16 year killed by drone attack in Pakistan: reporter calls for justice

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**mattyrm**

ShumaGorath wrote:

Realistically though a 12 year old can not correctly operate an rpg-7.

Mate, they might be pretty gak shots, but you only have to get it pretty close when its an RPG! I went to Sierra Leone and let me tell you, in gak hole countries, them lads start early!

**Albatross**

This thread really reflects well on nerds and their sense of social adjustment.

**ShumaGorath**

Jihadin wrote:
I couldn't care less about this kid. His age is irrelevant, I've seen 9 year olds emplace and detonate bombs. Innocence isn't limited by age. A 15 year old "probably" fired the rocket that killed two of my friends in Najaf, in other words. He's 16, so what: feth him.

I agree. No matter what the age if a kid picks up a weapon and decides to play "Kill an American" Day then I will not lose sleep seeing a 12-18 yrs old kid with a weapon lying dead knowing that some soldiers probaly met their end either dead or maimed. Its not that I'm cold hearted. Its fact. I've zipped cuff a lot of youngster and turn them over to the ANA for "process" with no regret.

You should loose sleep over it. That's pretty fethed up. It's a sign of psychosis to lose emotional connection to the struggles of others or violence directed at them. Especially when it's something you are present for.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:

Realistically though a 12 year old can not correctly operate an rpg-7.

Mate, they might be pretty gak shots, but you only have to get it pretty close when its an RPG! I went to Sierra Leone and let me tell you, in gak hole countries, them lads start early!

They're also awful soldiers who are notoriously worthless in combat.

Its a major concern when there's a military presence in the area IE FoB, convoy route, vehicles/quote]

What are you convoying through tribal Pakistan again? Last I checked it was missiles that were already in the air and not much else.

**mattyrm**

ShumaGorath wrote:
They're also awful soldiers who are notoriously worthless in combat.

Indeed they are. But its easy for internet tough guys to say that Shuma.

Needless to say I would be most amused if those three fethers were armed as it and ripped to the tits on wobbly eggs and you noticed them as you walked round a corner, would you turn back or happily stroll past them?

Plus, its a moot point. I mean, I said its unfortunate when kids get fragged and im not arguing its great like AT there, but he is essentially correct. Chronology has no bearing on your terrorism status, and if a kid of 15 is happily going to become a suicide bomber, then sadly we should frag him before he blows himself up on a crowded bus.

And lose no sleep over it. Its the poor little bastards parents fault for breeding hatred into the little scamp!

**Frazzled**

mattyrm wrote: seriously.. Joe public seems to think that some fat semi literate US private just gets to sit in a chair drinking coffee and bombing the gak out of everyone and everything like he's playing battlefield 3 with cooler graphics! ;-)

More so's the pity.

**kronk**

Albatross wrote:This thread really reflects well on nerds and their sense of social adjustment.

Surely nothing but off-handed comments should be expected in response to such an obviously biased article.

It honestly reads more like a Blog than professional journalism.

**Frazzled**

mattyrm wrote:

Mom, I said NO MORE BROCCOLI!

**AustonT**

ShumaGorath wrote:
As far as I'm aware from previous research into the firing guidelines, the U.S. military and intelligence services do not fire on people below the observed age of 15. I could be misremembering this though. They also don't waste the missiles on lone operatives when they aren't observably guilty of fiddling with IEDs or when they aren't a target of import. Theres too much gray area in determining whether a lone individual is a militant. It's vastly more likely he was in a group that included adult members believed radicalized if this occurred at all.

Oh please do tell me: what are the "firing guidelines" for drone operators?

Realistically though a 12 year old can not correctly operate an rpg-7.

This is you talking out of your poop chute. It's mind numbingly simple to correctly operate an RPG. You might even manage it with strenuous coaching.

**mattyrm**

kronk wrote:
Albatross wrote:This thread really reflects well on nerds and their sense of social adjustment.

Surely nothing but off-handed comments should be expected in response to such an obviously biased article.

It honestly reads more like a Blog than professional journalism.

Mate, have you read the Guardian?!

Its not that article, its the whole damn paper!

Tomorrow's scoop "being vegan and sporting a beard, brown chords, a save the whales button and a tye dye shirt makes you more likely to have children with a genius level IQ"

**kronk**

Never read The Guardian.

If this article is representative of their journalism, I'm glad I never have.

