide bombs and for IEDs, but I've never heard of a twelve year old or younger being utilized as some sort of RPG firing solution. It seems like a bad idea. Those things don't grow on trees, why not give it to a 15 year old instead? The physical limitations of pre teens shouldn't be lost on the insurgents.

Ahem....

Some types of RPGs are single-use disposable units similar to the RPG-22;

Ahem
The launcher is designed such that the rocket exits the launcher without discharging an exhaust that would be dangerous to the operator

All with about 3 minutes of browsing on my military sites, and looking through my War Machine magazines.

Yes, the backblast may be quite hard, and yes aiming would also suffer, but the reason why child soldiers are used is because there is less chance of US troops hitting back.

Doctadeth wrote:Ahem....

Some types of RPGs are single-use disposable units similar to the RPG-22;

Ahem
The launcher is designed such that the rocket exits the launcher without discharging an exhaust that would be dangerous to the operator

All with about 3 minutes of browsing on my military sites, and looking through my War Machine magazines.

Yes, the backblast may be quite hard, and yes aiming would also suffer, but the reason why child soldiers are used is because there is less chance of US troops hitting back.

They could be using the pope, once an RPG has been fired at them there is exceptionally little chance that US soldiers won't fire back if able. An RPG can't be used by a child in a clandestine fashion like a grenade or suicide bomb. I just don't see much purpose in giving the weapon to a child over a larger fighter. Expendibility maybe, but that's about it.

Well, you don't really use a thing like an rpg to be sneaky, do you? Its about the size of a LAW, and even on an adult, you aren't going to hide the fact you've got an rpg.

It's about tactics, not hiding it, plus of course you are probably going to have adults with the children in an extended combat situation.

Doctadeth wrote:Well, you don't really use a thing like an rpg to be sneaky, do you? Its about the size of a LAW, and even on an adult, you aren't going to hide the fact you've got an rpg.

It's about tactics, not hiding it, plus of course you are probably going to have adults with the children in an extended combat situation.

If its about tactics and not guile why does the child have the rpg?

See above - The reason child soldiers are used against the USA is because of the Geneva convention and because the hope that the troops won't open fire on the child soldier because of his AGE.

Doctadeth wrote:See above - The reason child soldiers are used against the USA is because of the Geneva convention and because the hope that the troops won't open fire on the child soldier because of his AGE.

He's fired an RPG. If they were at all capable of catching his age before doing so it's not likely to matter after several hundred rounds are sent in his direction.

ShumaGorath wrote:So now that we've cleared up that you don't actually know the specifics of drone operations (how a piloted drone in a different country can follow the same rules of engagement as you did on the ground while prosecuting a mission of observation and assassination is beyond me), how about we drop the pretense and just state that the kid was probably with other militants at the time?

Yes, let's drop the pretense. In my 8 years operating UAVs I somehow managed to pick up bits and pieces of "the specifics of drone operations" I've briefed and executed hundreds of sorties. I'm going to make the wild guess your qualifications for commenting on drone operations are somewhat...less legitimate. My experience on the ground is limited to liaisons to supported units to integrate data sharing devices. However that "limited" experience is worlds apart from your armchair commentary on countries you"ve never been to, wars you've never fought, and operations you'll never participate in. So pretenses being dropped you don't have a fething clue what you are talking about. I am glad however you decided to step on your dick and tell me I have no idea how to execute my chosen profession. It makes it tha much sweeter everytime I look at another of your posts, roll my eyes, and remember how the omnipotent Shuma put me in my place.

I'm also not in the habit of giving out specific information, like ROEs, sensitive or not. It's bad for business.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctadeth wrote:Well, you don't really use a thing like an rpg to be sneaky, do you? Its about the size of a LAW, and even on an adult, you aren't going to hide the fact you've got an rpg.

It's about tactics, not hiding it, plus of course you are probably going to have adults with the children in an extended combat situation.

Are you referring to a LAW as a specific weapon or the M72? If the latter the Law is about the size of my forearm, ok a little longer, unopened it's pretty easy to hide. I may have missed your point but I just wanted to throw out that an RPG is much larger than a LAW.

