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Hello Dakka!


My usual opponent play Imperial Guard, but has also added some Khorne Berzerkers to his army. Since there are not many other players around here and he really wanted to have some 'zerkers, I was okay with it, although, of course, that's not directly in the rules.

The thing is: This army is starting to defeat me consistently, regardless of which army I play. Orks against pure IG went rather well usually, but now that there are 'zerkers protecting his lines, I cannot tarpit his weak units any longer, because the 'zerkers bail them out and kill my killakoptas and boyz squads.

Therefore, I'm hoping to get some tips on how to work against an IG force with C:CSM close-combat MEQ supplements.

He usually fields something like this:

CCS(4 GL)
Lord Commissar
PCS(4 GL), 2 infantry squads (melta/flamer), HWS (missile launchers)
Berzerkers
sometimes a veteran squad
Ratlings
Leman Russ Variant

Comes out to something around 750 points. He castles up in a corner, keeping everything in the LD10 bubble of the Lord Commissar, making it impossible to force an early retreat from damaged units. My Marines just get shot up on my way into rapid-fire range, the Orks often manage to kill a good chunk before getting FRFSRF'ed in the face too hard. And he also has a Vendetta lying around he now wants to assemble, so his AT capabilities will increase greatly.

My armies and capabilites at the moment look like this - these are lists of models, not army lists.

SPACE MARINES
Captain, Librarian in Terminator armour
Dreadnought (MM/DCCW)
Shooty Terminators w/ AsC
15 Tactical Marines (Flamer and ML possible)
5 Sniper scouts in camo-cloaks with ML
1 Rhino/Razorback

These are the guys that lose the most. Not sure when I last won a game with them. However, my artificer armor saves on the captain have been ridiculous the last 2 games...(1,1,1,1,1,2,1 are his saves for both games in a row)

ORKS
Warboss (PK)
Big Mek (KFF)
5-6 Nobz (1 PK, assorted other stuff)
20 Boyz (2 big shootas, rokkit possible)
5 Lootaz
3 Killakoptaz
I often use SM or IG vehicles as looted wagons or trukk proxies, that's somewhat necessary to get to his lines in time.

IMPERIAL GUARD (Catachans)
CCS
Vetsquad (3 flamer)
Vetsquad (3 melta)
Vetsquad (flamer, AC)
Marbo
Sentinel (scout, all weapons)
2 Chimeras (MLAS with HHF/HHB options)
Valkyrie/Vendetta

I haven't played these against him yet. It might've worked before he got that big Leman Russ with AV14 that is hard to deal with, now I'm not completely sure.

Allright! My questions are:

1. Which basic tactics would you employ with SM, Orks and IG against this IG/CSM combo force?
2. Which lists would you make out of the available units and...
3. ...what new units would you acquire ASAP?
4. How do you think would Dark Eldar fare against this force? (Looking into buying some of them)

Looking forward to answers!

Witzkatz

...Firstly, why precisely are you letting him do that? There are no allies rules in 5th edition, unless you're playing an Apocalypse game he has to field two complete detachments (at least 2 Troops and 1 HQ each) to run the two armies simultaneously.

1. If he's hiding in a corner with Guard firepower and Berzerkers, he wants you to get close to him. The Leman Russ and the missile launchers are the only things in that list with longer than 24" range, your first priority is to shut them down from a ways away (as Marines your best options are lascannons, Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment, or a couple of multi-melta Land Speeder Tornadoes (they'll be able to get into range easily enough with 24" move and the Skimmers Moving Fast save, depending on what upgrades the Leman Russ has you'll be able to get two or three Speeders for the same price) to take on the Leman Russ, a Whirlwind with incendiary missiles will probably be plenty to handle the missile launcher squad. As Guard, just take a lot of long-ranged heavy weapons and a Basilisk and you're golden. I'm not as familiar with Orks, but it does look like this is a list specifically designed to counter them, don't run Orks against it). Once you've shut down the missile launchers and the Leman Russ, he has to walk out of cover to come after you since everything he's got left is 24" range.

2. There's not much available variety there. Pick the nastiest and longest-ranged guns you've got available. And make the Dreadnaught shootier, MM/DCCW isn't going to help against this army.

3. A Basilisk and a missile launcher battery for the Guard, a Whirlwind and a Devastator squad for the Marines. He wants you to get close, and everything you've got kind of requires you to.

4. Depends on the list. A good shooty list (Warriors in Raiders, Scourges, Razorwings, Ravagers, Trueborn) would be quite effective, though. Razorwing dumps blast markers into the Guard, Ravager and Raiders use Dark Lances to remove the Leman Russ, then you can get in close on your time to deliver the killing blow with massed splinter weaponry.

