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Hey guys,

I love the Defiler, but am reluctant to play it often with such a measly AV12/12/10 and an enormous model that is difficult to hide and provide cover for. And while it neither excels specifically in shooting or close combat, it does have its uses in a Chaos army. Plus it's a unique Chaos unit which is always a bonus in my eyes.

The Daemons' Soul Grinder gets to be 13/13/11 and cost 15pts less with it's base loadout, why can't the CSM Daemon engine be just as hardy?

At least give us players back the option for 'Mutated Hull' to increase all AV sides by 1, for 15-20 points. Is that too unreasonable?

While the upgrade doesnt sound unreasonable, why are you complaining about armour 12?

Personally I'd love AV 12 on my vehicles. As dark Eldar we fly around in cardboard boxes and even our heaviest facing is AV11. Also we ignore armour past 12 anyway but hey

Anyways - rant aside, Personally I'd have no quarrel with the additional armour option.

@ovion
You can't compare dark eldar armor with Chaos armour, the two codex(i?) have very different pros and cons, and we're talking about the chaos codex here. I understand that from you'r perspective, AV 12 is alot, but for the chaos players, AV 12 is not very much when you can't go all out, or even hide your vehicle behind cover.

@OP
I definitely agree, the defiler should be AV 13, or at least have an upgrade to make it AV 13. 12 dies all too easily...

Indeed. Defilers (or any CSM behicles for that matter) are not skimmers, can't get 5+ inv saves or flat-out for cover saves or to get out f the fire, and can't fire extra weapons when moving past 6" like DE stuff can. Their only durability is piling on armor.

They do, however, ignore stunned/shaken results and come with a battle cannon though.

Artanis wrote:
The Daemons' Soul Grinder gets to be 13/13/11 and cost 15pts less with it's base loadout, why can't the CSM Daemon engine be just as hardy?

Apples to oranges.

Artanis wrote:
At least give us players back the option for 'Mutated Hull' to increase all AV sides by 1, for 15-20 points. Is that too unreasonable?

Yes, that's totally unreasonable. 13 armor is substantially tougher than 12. That would be closer to +50 points.

Even then, it should not be allowed. This is petulant whining. If a Marine player wanted all his marines to be T5 for no other reason than he thought they weren't tough enough, would you be content with that?

I disagree with the Armor 12, it is a Defiler not a dreadnaught. I hate cookie cutter armies with different paint sceems. Defiler is a big bad beast walker, it should be more expensive with more armor. Give it an invonerable Save or something that makes it a different tactic then a dreadnaught.