Then, I can compare it with say, a SMAW or something near to that size

Either way, in essence, my point is proven because you cannot hide something of that size on your person even if you are an grown man

Yes, let's drop the pretense. In my 8 years operating UAVs I somehow managed to pick up bits and pieces of "the specifics of drone operations" I've briefed and executed hundreds of sorties. I'm going to make the wild guess your qualifications for commenting on drone operations are somewhat...less legitimate.

Internet searches and documentaries like I said up front. It was bullet point one.

My experience on the ground is limited to liaisons to supported units to integrate data sharing devices. However that "limited" experience is worlds apart from your armchair commentary on countries you"ve never been to, wars you've never fought, and operations you'll never participate in.

I have never been off the continent!

I am glad however you decided to step on your dick and tell me I have no idea how to execute my chosen profession. It makes it tha much sweeter everytime I look at another of your posts, roll my eyes, and remember how the omnipotent Shuma put me in my place.

I wield a scary amount of power.

I'm also not in the habit of giving out specific information, like ROEs, sensitive or not. It's bad for business.

Is that why you stated that the rules of engagement for drones are identical to the ones on the ground, despite them being vastly different in both writ and execution? The obfuscation factor? I'll admit, I thought you were inexperienced with drone operations beyond being in the theater and were talking out of your ass. I stated in my opening post on the subject that in my previous research into it, which I stated amounted to clickity clack keyboard typing and news docs, that I remembered there being a cutoff for what was considered a valid age of insurgent for targeting purposes and that is was 15. I also said I could of been misremembering it. I still could be. You would know better then I, but then you've been utterly vague in clarifying and have yet to actually disagree with anything I've said. Simply the fact that I appear to be saying it.


I mean, hey, lets see whats got you all boondoggled!

Extensive and tailored to the mission? I know what I've read in articles and seen in documentaries of the crews. I pretty explicitly stated that I could be misremembering and that the CIA program is a lot less transparent then what is familiar in Iraq and Afghanistan. Believe me or not, I don't honestly care. The guidelines appear to be pretty straightforward and logical. Firing missiles at random 12 year olds with cameras as they walk the desert alone is a pretty stupid thing to do from an operational standpoint and I have a hard time believing the firing would be authorized in that situation. I know you love to pretend to know what every man woman and drone in the mideast smells like, but you don't know the firing protocols of drones any better then I do.

Look at that, papers and docs and an implicit trust that you're not doing a really really bad job up there mopping up extremists in pakistan from the skies. Hell, I even accidentally got you and jihadin mixed up which I apoligize for. He was the smell guy. You responded with:

They follow the same ROE as ground forces with some additions. There is no exhaustive protocol for each mission as in the duration of the flight several missions may be serviced and you can expect the crew to remember the Conop for every mission. Shoot/ no shoot in non time sensitive and unconfirmed targets requires a specific authorization. Troops or civilians in contact loosens those restrictions to a much lower level. I won't "note" anything, specific SOPs are generally sensitive and vary widely from unit to unit and service to service. A pilot is always authorized to fire in cases of imminent danger. Watch fewer movies.

That ROF thing bit me, since you don't follow the same ROE. You're in a drone in the sky with no personal threat. You can not assess the situation in the same way or under the same guidelines. Those additions must be an entirely different book, especially considering the international usage of the drones and how the ROE are theater specific. The movie thing was neat. After this post I basically assumed you were a ground pounder. These assumptions get me sometimes! Other then those quibbling bits you basically copied 'Extensive and tailored to the mission' and added slang.

That sounds wonderful. Very informative/vague and interestingly it conflicts in virtually no way with anything that I've said while being utterly uninformative. Its as if you magically restarted exactly what you were quoting except you threw in jargon and acronyms to flesh out the paragraph.

As for the pilot/our troops being in danger, I'm not sure how some kid in tribal Pakistan is endangering someone immediately. Unless we're in the practice of stealth choppering all around there now the nearest engagement was probably quite a fair distance away. So now that we've cleared up that you don't actually know the specifics of drone operations (how a piloted drone in a different country can follow the same rules of engagement as you did on the ground while prosecuting a mission of observation and assassination is beyond me), how about we drop the pretense and just state that the kid was probably with other militants at the time? Unless our military is truly incompetent there is little reason to believe we would have fired a hellfire at a lone 12 year old with a camera in Pakistan.