**ShumaGorath**

Oh please do tell me: what are the "firing guidelines" for drone operators?

Extensive and tailored to the mission? I know what I've read in articles and seen in documentaries of the crews. I pretty explicitly stated that I could be misremembering and that the CIA program is a lot less transparent then what is familiar in Iraq and Afghanistan. Believe me or not, I don't honestly care. The guidelines appear to be pretty straightforward and logical. Firing missiles at random 12 year olds with cameras as they walk the desert alone is a pretty stupid thing to do from an operational standpoint and I have a hard time believing the firing would be authorized in that situation. I know you love to pretend to know what every man woman and drone in the mideast smells like, but you don't know the firing protocols of drones any better then I do.

But hey, since you do. Please do tell me: what are the "firing guidelines" for drone operators? (note that the pilots don't fire without permission and that the operation crews involve dozens of people and intelligence services).

This is you talking out of your poop chute. It's mind numbingly simple to correctly operate an RPG. You might even manage it with strenuous coaching.

I'm also not a twelve year old. Are you?

**Albatross**

kronk wrote:
Albatross wrote:This thread really reflects well on nerds and their sense of social adjustment.

Surely nothing but off-handed comments should be expected in response to such an obviously biased article.

It honestly reads more like a Blog than professional journalism.

Funny thing is, it reads quite similarly to a fair amount of the American journalism that I've read - in terms of naked appeals to emotion, especially. If this was about some poor American guy who lost his house in the credit crunch and then had to sell his car to pay for cancer medicine or something, and it was written in the same style, you'd be lapping it up like a sick puppy. Just face it, you people are the world's bad guys for now - we had our turn (and don't you all just love reminding us about it!), now it's yours. I like America and Americans, but I can't help but think that your nation suffers from a strange kind of collective naivete. Your politicians and citizens ask questions like 'why do they hate us?' Do you honestly expect your nation to swagger around the world dispensing summary justice to anyone your government sees fit, and for that to go un-protested? Of course the guy who wrote that is pissed, your government probably (let's be real) murdered that kid, and he wants to know why. If there's a reason, let's hear it. The USA is not at war with Pakistan, so why should the rest of the world just accept 'meh, collateral damage' as the reason for this kid's death? And the worst part is, so many of you seem to think it's perfectly fine that your government can kill who it wants, as long they live in a smelly country. In fact, some of you seem to find it hilarious.

If you want to stop terrorism, you guys need to sort your heads out, because it's the perception of that sort of attitude on your parts by young Muslims that leads to radicalisation. You guys have changed, man. You used to be cool. What happened?

Oh... yeah. That.

**AustonT**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Oh please do tell me: what are the "firing guidelines" for drone operators?

But hey, since you do. Please do tell me: what are the "firing guidelines" for drone operators? (note that the pilots don't fire without permission and that the operation crews involve dozens of people and intelligence services).

They follow the same ROE as ground forces with some additions. There is no exhaustive protocol for each mission as in the duration of the flight several missions may be serviced and you can expect the crew to remember the Conop for every mission. Shoot/ no shoot in non time sensitive and unconfirmed targets requires a specific authorization. Troops or civilians in contact loosens those restrictions to a much lower level. I won't "note" anything, specific SOPs are generally sensitive and vary widely from unit to unit and service to service. A pilot is always authorized to fire in cases of imminent danger. Watch fewer movies.

This is you talking out of your poop chute. It's mind numbingly simple to correctly operate an RPG. You might even manage it with strenuous coaching.

I'm also not a twelve year old. Are you?

I feel like this point virtually makes itself.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@albatross I'm going to interspace your quotes without the quote markers and alternate lines. Sorry.

If there's a reason, let's hear it.

Despite my lack of concern over this kids death I very much want to know WHY. I also assume from my own experience that there is a reason.

The USA is not at war with Pakistan, so why should the rest of the world just accept 'meh, collateral damage' as the reason for this kid's death?

You shouldn't. In the era of the Internet, global media, and near Real time reporting the citizens and leaders of other nations should hold each other accountable. Especially the US, UK, CAN, AUS, NZ. If you have to ask why you don't need to know.

And the worst part is, so many of you seem to think it's perfectly fine that your government can kill who it wants, as long they live in a smelly country.