I'm letting him do that because he's basically the only person to play against around here and also because he's a bit newer to the game than me. Not a big difference, but I thought I might give him that one unit.

You raise a good point about staying back. I usually try to get an offensive unit (Captain + 5 SM with Flamer) in a Razorback to his lines ASAP - but maybe I should really put TLLCs on that Razorback, proxy my dreadnought with long-range AT weapons and shoot the crap out of his HWS and Leman Russ. Then he has to advance, giving me the first volleys of small-arms fire and potentially also a use of the AP5 on the bolters.

I'll have to test that. I had ingrained in my head that "SM can't outshoot IG", but in this case, it might actually be possible. Thanks for the idea!

The Whirlwind was also an idea I wanted to test. Maybe also or instead a Predator? Little bit more durable and better able to multi-task against armor, depending on pattern.

I'll also keep your comments on DE in mind - right now I have 10 Wyches, Lelith and a Venom lying around because I liked the models. Maybe I'll get Warriors and Raiders and build a nice force up when I get some money in.

All in all thanks for your reply, has already helped a bit.

Quick list I may try soon:


750 Points

HQ
Chapter Master (PW, auxilary GL)

Elite
Dreadnought (TLLC, ML)

Troops
10 Marines (Flamer, ML, melta bombs on Sgt)

5 Marines (combi-plasma on Sgt)
- Razorback (TLLC)

5 Scouts (camo-cloaks, snipers, ML)


Gives me at least 1 orbital bombardment, 3 missiles and 2 twin-linked lascannon shots...(and some snipers who might do something) those are hopfully able to deal with armor at range, which will hopefully pull him in range. of my 24" weapons.

I've always found 1000p and below playing against IG is a "rip your hair out in rage" game. You just can't get enough stuff across the field. When you arrive on the other side of the board, you've just been shot to pieces so much that you don't have enough oomph to stop them. Any game against IG I've always found myself getting mauled for the first two or sometimes three turns, but after that I'm in their face taking their lunch money

Jihallah wrote:I've always found 1000p and below playing against IG is a "rip your hair out in rage" game. You just can't get enough stuff across the field. When you arrive on the other side of the board, you've just been shot to pieces so much that you don't have enough oomph to stop them. Any game against IG I've always found myself getting mauled for the first two or sometimes three turns, but after that I'm in their face taking their lunch money

My 50 Orks at 500P disagree. But we hates the Manticore batteries.

Yeah, Orks are the one army I field that at least have a chance against my opponent's IG at this point level. Hell, last game I even outnumbered him, like Inquisitor Varon seems to do it, too. That gave me enough bodies to roll up half his field - before rolling a 1 for a Waaagh! and dieing horribly between close combats.

Space Marines on the other side...100 points are necessary for a HQ. That's one guy. He can theoretically field a CCS and an infantry squad belonging ot a PCS for that. 15 guys. A 10-man Tac-Squad is 170, with upgrades maybe 180. He can get a PCS and 30 men for that....10 against 35. Both together - 11 Marines against 50 guardsmen. In a straight-up firefight, I think Marines just need too long to kill those guardsmen, especially if he manages to squeeze in a Lord Commissar for the LD10 bubble. Meanwhile, it's easy for 11 Marines to fail 3+ saves from time to time and they lose a huge chunk of their troops.

That's why I'm trying to get more armor to the field right now, to make his gazillion lasguns useless. I often tried to storm his lines with a dreadnought, only to be roasted by a single BS3 meltagun in a 60pts infantry squad - so now I'll try what I wrote above and actually try a distance fight with armor and Marines in cover to kill his AT and lure him out. Maybe, if he has to advance, I'll manage to kill enough of them before getting swarmed in cheap guardsmen bodies.

scout bikers can first turn assault, they can pretty much single handedly blow up his long ranged firepower

think about a thunderfire cannon, make him come to you after you deal with that leman


orcs should drop the nobs, pick up a ton more boys and/or looters

IG can outshoot him

really though, all the above are good ideas, landspeeders, a deepstriking dread, anything to remove that leman then sit back and shoot until he dies.

Consider a manticore. with a str10 big blast landing on his cluster every turn, which is ap4, ignoring all but his zerks PA saves. you can put this up to 120" away as well, which if your playing on a big board will out range his russ. your templates will be more effective against his infantry than him will be against your manticore.

InquisitorVaron wrote:

Jihallah wrote:I've always found 1000p and below playing against IG is a "rip your hair out in rage" game. You just can't get enough stuff across the field. When you arrive on the other side of the board, you've just been shot to pieces so much that you don't have enough oomph to stop them. Any game against IG I've always found myself getting mauled for the first two or sometimes three turns, but after that I'm in their face taking their lunch money

My 50 Orks at 500P disagree. But we hates the Manticore batteries.

My bad I meant as SM/CSM