This is back to the pakistan thing (where the ROE are very different since were not even in a conflict there officially). I claim you're as ignorant as I am and I go back to hoping that we wouldn't spend that much money and effort on killing a kid with a camera. I'm not in your shoes. I don't get to have fun with drones. I didn't pretend I did. Despite being omnipotent I can't control drones so it's up to you to enlighten us and not bait everyone along with your drone controlling secret superpowers.


Thats the history of this argument in a teacup! I narrowly avoided pie in my face by being explicit and up front about what I knew and thought I knew in the beginning. Honestly I'm having a harder time dodging the pies with the airline joke then this thing.

I see there's a bit of an issue on actual age. We're all use to carrying driver license that pretty much state your birth date. Unlike the kids in Afghanistan where they don't carry ID cards. I've seen some young ones fight us. Now back to the 12 and the RPG. The weight of the weapon is centered on the should for a even load. It is not nose heavy. Its just seems your offended that we snuffed some kids life thoughout the deployments that went into combat against us and I don't feel remorse is not your issue. Its my issue. I've no issue on wrapping my mind around the fact the insurgents use kids in combat.

Give you an idea on my perception now. If you were in a severe vehicle accident with your wife and kid and I was on scene. I will move with a purpose calmly and collectively adminster first aid to you from my medic bag. If your alive and screaming but no arterial blood showing I move on. Your wife is unconcious and breathing I move on. Your kid is unconcious, breathing, blood out his ears I will stabalize his body, I will move back to your wife to ensure she is still breathing. I move to you to ensure pressure from the seatbelt is not impeding blood flow on your lower limb. BINGO we got a arterial blood but what..your wife goes in convulsion and blood coming up. I hand you the torniquet which is Dummy proof on how to use and incubate your wife with a endo tube. Wait a minute....I smell gas....I hear someone yell fire....I grab the kid the first as stable as I could and move away from the scene. You both die from the explosion. Why the kid? Why not. Will I feel remorse you died. I'm to harden on death so no issue. Willl the kid hate me for saving his parents. I could care less. I acted appropiately given the situation I was in. There was nothing else I can do AFTER THE FACT

I see there's a bit of an issue on actual age. We're all use to carrying driver license that pretty much state your birth date. Unlike the kids in Afghanistan where they don't carry ID cards. I've seen some young ones fight us. Now back to the 12 and the RPG. The weight of the weapon is centered on the should for a even load. It is not nose heavy. Its just seems your offended that we snuffed some kids life thoughout the deployments that went into combat against us and I don't feel remorse is not your issue. Its my issue. I've no issue on wrapping my mind around the fact the insurgents use kids in combat.

Nor do I. They can hold an AK47 and they can almost use it. I'm not particularly offended that kids were killed. What offended me wasn't that in this situation a little boy with a camera was theoretically killed by what amounted to a flying niko rc car with missiles while in his home country. A country that we are theoretically not at war with. What offended me is that people were amused or didn't care.

Give you an idea on my perception now. If you were in a severe vehicle accident with your wife and kid and I was on scene. I will move with a purpose calmly and collectively adminster first aid to you from my medic bag. If your alive and screaming but no arterial blood showing I move on. Your wife is unconcious and breathing I move on. Your kid is unconcious, breathing, blood out his ears I will stabalize his body, I will move back to your wife to ensure she is still breathing. I move to you to ensure pressure from the seatbelt is not impeding blood flow on your lower limb. BINGO we got a arterial blood but what..your wife goes in convulsion and blood coming up. I hand you the torniquet which is Dummy proof on how to use and incubate your wife with a endo tube. Wait a minute....I smell gas....I hear someone yell fire....I grab the kid the first as stable as I could and move away from the scene. You both die from the explosion. Why the kid? Why not. Will I feel remorse you died. I'm to harden on death so no issue. Willl the kid hate me for saving his parents. I could care less. I acted appropiately given the situation I was in. There was nothing else I can do AFTER THE FACT

That's a good description of the benefits of emotional numbness during life or death situations. Surgeons and conflict zone medical professionals deal with that on a daily basis. You were in a unit that had to fight child soldiers? I can't fault you for defending yourself and your buddies. That's a far cry from dispassionately approving of the death of a kid because he might of known someone. That implies a type of mania that is far less productive.