It has to do with perspective, BTDT is a terrible attitude among those in the know. But it's also a valid point when dealing with those that have not. If you've ever had to deal with the people at large in say Iraq, your sympathy for thier plights and belief in their better nature fades quickly. It's not hard to apply that attitude to similar (perceived) nations. How many days do you think you could count and collect bodies in the streets of Baghdad before you just assumed all Iraqis were smelly, murderous donkey-caves who kidnap, torture, murder, and unceremoniously dump thier neighbors in the streets if they think they can get away with it.

In fact, some of you seem to find it hilarious.

It's not funny it's fact. jhonny hajj tries to kill you and all your friends. If you kill him first, and he turns out to be a kid, that's just too bad. I do have laughs at the expense of some of the Iraqis I came into daily contact with. Just like anyone else they do funny gak. Is it funny that they smell, sometimes. I met an Indian construction worker in Iraq who was one of the smelliest mofos I've ever been around. Probably one of the smartest too. I know for sure he spoke his native dialect ( which I think was Hindi but can't guarantee), English, French, German, Russian, Arabic, and Farsi. His boss told me he spoke 11 distinct languages, he poured concrete for a living in Iraq. Smelly brown people aren't inherently evil, just the ones trying to kill me. If I get the upper hand, it's called the last laugh for a reason.

You guys have changed, man. You used to be cool.

We stopped minding our own business.

**Da Boss**

I'm with Albatross. Child soldiers and the deaths of children in war are not something I am happy seeing joked about in OT.
God's sake, threads get locked for much less than this on other topics.

The fact that some of you repeatedly state you don't care about some kid's death is really depressing. It's possible to acknowledge that a child soldier is a danger and a threat that may need to be removed to ensure the safety of soldiers on our side, but it's a fething tragedy. It's possibly the worst tragedy of war in my mind. It's terrible that these kids are getting used in this way (and they are, I don't doubt it, especially young boys) but you lose the moral high ground if you don't care about it. And you start digging yourself a hole if you joke about it.

As to the original story, well, there's an argument to be made that drone strikes aren't a good thing because things like this are excellent points for recruiters for your enemies, regardless of the reason behind it. I'm not well up on it, I freely admit. But something's gotta be motivating these young men to go and fight hopeless battles.

**AustonT**

Da Boss wrote:you lose the moral high ground if you don't care about it. And you start digging yourself a hole if you joke about it.

the digging is improving your position, and erecting overhead cover.

**halonachos**

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
This was after just 3 minutes of Google-Fu. Sorry Matty, but the money saving angle, it's just not there.....

Actually the US canceled its Comanche attack helicopter project due to budget and limited the amount of F-22s the USAF would receive until they improved the system.

Why did they cancel the Comanche helicopter when its supposed to be better than the current Apache? Drones are so much cheaper and if they crash the pilot doesn't die nor can they be captured if they do survive the crash.

Also, now that our B-2 bombers have been modified we can fly them over the north pole to finally get at those Coca-Cola stealing polar bears, either that or bomb Russia from a different flight path. I can assure you that both options lead to bombs being dropped on something red, with stealthiness.

**AustonT**

The Comanche wasn't actually an Apache replacement, it was supposed to be the Cayuse replacement.

**halonachos**

My bad, the Comanche was supposed to replace the Kiowa, Cobra, Iroquois, and Cayuse.

It was supposed to be a light helicopter used for recon, but was scrapped after two were made. Again, the drone was clearly the cheaper and better option for any type of recon.

**Albatross**

I feel that I should point out that I'm not some sort of bleeding heart, and that I do in fact support the West's war on terror for the most part - or at least, I feel that Militant Islam throughout the world should be combated. It's our generation's fascism, or communism. It's a global problem with no easy solution.

The thing is, we have to realise what motivates young men or women in the middle east, south-east Asia, north Africa (sub-saharan Africa too, for that matter) and the Indian sub-continent, not to mention in our own countries, to strap on a bomb and go for a walk in a crowded place. It's stuff like the OP. You have to realise that people are going to criticise the methods that the USA and her allies use in this war, because they are deserving of criticism. It's a dirty conflict. I accept that my government occasionally has to do some pretty shady things - illegal and immoral things at times. Hey, I'm British! We pretty much wrote the book on dirty wars. Look at Northern Ireland - torture, assassinations, massacres, terrorist groups.... And that was just OUR guys!

