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In a game tonight I charged a unit of wraiths with whip coils charged a unit of grey knight terminators with quicksilver. Now quicksilver gives them initiative 10 but whip coils says all models in base contact are initiative 1. So which takes precedence?

whip coils.

Whip Coils, but not because of any sort of precedence.

The librarian raises the squads actual initiave to 10 for the turn. Whip Coils reduce models in B2B to initiative 1 regardless of what the actual value is (IE reduces initiative 10 down to initiative one as that currently is the grey knight's actual initiative value.

I disagree with both above posts. The actual wording for Whip Coils is that it reduces the model's initiative value to 1. That has nothing to do with modifiers. A model that strikes at Initiative 1 because of a power fist still has an Initiative value of 4 (for a marine). You can strike at a different initiative than your "intiative value". Howling Banshees strike at Initiative 10, even though their Initiative value is 5.

Whip Coils reduce your Initiative value to 1. If you had Furious Charge, you would strike at Initiative 2. A Carnifex with Adrenal Glands would still strike at Inititave 4 - it's initiative value is already 1. I think Quicksilver (and any modifier) takes precedence.

Puma, unfortunately precedence says otherwise.

Q: If a model with a Nemsesis force halberd has had his
Initiative reduced to a fixed number by an
ability/special rule, do they still get the +2 Initiative
from the Halberd? (p54)
A: No.

Unless you look at the Tyranid FAQ which says otherwise:

Q: If a model with Lash Whips is attacking a model
with an Initiative-boosting rule/piece of wargear (e.g.
Furious Charge, an Eldar Banshee Mask etc.), which
order are the Initiatives modified?

A: The Lash Whips will reduce an enemy model’s
initiative to 1 before any other modifiers are
applied. So, a model with Furious Charge that
assaults a Tyranid with Lash Whips will strike at
Initiative 2, and an Eldar with a Banshee Mask will
strike at Initiative 10 in the first round of assault

Doesn't the rule state if two rules conflict either ignore the two rules or D6 it.

Due to obvious advantage either side would get with a poor ruling, I 'd suggest the Coil and Quicksilver cancel each other out and the models fight in normal initiative order.

If it wasn't for the FAQ ruling on Tyranid Lash Whips (which have literally the same effect) I'd agree with you.

rigeld2 wrote:If it wasn't for the FAQ ruling on Tyranid Lash Whips (which have literally the same effect) I'd agree with you.

What's that have to do with anything except for tyranid lash whips?

Folks here think that there is some sort of 'precedent' that gw follows.

There is no precedent used in gw at all.

imweasel wrote:
What's that have to do with anything except for tyranid lash whips?

Folks here think that there is some sort of 'precedent' that gw follows.

It's true that current FAQ rulings will ultimately have nothing to do with whatever GW decides to do with whip coils given their lack of consistency with these things. But in the meantime we have to figure out some way to play this and the nid FAQ has a ruling which addresses a very similar piece of wargear. So for the interim it seems reasonable to use the nid FAQ as a guide. It's certainly much more appealing to me than dicing off and the variable outcomes that gives.

doesn't the "regardless of iniative" part mean... regardless of iniative, so its 1 right?

Formosa wrote:doesn't the "regardless of iniative" part mean... regardless of iniative, so its 1 right?

Nid lash whips say the same thing and GW ruled otherwise.

I would rule the same as the nids FAQ. Seems like the wargear is meant to affect weaker less advanced units like basic marines and slugga boyz.

I like how the two precedents state opposite things, and yet people decide to go with one exclusively.

Personally, I believe that a RAW reading of the rules suggest modifiers to still work on the models initiative, although the other way would probably be preferable and make more sense from a RAI perspective.

I'm still in favor of canceling out. Two different rulings suggest no easy resolution unit the Coil is FAQed.

Irdiumstern wrote:I like how the two precedents state opposite things, and yet people decide to go with one exclusively.

One deals with generic "set initiative number" modifications, one deals specifically with an exact duplicate of this item in another army.

Which precedent does it make sense to apply?

rigeld2 wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:I like how the two precedents state opposite things, and yet people decide to go with one exclusively.

One deals with generic "set initiative number" modifications, one deals specifically with an exact duplicate of this item in another army.

Which precedent does it make sense to apply?

Obviously not the nids FAQ, GW sprayed it down with Raid. I won't be surprised at all if the crons get faq'd to work like the GK one opposed to the nids one.

That would make me cry IRL. And hope that Nids get another book/FAQ soon (Yes, I know they just got one... but stupid rules like that make me not want to play, at all).

I'm betting that the Cron FAQ will say that the coils take effect after all other initiative modifiers except the GK halberds. It's the only way they could keep dividing by zero.

Arschbombe wrote:It's the only way they could keep dividing by zero.

Unfortunately GW makes an art of dividing by zero.

It would have to be an art, because I cannot think of any science that would permit it!

This is a tough one overall. Trying to apply the idea of specific vs general...

Quicksilver enables all models in the affected unit to strike at I10, Whip Coils forces models in b2b from the affected unit to strike at I1.

I guess you can make an argument for 'one time' effects that occur on the charge like a banshee mask, furious charge, battering ram being more specific than whip coils, where a GK Halbred is more general since it always applies...

calypso2ts wrote:

Quicksilver enables all models in the affected unit to strike at I10, Whip Coils forces models in b2b from the affected unit to strike at I1.

That's just it - the wording is not that the affected unit strikes at Initiative 1. The effect is that their initiative value is 1. A charging Carnifex has an intiative value of 1, but it still strikes at Iniative 3 (or 4 depending on its upgrades).

I would just ignore both and strike at Int value, or roll off.

I would not agree wirth the Nid FAQ ruling as a viable source. It seems GW are DETERMNINED to nuke the Nidfs, but that is just a conspiracy theory.

Got to love contradicting FAQs. Anyhow to the OP. The terminators would not have had quicksilver if you charged them because quicksilver can only be used at the beginning of the GK movement turn. So when you go to charge them their initiative is back to basic.

So this problem that everyone is debating wouldn't take place unless the assault continued into the GK player's turn.

I'd love to see the whip coils reduce everything to I1 , no questions asked, but I would be shocked if they did with the nid FAQ and how their lash whips are almost verbatim what the wraiths whipcoil does.

If GW does indeed favor the way of the 'crons whipcoil, they would almost be FORCED to update the nid FAQ to allow the same thing.

We'll see... I own both nids and 'crons so I'm very, VERY biased in this

Any time that there is an unclear rule, it's simple to figure out what GW intended.

If it's in power armor, they meant the rule to be as powerful as possible.

If it's a xenos, it's meant to be as weak as powerful.

This is a xenos, ergo interprete the rule to be as bad as possible. Quicksilver will rule over the whips as quicksilver is a marine power... see how easy that is.

;-)

Rule doesnt seem that unclear.

"Whilst a model is in base contact they count their initiative as 1 regardless of actual value"

Not the same as a models initiative is reduced to 1.

So regardless of what your initiative value is, its 1. Not reduced to 1 but counted as 1.

reducing to =/= count as

blaktoof wrote:Rule doesnt seem that unclear.

"Whilst a model is in base contact they count their initiative as 1 regardless of actual value"

Not the same as a models initiative is reduced to 1.

So regardless of what your initiative value is, its 1. Not reduced to 1 but counted as 1.

reducing to =/= count as

You'd think that, but (I'm at work, codex is at home) the Lash Whip reads the same.

weird.

I was just going by the earlier posted faq answer that said it reduces.

With any luck there will be an FAQ by the end of the month, so we could get it fixed there.