That ROF thing bit me, since you don't follow the same ROE. You're in a drone in the sky with no personal threat. You can not assess the situation in the same way or under the same guidelines.

Having held both ROEs side by side the difference between air and ground ROEs are negligible. The ground ones don't have time limits and the air ones don't have show shout shove shoot. The criteria for engaging remains uniform hostile forces, acts, or intent. Again your backside is allowed to do what your mouth slit was meant for. Accessing the situation doesn't require personal threat, if I walk down the street and see a quikie mart employee being robbed with a gun I'm in no personal danger, but should I acess that there is a credible threat to his life; I am permitted by law to shoot and kill his assailant. The ROE functions in the same way to protect life and property, personal threat or even presense are not required.

The movie thing was neat. After this post I basically assumed you were a ground pounder. These assumptions get me sometimes! Other then those quibbling bits you basically copied 'Extensive and tailored to the mission' and added slang.

I pretty specifically said that there was no way you could expect a crew to remember the specifics of every mission in a sortie, so no attempt is made to do so. The same brief is presented on route recons as raids. I've spent my fair share on the ground with supported units to gain a healthy appreciation.

And I'm back to rolling my eyes.

Having held both ROEs side by side the difference between air and ground ROEs are negligible. The ground ones don't have time limits and the air ones don't have show shout shove shoot. The criteria for engaging remains uniform hostile forces, acts, or intent. Again your backside is allowed to do what your mouth slit was meant for.

I'm having trouble actually believing that the rules of engagement for an air force drone pilot are the same as those of an army soldier. Something about one being a 30 foot prop plane piloted from hundreds of miles away while the other is a dude on foot with a gun. You could certainly be entirely correct and pie would be all over the place but until you post something other then your word I'm going to continue talking out of the backside. These back and forths are learning experiences. Shared exchanges of information. Present some information so that I can feel wrong. At least I'll have learned something. Stop just assuring me that two things that would at face value appear to be very different are in fact the same.

Accessing the situation doesn't require personal threat, if I walk down the street and see a quikie mart employee being robbed with a gun I'm in no personal danger, but should I acess that there is a credible threat to his life; I am permitted by law to shoot and kill his assailant. The ROE functions in the same way to protect life and property, personal threat or even presense are not required.

See, that's the thing though. You're not passing by his shop, you're firing a hellfire missile from a thousand feet in the air using an IR camera and something the cia told you. Unless bootcamp comes with the ability to fly now this is a pretty significant divergence from the day to day situations a soldier finds himself in. One would think the ROEs for soldiers on the ground would be almost worthless to a drone pilot as 99% of your drop would appear to be swiping a camera back and forth and waiting for a firing solution when you find something. Does an A10 have the same rules of engagement as a soldier in kandahar?

I pretty specifically said that there was no way you could expect a crew to remember the specifics of every mission in a sortie, so no attempt is made to do so. The same brief is presented on route recons as raids. I've spent my fair share on the ground with supported units to gain a healthy appreciation.

Actually you said that I can expect you to remember. I thought it was a professional pride thing, but a typo is just as good. It didn't factor into much regardless.

And I'm back to rolling my eyes.

It must be all that omnipotence.

I'm a ground pounder. One thing we like is the constant air support. Mainly a A10 overhead. Neatest thing is seeing the A10 on a gun run and we have front roll seat and somewhat grinning that some insurgents are going to have a bad day in a few sec's. Also a constant fact that there are drones overhead keeping an eye out above in its area of operation. I've gone out to inspect drone strikes (not in Pakistan) and most the time its a few insurgents setting up an IED on the road. Other times they were setting rockets to launch or mortars. Just another set of eye's




Just to give an idea what it takes to confirm a predator strike. No sound but pay close attention to what they're doing

AustonT wrote:

Da Boss wrote:you lose the moral high ground if you don't care about it. And you start digging yourself a hole if you joke about it.

the digging is improving your position, and erecting overhead cover.

Awesome.


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Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Sad it didn't have a fusion bomb warhead? Sad Pakistan's intelligence agency is playing the terrorism game and killing NATO troops? Sad this article is so biased its not funny?

Nope, sad that a 16 year old boy and his 12 year old cousin were killed...Biased reporting or not, that's just sad. Someone should be held accountable, but it won't be whoever pulled the trigger. Drones being piloted by Drones, ironic no?