In the end, you have to take ownership of it, accept it as part of the game and keep your dignity by accepting that sadly, sometimes unsavoury methods are necessary. Celebrating or denying makes things worse. Sticking your fingers in your ears and just going 'la, la...bias...la,la...liberal propaganda...' isn't going to win the war on terror. Dialogue and understanding (and the occasional judicious application of extreme violence) will. And it CAN be won. Once again, look at Northern Ireland. I was back there a few months ago, and it's a completely different place to when I was a kid in the 80s. I went for nights out in in pubs that a bloke like me wouldn't have left alive just 20-odd years ago. No-one ever seriously hoped that NI would be where it is now just a few decades after Bloody Sunday and Omagh. They've decommissioned the military base in my old home town, which would have been unthinkable not that long ago.

**CT GAMER**

Albatross wrote:
I like America and Americans, but I can't help but think that your nation suffers from a strange kind of collective naivete. Your politicians and citizens ask questions like 'why do they hate us?'

Not all of us ask that, only the stupid ones...

As for Brits? You have cool accents and have spawned a s*it load of cool bands so I guess you get a free pass on all the skeletons in your political/military/colonial closet...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote:

That looks like the bus stop I used to live by in Worcester mass.

**halonachos**

CT GAMER wrote:
Albatross wrote:
I like America and Americans, but I can't help but think that your nation suffers from a strange kind of collective naivete. Your politicians and citizens ask questions like 'why do they hate us?'

Not all of us ask that, only the stupid ones...

As for Brits? You have cool accents and have spawned a s*it load of cool bands so I guess you get a free pass on all the skeletons in your political/military/colonial closet...

In reaction to America using unsavory methods in international affairs.

"We learned from you dad, we learned from you.".

**Sgt_Scruffy**

The commanche was scrapped for a number of reasons. The primary reason being that John Q. Insurgent doesn't care that the helicopter is stealthy 'cause it blows up just the same when hit by an RPG-7. The commanche was supposed to sneak up and find/fix/destroy Soviet command and control elements and mobile AA emplacements like ZSU 23-4s and Tunguskas.

Looking at the cost/benefit ration, Commanche would have replaced our entire fleet of OH-58D Kiowa helicopters with fewer, but hilariously more expensive Commanches. The Scrapping of the Commanche project led to the development of the AH-64 Apache Longbow Block III program, an upgrade (and continued maintenance support) of the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior fleet, the purchase of the LUH-72 Lakota for use in disaster relief, counter-drug, and CONUS medevac, as well as continued upgrades to the UH-60A/L and CH-47 D/F fleet.

The drones in question (Reaper, Predator, Global Hawk) are air force programs that were already in development when the Commanche program was shown the door.

**Albatross**

Sooo....You're saying the USA has 'daddy issues'?

Ah, the circle of life.

**Jihadin**

@SHumaGorath

You should loose sleep over it. That's pretty fethed up. It's a sign of psychosis to lose emotional connection to the struggles of others or violence directed at them. Especially when it's something you are present for.

The difference between you and me is I've actually seen and participated in combat when both sides are committed to killing to each. I HOPE none of you all ever find out what taking another life in anger is. It will change you. Except in my cases they were engage to kill my men and me. I did/have not killed an innocent nor my men. Being constantly involved in combat one developes a Emotional Disconnect to the reality of the situation. It becomes normal hence what we're use to over there we bring back and not readjust since we're condition to a very high uptempo (say Hello to PTSD). As for me losing sleep over it. I know what signing the dotted line could mean. I also know I lead and mentor young troops. I set the example for them to follow. I also know what to look for when one of mine is in distress because I have been there myself. I will not condone not allow a 5/2 Stryker incident to happen on my watch (Squad in 5/2 Stryker that were doing thrill kills). I also dealt with when one of mine knows for a fact they killed someone. I make sure that individual is watched and to seek help if needed. Same situation when my troops knew someone who will not being going home with them. Don't prejudge me till you stand and walk in my boots. Which I hope you never will.

Realistically though a 12 year old can not correctly operate an rpg-7.

I seen first hand they do. I also seen them caught with a 8 volt battery and two wires leading to a command detonated IED. One thing I know and it doesn't matter the age and I'm so glad they do....is pull the pin out of the RPG protile

SGT Scrufft

Forgot about the Kiowa Warrior to that went into effect after comanche went down. Which I'm glad it did.

Sooo....You're saying the USA has 'daddy issues'?

