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So, since the game is in a moment of evolution and that the CSM are becoming less and less threatening to the Imperium, it's kinda time for us fellow heretics to take a moment to make a brainstorming! So its simple : just give a suggestion. Pretty simple heh? After all, for someone named Khornate25 on the forums, it was kinda clear I could not came with something more complex than this. So here's what I suggest (thought the ideas may not be originally from me) :

Either GW do one of these three :

1-Make a codex that covers all of the Chaos Factions, which includes : Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Heretics (Chaos IG, Cultist, Mutants, etc.).
2-Make a codex for each of the Legions theme (thought it would kinda be weird since in a way, the Chaos Legions are no more and have broken in several warbands which sometime combine CSm from different origins)
3-Make a codex where we select a Legion Theme.

Of course these options can be tweaked I guest. Some are not incompatible in some ways.

Also, I would also like to see these nthing :

Berzerkers with a CC of 5 (even if it means dropping their extra atk)
Terminators with fearless and more guns
Champions are no longer an option, each unit come already with soldiers and captain (like most of the codex I have)
Less need of vehicules
Summoned Daemons come with their real stats and price
Chaos Lord that's not easy to kill and your not laugh at when you choose him instaed of a Deamon Prince
Deamon Prince with the options in the Daemons codex
Dreadnought with a nicer look and not crazed rule please.
More options in the weapons
Bring the gifts of chaos, and some mutations please.

Honestly? I'd like to see a Legions codex where the list is reflective of the fact that yeah, these are the guys that built the Imperium with their toil and blood, and who then nearly broke it. That these are the guys who stood atop the shattered and broken walls of the Emperor's palace and brought fear to a living god.

There really shouldn't be anything loyalist side that should match a Chaos Lord in combat (with a cost to go with it of course) and the Legion troops should be relatively more capable not only for their greater experience and arcane weaponry, but because they've also been fighting in the service of the Dark Gods across space and time in unimagineable environments against impossible foes, and have the blessings and gifts of unspeakable powers to match (again, with costs to match, it shouldn't be another spank like SW's get to be better and cheaper)

In more practical terms, basically this means access to upgrade options like veteran skills and more stat modification.

I'd like to see Terminators fleshed out more with some additional shooting options, having shooting oriented terminators would be fun.

I'd like to see Chaos Dreads that aren't random to the point of they are don't do what you want them to do 1/3 turns.

More arcane/weird weaponry, the Legions took half the mechanicus with them who are no longer bound by physical, much less Mechanicus, law to create their insane inventions.

Raptors should get Hit and Run back, that really helped define them in the 3.5E codex and in terms of background I have a hard time thinking of a unit better suited to the rule.

Basically in general I'd like to see the book portray the CSM's as the ancient enemy of the Imperium, borne of its own excesses and abuses, with lots of upgrades to represent insane experience and the unshackling from physical and material laws. Highly powerful but expensive HQ's, with cheaper "lieutenant" options like C:SW and C:CSM 3.5 have/had, daemon engines, vet skills, arcane weaponry, etc.

I'd expect C:CSM Legions to be a relatively small model count army that's highly flexible, much like Grey Knights but without the derpy min/maxability of Henchmen units and sillyness like 5pt Psyrifleman upgrades.

Dark apostles and the idea of a big chaos faction list with every army in it sounds cool, but would probably be way too overpowered.

yeah... maybe mister Ward could help us? Anyway, the way the things seem to be going, Overpowered will soon become regular if you ask my humble opionion. We are at the brink of evolution where godlike power become accessible to almost anyone lol.

If anything I'd like to see it force you to play mono armies, or take an army wide debuff if you go chaos undivided.

It's true that I have always found that for Superhuman who were (at least some of them) nearly thousand of years old (and horribly mutated by the chaos) had the same stats that the regular SM counterpart. I mean, shouldn't they be stronger or something like that? The only thing they have better is a better leadership stats, and even then, most of the time on the table my opponent have fearless units. Then I'm stuck with choosing Plague Marines... and hell do I hate those putrid and ugly dudes. I mean, they aren't even scary looking! God, who would be horrified of being attacked by a increibly sick dude? More disgusted if you ask me.

Necroshea wrote:If anything I'd like to see it force you to play mono armies, or take an army wide debuff if you go chaos undivided.

A debuff would not be the way to go, there are plenty of fluff examples of armies containing forces of many or all the great gods of Chaos and chaos in all its glory, there's no reason to punish undivided armies. However, a return of the old animosity rules could be in order.

I don't personally think they should go the way of grey knights by the low model count because that would be a bore to only need 20 models lIke grey knights do and dominate from what I've heard.

Chaos Cultists that have abilities like psyker battle squads would be cool.

Vaktathi wrote:

Necroshea wrote:If anything I'd like to see it force you to play mono armies, or take an army wide debuff if you go chaos undivided.