The article is so biased I can't tell if he was in the wrong place at thw wrong time, a bad guy supporter, a bad guy himself, in a bad guy vehicle, or what. But by the end of the article I did know that aT that point I didn't care.

What are you saying here Frazzie? Bomb the brown guys, its doesn't matter because they come from terroristland.

Congratulations, you have just helped vindicate the extremists.

I thought what I said was pretty clear*. The article is so biased that by the end of it I didn't care. Mind you at the beginning I didn't care a whole lot either.
Everything else is supposition on your part, mayhaps subconscious issues coming out.

*There is no proof that Frazzled has publicly advocated drone strikes against OccupiedPeoria, none whatsoever. You can't prove a thing.

Jihadin wrote:I'm a ground pounder. One thing we like is the constant air support. Mainly a A10 overhead. Neatest thing is seeing the A10 on a gun run and we have front roll seat and somewhat grinning that some insurgents are going to have a bad day in a few sec's. Also a constant fact that there are drones overhead keeping an eye out above in its area of operation. I've gone out to inspect drone strikes (not in Pakistan) and most the time its a few insurgents setting up an IED on the road. Other times they were setting rockets to launch or mortars. Just another set of eye's

Matty loves American air support, you could ask him, but I think that he'll probably just come in when he feels like it and say so.

LOL I love air support myelf. Majority time after the strike its collect weapons and search bodies for intell. I hate searching bodies cause you have to get on top of him and roll a bit to one side lifting the body a bit so the spotter can yell "GRENADE!" or "clear".......I did the body coaster ride once and don't really much care for it. So its great when their in pieces.

halonachos wrote:

Matty loves American air support, you could ask him, but I think that he'll probably just come in when he feels like it and say so.

Damn straight!

Personally saved my life more than once. When your getting engaged from 10 different compounds and they drop bombs on 6 inside 60 seconds you cant help but be impressed.

Ill never say a bad word about American air, and anyone who does hasn't been in the gak over in Ganner's before. British hippies love to point out that they have killed some of our soldiers, they gleefully slag the American Air Force off and point out that their bombs miss more than anyone else's, well that's because they drop ten times the amount of ordanance than anyone else. Some get fin locked and land in the wrong place, some miss the target altogether due to a collection of feth up's, but not many and not often.

I actually served with a couple of other RM alongside some guys from the Royal Anglican Regiment when we were checking out Kajaki on a recce before 40 Commando deployed. It was about one week after this incident. And it was 5 weeks before their 6 month deployment was over.

23 August 2007 friendly fire incident

In a reported friendly fire incident on 23 August 2007, one of a pair United States Air Force F-15E fighter aircraft called in to support a patrol of the 1st Battalion in Afghanistan dropped a bomb on the same patrol, killing three men, and severely injured two others. It was later revealed that the British forward air controller who called in the strike had not been issued a noise-cancelling headset, and in the confusion and stress of the battle incorrectly confirmed one wrong digit of the co-ordinates mistakenly repeated by the pilot, and the bomb landed on the British position 1,000 metres away from the enemy. The coroner at the soldiers' inquest stated that the incident was due to "flawed application of procedures" rather than individual errors or "recklessness"

At the lads funeral's their comrades flew an American flag alongside the British one, and every single bloke I spoke to from their company said that they had had their tails saved by American air too many times to count.

Not a single one of them had anything bad to say about American air support, and I doubt an actual combat veteran ever will.

Remeber what happened to the Patricia's?
CAS is nice but when I'm getting ready to call a fire mission I generally specifically request an F15 callsign over 16s, or an Army Air Weapons Team. AWTs are a lot more flexible and if they dont have enough boom you can almost always get arty. Artillery is what makes me happy.

@AustonT: Should you be going into that level of detail? (military secrets)

Reading these posts, you could be forgiven for thinking that the United States military has never mistakenly killed a civilian before. Judging by some of the reactions. Please don't take this as being anti-american, I'm quite the opposite.

IMO people have missed the point of this article. It's not judging if a 16 year old is/isn't a terrorist, it's the fact that civilians are being killed in the first place. Iraq and Afghanistan have been a complete and shambolic tragedy. Billions wasted, hundreds of thousands dead, and for what? I couldn't answer that question, not for a million dollars/pounds.