Nope but if you need me to be I can be your big brother 8)

**Melissia**

Frazzled wrote:Sad this article is so biased its not funny?

I agree.

I mean, ti's sad that the kid got killed, but this article is so biased it makes my brain hurt even when I'm TRYING to be sympathetic to their point of view.

**chaos0xomega**

Cool story bro!

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Sad it didn't have a fusion bomb warhead? Sad Pakistan's intelligence agency is playing the terrorism game and killing NATO troops? Sad this article is so biased its not funny?

Nope, sad that a 16 year old boy and his 12 year old cousin were killed...Biased reporting or not, that's just sad. Someone should be held accountable, but it won't be whoever pulled the trigger. Drones being piloted by Drones, ironic no?

Ever consider that the target wasn't the 16 year old boy and his 12 year old cousin, that they were just collateral resulting from an attack on the intended target? its unfortunate circumstance, I don't think many americans would be complaining about the loss of two teenagers if they died in an explosion targeted against OBL. In any case, a Hellfire missile costs 70k USD. The Pentagon/Langley isn't going to give weapon release authorization for two teenagers unless they have a reason to. Its not like the old days when troops would just go marauding about randomly, killing everything in their way just for gaks and giggles.

It's reassuring to know that so few of you care about 'that boys life'. The lack of compassion in conservatism is as strong as ever. It's good to know that you people have a role in maintaining the world order. I can't imagine what would happen if you all had hearts as big as your bullets. Now mind you that would still be a very small heart, but the levels of compassion required for feeling bad about a slain 12 year old who wanted practice with his camera doesn't require much more then that.

You ever hear of a circle of compassion? Basically its a sociological theory which more or less states that a humans only apply compassion within a 'circle', i.e. a group/organization/demographic that they associate themselves with. Most peoples circles don't extend to encompass the whole human race, and in fact, most circles are exclusive rather than inclusive. Tariq and his cousin are not within my circle of compassion as unfortunate as that sounds.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Military Intelligence?! Riiiight. You know what, a 12 year old kid is most likely innocent, as is his cousin. Wether or not they were travelling to an Aunts house is pretty much not important. As for the Armed forces not wasting money? Behold some truly wasteful American Spending:

- According to the GAO, the Pentagon could save $184.5 billion by 2015 if they stopped buying military parts and equipment that are never used or are obsolete if they made some simple enhancements to their purchasing processes.

- The V-22 Osprey aircraft is way over budget, way behind schedule, and falling way short of the benefits it was supposed to deliver. Cancelling it and stopping the wasteful money drain would save over $6 billion by 2015.

- The Space Tracking Surveillance System satellite system has failed to deliver on its promises, is behind schedule, and suffers significant cost overruns. More importantly, its job can be handled by much less expensive, proven technology, according to an internal Defense Department analysis.

- Canceling this program would save about $5 billion by 2015.

- The same logic applies to the Expeditionary Force Fighting Vehicle which is 14 YEARS behind schedule and is viewed in its current state as "highly unreliable." Cancel this program and save over $16 billion by 2015.

This was after just 3 minutes of Google-Fu. Sorry Matty, but the money saving angle, it's just not there.....

Awesome bro! You're so well informed that you don't even know what you're talking about!! The EFV was cancelled over a year ago. The V-22 hasn't been over-budget, behind schedule or falling short of any of its promises in over a decade, we have over 100 of the damn things... Leave the budget debates to the big boys, eh?

**Jihadin**

The Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle (EFV) (formerly known as the Advanced Amphibious Assault Vehicle) is an amphibious assault vehicle that was being developed for the U.S. Marine Corps. It is launched at sea, from an amphibious assault ship beyond the horizon, able to transport a full Marine rifle squad to shore. It would maneuver cross country with an agility and mobility equal to or greater than the M1 Abrams.

The EFV was designed to replace the aging AAV-7A1 Assault Amphibious Vehicle (AAV),[2] which entered service in 1972,[3] and was the Marine Corps' number one priority ground weapon system acquisition. It has three times the speed in water and about twice the armor of the AAV, as well as superior fire power. The vehicle was planned to be deployed in 2015;[4] however, on 6 January 2011, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates announced that he recommends the EFV program be canceled.[5][6] The program, which is projected to cost $15 billion, has already cost $3 billion.[7][8]

The Marines have asked for the EFV to be canceled in favor of the Assault Amphibian Vehicle Service Life Extension Program, the Marine Personnel Carrier and the Amphibious Combat Vehicle.[9]

Might want to read a bit more into the EFV before one lining it with conviction

**BrassScorpion**

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/opinion/in-pakistan-drones-kill-our-innocent-allies.html

Op-Ed Contributor
For Our Allies, Death From Above
By CLIVE STAFFORD SMITH
Published: November 3, 2011

Times Topic: Predator Drones and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs)

LAST Friday, I took part in an unusual meeting in Pakistan’s capital, Islamabad.