A debuff would not be the way to go, there are plenty of fluff examples of armies containing forces of many or all the great gods of Chaos and chaos in all its glory, there's no reason to punish undivided armies. However, a return of the old animosity rules could be in order.

Ah, right right. What about something like this, you choose your patron god. Using the following table...

Khorne - Can't use slaanesh models
Tzeentch - Can't use nurgle models
And Vice Versa

A Khorne army could use nurgle and tzeentch models, but not slaanesh.

Now if you go chaos undivided, army wide animosity. The a LD test is made by the HQ with no bonuses and a -1 for every chaos element present on the field (or HQ with highest LD) each round to prevent animosity.

I don't have my rulebook nearby so I'm not sure how animosity works.

Less spiky pirates and more unspeakable horrors from a place beyond time and space.

Noise marines with sonic weapons as their default weapon.

Khorne Berzerkers that give death company a run for their money.

Traitor guard and mutants, either in the legion book or a renegade LatD style book.

Demon princes with more than three options (mark, wings, psyker).

Some new vehicles that are not just copied from loyalist space marines.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Some new vehicles that are not just copied from loyalist space marines.

This I would be interesting to see. However, anything short of a daemon/machine walker ala soul grinder would just be a monstrous creatures.

Khorne Walker Mech - Hate Engine
Nurgle - ?
Tzeentch Floating six sided box
Slaanesh - multicolored Coatl tunneler snake thing

Just abstract ideas

Khornate25 wrote:yeah... maybe mister Ward could help us? Anyway, the way the things seem to be going, Overpowered will soon become regular if you ask my humble opionion. We are at the brink of evolution where godlike power become accessible to almost anyone lol.

As far as I knew, the game was always about all the armies being overpowered.

Also - JustDave has a PDF Fandex that should cover all your wishes...

The codex format for CSM hasn’t largely changed since their 3rd edition which in turn has always closely mirrored the Loyalist format. Personally I’m hoping the next CSM codex ditches the current format in favour of a new one.

I’ve always envisaged Chaos revolving around flexible, highly customisable, elite units (ala Space Wolfs and GK). Vaktathi has pretty much hit the nail on the head IMO in that the Chaos should be small model list like GK but without the min-maxing silliness seen in the GK codex.

-legion themes (and a couple others, like red corsairs)-- they really weren't broken but did reward you for a limited list
-lost and the damned returning in some incarnation (why I left 40k for upwards of 5 years)
-real demons (fine if it's limited selection or worse rules, but no stupid generic ones.

That's about it, other than general game balance and some nice options.

I just hope beyond hope that the idiot that wrote the tyranids codex is struck dumb before he or matt ward has anything to do with codex Legions.

CSM bikes. If so, I'm happy!

I want Siege of Terra fluff from Chaos' view rather than the Imperial side. Something along the lines of


Legion rules, marks, Elite units which show other aspects of the gods. Skeletal Death Shroud for the Death Guard, tacticians or honourable warriors for Khorne, Infiltrating assassins for Tzeentch, precise, perfect warriors for Slaanesh.

I only have one wish, and one wish only. More Nurgle UNITS!!!.

I always wanted to make a Nurgle themed CSM army, so if new aditional Nurgle would be made it would make me a happy little heretic<3

I want to continue playing my very fluffy Chaos list with elements of all 4 big Chaos gods, including all 4 Cultist Troops.

The game of 40K as it is now is punished enough with bland mono-spam armies. Chaos is one of the few out there that still promote unit synergy and diversity, and it should continue to do so with a vengance.

Flufff wise, the Legions broke up. There's no need for mono-lists. They are boring to paint. Boring to play and play against. They clash with the established fluff.

Zweischneid wrote:I want to continue playing my very fluffy Chaos list with elements of all 4 big Chaos gods, including all 4 Cultist Troops.

That's fine, there's nothing wrong with those armies in their proper context, however...

The game of 40K as it is now is punished enough with bland mono-spam armies. Chaos is one of the few out there that still promote unit synergy and diversity

How so? Very little of the Chaos units work together spectacularly well and, in terms of mixing troops, it's hard to find where it extensively rewards diversity in any meaningful way.

Flufff wise, the Legions broke up.

*Some* have broken up. Others remain fairly united or at least enough so that there are large enough groups to be considered Chapter sized or larger in their own right so having tons of miscelaneous troops from other legions wouldn't fit, Legions like the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Black Legion, Thousand Sons and Death Guard are all still fairly united or united enough to fit this description.

Even then, for 40k sized games, there's no reason warband of 40-60 dudes couldn't all still be from one legion even for something like the World Eaters or Emperor's Children.

There's no need for mono-lists.

They still very much fit many Chaos legion forces

They are boring to paint.