I was watching the HBO production of John Adams the other day, and there is a scene where he slaps down Alexander hamilton, when Hamilton talks about empire-building...

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@AustonT: Should you be going into that level of detail? (military secrets)

Reading these posts, you could be forgiven for thinking that the United States military has never mistakenly killed a civilian before. Judging by some of the reactions. Please don't take this as being anti-american, I'm quite the opposite.

IMO people have missed the point of this article. It's not judging if a 16 year old is/isn't a terrorist, it's the fact that civilians are being killed in the first place. Iraq and Afghanistan have been a complete and shambolic tragedy. Billions wasted, hundreds of thousands dead, and for what? I couldn't answer that question, not for a million dollars/pounds.

I was watching the HBO production of John Adams the other day, and there is a scene where he slaps down Alexander hamilton, when Hamilton talks about empire-building...

I would LOVE to see doumentation showing "hundreds of thousands dead", especially if you can directly attribute even 25% of those deaths to US or allied forces. I suspect you cannot.

What you and others seem to be missing is:

1. A lot fewer civilians are being killed than in past wars due to improved weapons precision and ROE. (look up stats from WW2 for example)
2. The US (and allies ) work very hard to limit actual innocent civilian deaths.
3. The bad guys like to claim innocent civilians killed, even when none are.
4. A segment of the media (same segment which helped create and perpetuate memes such as 'baby killers' during Vietnam) actively or passively work to destroy US and allied military reputation and credibility.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@AustonT: Should you be going into that level of detail? (military secrets)

I've had the dubious pleasure of creating briefings both classified and unclassified on this and other similar subjects. This doesnt really even approach the line between the two. I'm not infallible in knowing the difference but the litmus test tends to be whats easily accesable through open sources. The general capabilities of F15/6 in CAS roles and AWTs are pretty well documented. Had I referenced the specific incident I was thinking of when I startyed typing, even in general terms, that might be a little too much.


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stupid quote boxes...im not fixing this one


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...really

@CptJake, I love your logic. So, everything is ok because 'only' thousands of civilians are being killed instead of hundreds of thousands. Hm... Reminds me of those books that revise the battle of the somme, which said that it wasn't a bloody battle because the original casulty list of 65,000 was wrong. It was really 60,000!
It's hard to tell who the bad guys are in this world, If I'm being honest. Thousands of people are murdered every year by the chinese state, but the west does a shed load of trade with them.
People think I'm anti-american, but I despise the actions of my own government as equally, these past 30 years. This is not a personal attack on any member of this site.
When is a bad guy in Iraq, not a bad guy. When it's 1986 and he's buying weapons from you.

When is a bad guy in Iraq, not a bad guy

When he's not shooting/IED/mortar/rocketing us.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:@CptJake, I love your logic. So, everything is ok because 'only' thousands of civilians are being killed instead of hundreds of thousands. Hm... Reminds me of those books that revise the battle of the somme, which said that it wasn't a bloody battle because the original casulty list of 65,000 was wrong. It was really 60,000!
It's hard to tell who the bad guys are in this world, If I'm being honest. Thousands of people are murdered every year by the chinese state, but the west does a shed load of trade with them.
People think I'm anti-american, but I despise the actions of my own government as equally, these past 30 years. This is not a personal attack on any member of this site.
When is a bad guy in Iraq, not a bad guy. When it's 1986 and he's buying weapons from you.

Now your putting words in my mouth. I never claimed it was 'ok'. I claimed, and can back up, that US and allies work very hard to avoid innocent civilian casualties.

YOU on the other hand claimed 'hundreds of thousands dead'. Back that up. Oh wait, now you are dropping it by a couple orders of magnitude to 'thousands'. I strongly suspect you can't back up those numbers if you limit the deaths you count to deaths atributable to the US and our allies and not those caused by sectarian violence or acts of terrorism. You see, the bad guys target civilians. Again, we do not.

Despising the actions of your gov't does not indicate you are not anti-american by the way. You can clearly be anti-american and despise your gov't.

Bringing in the Chinese... nice deflection which has zero relevance to the topic at hand.

We do care about the ordinary Iraq as shown