The meeting had been organized so that Pashtun tribal elders who lived along the Pakistani-Afghan frontier could meet with Westerners for the first time to offer their perspectives on the shadowy drone war being waged by the Central Intelligence Agency in their region. Twenty men came to air their views; some brought their young sons along to experience this rare interaction with Americans. In all, 60 villagers made the journey.

The meeting was organized as a traditional jirga. In Pashtun culture, a jirga acts as both a parliament and a courtroom: it is the time-honored way in which Pashtuns have tried to establish rules and settle differences amicably with those who they feel have wronged them.

On the night before the meeting, we had a dinner, to break the ice. During the meal, I met a boy named Tariq Aziz. He was 16. As we ate, the stern, bearded faces all around me slowly melted into smiles. Tariq smiled much sooner; he was too young to boast much facial hair, and too young to have learned to hate.

The next day, the jirga lasted several hours. I had a translator, but the gist of each man’s speech was clear. American drones would circle their homes all day before unleashing Hellfire missiles, often in the dark hours between midnight and dawn. Death lurked everywhere around them.

When it was my turn to speak, I mentioned the official American position: that these were precision strikes and no innocent civilian had been killed in 15 months. My comment was met with snorts of derision.

I told the elders that the only way to convince the American people of their suffering was to accumulate physical proof that civilians had been killed. Three of the men, at considerable personal risk, had collected the detritus of half a dozen missiles; they had taken 100 pictures of the carnage.

In one instance, they matched missile fragments with a photograph of a dead child, killed in August 2010 during the C.I.A.’s period of supposed infallibility. This made their grievances much more tangible.

Collecting evidence is a dangerous business. The drones are not the only enemy. The Pakistani military has sealed the area off from journalists, so the truth is hard to come by. One man investigating drone strikes that killed civilians was captured by the Taliban and held for 63 days on suspicion of spying for the United States.

At the end of the day, Tariq stepped forward. He volunteered to gather proof if it would help to protect his family from future harm. We told him to think about it some more before moving forward; if he carried a camera he might attract the hostility of the extremists.

But the militants never had the chance to harm him. On Monday, he was killed by a C.I.A. drone strike, along with his 12-year-old cousin, Waheed Khan. The two of them had been dispatched, with Tariq driving, to pick up their aunt and bring her home to the village of Norak, when their short lives were ended by a Hellfire missile.

My mistake had been to see the drone war in Waziristan in terms of abstract legal theory — as a blatantly illegal invasion of Pakistan’s sovereignty, akin to President Richard M. Nixon’s bombing of Cambodia in 1970.

But now, the issue has suddenly become very real and personal. Tariq was a good kid, and courageous. My warm hand recently touched his in friendship; yet, within three days, his would be cold in death, the rigor mortis inflicted by my government.

And Tariq’s extended family, so recently hoping to be our allies for peace, has now been ripped apart by an American missile — most likely making any effort we make at reconciliation futile.

Clive Stafford Smith, an American lawyer, is the director of Reprieve, an organization that advocates for prisoners’ rights.

**Orlanth**

Frazzled wrote:
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Sad it didn't have a fusion bomb warhead? Sad Pakistan's intelligence agency is playing the terrorism game and killing NATO troops? Sad this article is so biased its not funny?

Nope, sad that a 16 year old boy and his 12 year old cousin were killed...Biased reporting or not, that's just sad. Someone should be held accountable, but it won't be whoever pulled the trigger. Drones being piloted by Drones, ironic no?

The article is so biased I can't tell if he was in the wrong place at thw wrong time, a bad guy supporter, a bad guy himself, in a bad guy vehicle, or what. But by the end of the article I did know that aT that point I didn't care.

What are you saying here Frazzie? Bomb the brown guys, its doesn't matter because they come from terroristland.

Congratulations, you have just helped vindicate the extremists.