In what way and how any more so than any other faction in this game?

Boring to play and play against.

In *your* opinion, there are a rather large number of Chaos Space Marine players that would disagree, and again, in what way are they different than any other faction in that regard?

They clash with the established fluff.

Only if you insist that chaos armies should always have factions of multiple gods, which isn't any less boring or fluff clashing than mono-god armies, much moreso in fact in the eyes of many players.

Zweischneid wrote:I want to continue playing my very fluffy Chaos list with elements of all 4 big Chaos gods, including all 4 Cultist Troops.

The game of 40K as it is now is punished enough with bland mono-spam armies. Chaos is one of the few out there that still promote unit synergy and diversity, and it should continue to do so with a vengance.

The only Chaos army that did this was Black Legion. All the others stick to their own tactics.

Flufff wise, the Legions broke up.

The World Eaters are the only legion that truly shattered. Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Night Lords are still in pretty big warbands. Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Black Legion are still legions proper. Alpha Legion probably is too.

There's no need for mono-lists.

There never was a need for mono lists. They just had special advantages and disadvantages.

They are boring to paint.

So if you don't like painting you army all the same, don't. There's nothing forcing you to.

Boring to play and play against.

By extension, it's boring to play any army in 40k because they're using special rules in their codex.

They clash with the established fluff.

No they don't. Marines following the same god are more likely to band together. Marines loyal to the same primarch are more likely to fight together. What clashes with established fluff is having a Khorne/Slaanesh army, or Nurgle/Tzeentch army.

I would like an idea similar to Chapter Tactics. You know, like Lucius gives all MoS fleet or something. I would like to see summoned Daemons come in as Elites and Greaters as HQ, but same rules.

OR

Make them the same FOC, but with correct stats for different marks.

Deadshot wrote:I would like an idea similar to Chapter Tactics. You know, like Lucius gives all MoS fleet or something. I would like to see summoned Daemons come in as Elites and Greaters as HQ, but same rules.

I like this idea a lot, it would certainly be a step in the right direction, while keeping GW's current structure in play. It might create some stupid builds, but what won't?

The problem is that tons of people really hated have to take a special character to play their force, and it doesn't make sense to have such SC's in every army either. Lucius doesn't appear in every Emperor's Children Warband, Typhus leads but a splinter group of the Death Guard, Ahriman controls only a small group of Thousand Sons, etc. The idea doesn't appeal much to me personally either, especially as many of these SC's aren't exactly cheap and nobody wants to be forced to take a more-expensive-than-normal HQ just to field a thematic list, especially as the character may or may not be appropriate fluffwise.

If you're going the way of Chapter tactics, a more reasonable thing would be for a Chaos Lord of a certain warband has access to two, but can only use one each battle. eg, an Emperor's Children Chaos Lord can either bestow Fleet or Furious Charge, but Lucius gives both maybe.

Well, I disagree with Vaktathi. SM must take a more expensive Character than normal to do such things. its not like Every Green Captain with a Relic Blade is Vulkan.

And niether does SM have a default themed list. Shrike does not feature in every Raven Guard Strike Force, yet people have Raven Guard armie that benefit much better from a Libby, or MotF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One thing the should fix is Mark of Chaios Ascendent VS Shield Breaker.

How about Iron Warriors get there damn basilisk and drop two fast and get another hvy rules back. then id start my old chaos army up again.

porkchop806 wrote:How about Iron Warriors get there damn basilisk and drop two fast and get another hvy rules back. then id start my old chaos army up again.

Please work on your spelling and grammar.

Right now Iron Warriors are perfectly usable in a force with 3 Vindicators, but I feel like an Iron Warriors special character that let you take Havocs or Oblits as Elites instead of heavy support could be interesting. It would give them more heavy support options without arbitrarily including a basilisk in the army, which, let's face it, is a little chintzy. I don't understand why Iron Warriors would get to loot a basilisk but not a Chimera, Leman Russ, Hellhound, Valkyrie, or what have you. If it's meant to represent traitor IG using basilisks, why can't they use other vehicles, as per my previous statement?

On a sort of related note, I hope you'll be able to mark vehicles and summoned daemons. It's safe to assume that "proper" daemons won't be included in the army, since that would be stepping on the toes of Codex: Chaos Daemons too much. Being able to mark summoned daemons or buy some similar upgrade would help mitigate this. Marking vehicles could be really cool too, with Slaanesh getting better movement speed, Nurgle getting stronger armor, Khorne getting deffrolla-style options, and Tzeentch getting invulnerable saves. Those are just examples though.

I more meant that the special character option would work, assuming they continue in the direction they're going. In all honesty, by far I'd be happiest with a reprint of the previous edition of Codex: chaos, with wording/options/points updated, and the Lost and the Damned list added to the Books of Chaos section.