**ShumaGorath**

They follow the same ROE as ground forces with some additions. There is no exhaustive protocol for each mission as in the duration of the flight several missions may be serviced and you can expect the crew to remember the Conop for every mission. Shoot/ no shoot in non time sensitive and unconfirmed targets requires a specific authorization. Troops or civilians in contact loosens those restrictions to a much lower level. I won't "note" anything, specific SOPs are generally sensitive and vary widely from unit to unit and service to service. A pilot is always authorized to fire in cases of imminent danger. Watch fewer movies.

That sounds wonderful. Very informative/vague and interestingly it conflicts in virtually no way with anything that I've said while being utterly uninformative. Its as if you magically restarted exactly what you were quoting except you threw in jargon and acronyms to flesh out the paragraph.

As for the pilot/our troops being in danger, I'm not sure how some kid in tribal Pakistan is endangering someone immediately. Unless we're in the practice of stealth choppering all around there now the nearest engagement was probably quite a fair distance away. So now that we've cleared up that you don't actually know the specifics of drone operations (how a piloted drone in a different country can follow the same rules of engagement as you did on the ground while prosecuting a mission of observation and assassination is beyond me), how about we drop the pretense and just state that the kid was probably with other militants at the time? Unless our military is truly incompetent there is little reason to believe we would have fired a hellfire at a lone 12 year old with a camera in Pakistan.

I seen first hand they do.

I have trouble believing that a 12 year old wouldn't have trouble operating a weapon that is three quarters of his height and probably a third of his weight. One that his arms would be too short to load appropriately without placing the weapon on the ground every time and one which requires a minimum level of training so that the user doesn't kill his friends with the backblast. A child can do virtually anything that an adult can do and I don't doubt that they've fired the weapon in the past, but this strains credulity from a physical and logical standpoint.

The difference between you and me is I've actually seen and participated in combat when both sides are committed to killing to each. I HOPE none of you all ever find out what taking another life in anger is. It will change you. Except in my cases they were engage to kill my men and me. I did/have not killed an innocent nor my men. Being constantly involved in combat one developes a Emotional Disconnect to the reality of the situation. It becomes normal hence what we're use to over there we bring back and not readjust since we're condition to a very high uptempo (say Hello to PTSD). As for me losing sleep over it. I know what signing the dotted line could mean. I also know I lead and mentor young troops. I set the example for them to follow. I also know what to look for when one of mine is in distress because I have been there myself. I will not condone not allow a 5/2 Stryker incident to happen on my watch (Squad in 5/2 Stryker that were doing thrill kills). I also dealt with when one of mine knows for a fact they killed someone. I make sure that individual is watched and to seek help if needed. Same situation when my troops knew someone who will not being going home with them. Don't prejudge me till you stand and walk in my boots. Which I hope you never will.

The normality of your condition doesn't make it less meaningful or impactful. I am hopeful that upon completion of your duties you can return to normal life, whenever that is. I won't pretend to know what you've seen, but I know that anyone who has seen that kind of combat and who composes himself without emotion towards what they have seen is suffering from something. Emotional detachment isn't an uncommon coping mechanism, but it's not something you want to maintain for extended periods of time and it's not something you should carry like a badge of honor. An unfeeling soldier is a good soldier, but a lack of compassion in war leads to atrocities and the willingness of men to do them.

You ever hear of a circle of compassion? Basically its a sociological theory which more or less states that a humans only apply compassion within a 'circle', i.e. a group/organization/demographic that they associate themselves with. Most peoples circles don't extend to encompass the whole human race, and in fact, most circles are exclusive rather than inclusive. Tariq and his cousin are not within my circle of compassion as unfortunate as that sounds.

I've read the theory and it's fairly sound as a low level. The issue I have with using that theory to justify detachment is that while we are designed to function around a small tribal group the actual reality of modern society doesn't fit our evolved tendencies. Compassion is theoretically taught at a basic level by the society, and a failure to expand that circle of compassion is a failure of the society to correctly rear its people to interact within said society. While I'm understanding of the reasons for peoples detachment I am not particularly forgiving of it. It is at a basic level lazy to forsake the world outside your direct frame of reference, it's unhelpful to the world at large to carry on in a fashion devoid of compassion towards those with whome you do not have direct contact. The human races means to inflict damage upon itself are too great in this day and age for people to operate only on a micro scale while dispassionately observing the world from afar.