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So I got my hands on a small Eldar army and I'm looking to whip it into fighting shape.
I'm willing to spend some money to fill in the blanks, but I'm not looking to just build a stock mechdar list or something.
My goal is to play a versatile TAC army that's fun in friendly games, but still has teeth in a serious duel.

I've got the following models to start with:
HQ: Eldrad, Farseer, 5 Warlocks, Avatar
FA: 3 shining spears
Tr: 5 Wraithguard, 10 Rangers, 20 Dire Avengers
HS: 2 Wraithlord, 3 support Platforms
EL: 10 Fire Dragons, 10 Harlequins (w/DJ, SS, TM)
X: 2 Dark Reaper Exarchs, 2 Wave Serpents

I don't have a lot of experience putting eldar lists together, and I haven't gotten found my Fingerspitzengefühl with the faction yet. Any advice is welcome.

You have a good start for footdar or mechdar there.

For Footdar you will need another 5 wraithguard and add one of your warlocks (with conceal) to make them troops. This gives you a rock hard troops choice that can soak up a crazy amount of firepower and hold most assault units in place until the harlies can counter charge and mash them (classic hammer and anvil). I normally stick Eldrad with them fortuning them and the Avatar who can also help the assaults while providing your army with a fearless bubble. You also have dire avengers which I love for their threat at 24" range inc their movement. One piece of advice I'd give on these is don't give the Exarch Baldestorm (if you take an exarch) as they are better if they are shooting every turn. The wraithlords also compliment this build giving you more counter assault and ranged anti tank shooting. I don't rate the Shining spears as they don't have enough attacks. The support platforms, Dark reapers and rangers, to me, are too static to fit with footdar which I've always found are better if they stick together for mutual support. I don't run Fire dragons in my lists as I find that they are too much of a juicy target for everyone and my fortunes are better employed elsewhere. I know that some others swear by them though.

If I were to add anything to what you have though I'd say a squadron of WW's either with Scatter lasers or EML's depending on your own preference. The scatter lasers make a mockery of any infantry unit with 24 S6 shots per turn out to 36" range. Combine this with guide from a farseer and even termi units will be scared. The EML's give you better range, better anti tank and more versatility as they can drop 6 small blast templates if they don't have any armour to target. I also use a couple of guardian squads as thee are cheap scoring units and give you another couple of heavy weapons.

For Mechdar the Dire Avengers are a staple choice here for your troops and if you follow the current trend for MSU's then you could have four scoring units. You would need to buy more Wave Serpents though. Your Firedragons again could be split into 2 five man squads (once again in Wave serpents) to provide you with anti tank capability. Eldrad and farseer could have a place (Eldrad fortuning 2 transports) however you might be better adding an Autarch to increase the reliability of your reserve rolls. I don't rate the Avatar in mechdar myself. All that you would then need to add would be Fireprisms to complete the list.

In my own advice it would cost you less to fill in the blanks on a footdar list. Good luck and enjoy.

Two good eldar guides:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227419.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/402275.page

Both give tactics, list ideas, etc. I'd say look at them and from there decide on what direction you want to take your list.

5 Wraithguard count as Elites. To make them troops you need 10.

Instead of buying 5 more though, buy more wave serpents for your DA.


Wraithguard, Support Platforms, Shining Spears and Dark Reapers are questionable value.

Wraithlords will need CC support of some kind.

junk wrote:So I got my hands on a small Eldar army and I'm looking to whip it into fighting shape.
I'm willing to spend some money to fill in the blanks, but I'm not looking to just build a stock mechdar list or something.
My goal is to play a versatile TAC army that's fun in friendly games, but still has teeth in a serious duel.

I've got the following models to start with:
HQ: Eldrad, Farseer, 5 Warlocks, Avatar
FA: 3 shining spears
Tr: 5 Wraithguard, 10 Rangers, 20 Dire Avengers
HS: 2 Wraithlord, 3 support Platforms
EL: 10 Fire Dragons, 10 Harlequins (w/DJ, SS, TM)
X: 2 Dark Reaper Exarchs, 2 Wave Serpents

I don't have a lot of experience putting eldar lists together, and I haven't gotten found my Fingerspitzengefühl with the faction yet. Any advice is welcome.

I haven't played Eldars myself. In the middle of gathering a list myself (mech though). But i did stumble across some footlists along the way. And from what you've got, you're close!

Footdar:

HQ
- Avatar 155
- Eldrad 210

Troops
- 5 Rangers (for pinning down Heavy Weapons or similar) 95
- 10 Dire Avengers - can either be shooty (ex, dual cat, BS) or tarpit (ex, shimmer, defend)
- 10 Guardians - shooties /w EML 100 (repeat these for more meat and EMLs)
- J-Bikes, Warlock, Dest, S-spear, S-cannon 134

(Haven't played around with Wraithguards. So i can't speak my case there.)

Elite
- 5 Firedragons, Ex, F-pike, C-shot 105
- 10 Harlequins, kisses 250

Fast Attack
- - -

Heavy Support
- Wraithlord, B-lance, EML 155
- 3 Walkers, S-laser 180

(HS can be either 2x WLs + WWs or you can go all-out on the WLs)

Footdar can field various units, but they usually field a good pile of fearless meat, the Avatar, Eldrad, 2-3 Wraithlords and a good portion of guns on top of it all.
- Whatever you give or take, evolve the list around the things set in stone for these guys (biggies and meaties).


Mechdar obviously evolves around Mechies. You'd want a good portion of WS'es to skim across the field, outflanking and utilizing it's speed to gain the advantage (as they're few in numbers)

Mechlist often choose between:

HQ:
- Eldrad/Farseer, doom, Runes of Warding (minimum choices for a Farseer!)
- Yriel/Autarch on bike /w Mandi, F-gun & L-lance - for a reserve-based army (works well against alpha striking armies)

Elite
- 5 Firedragons (naked) in WS /w Stones, TLS-Cannon (repeat 2-3 times)
- 10 Banshees, ex, acro, exec (good with Yriel IC'ed to 'em)

Troops
- Dire Avengers, either 10 /w ex, BS, dual cats or 5 naked as a DAVU (makes WS scoring) both in a WS with EML
- 10 Storm Guardians + Warlock, 2 flamers, Dest, WS /w Stones, TLS-Cannon
- 4 GJ/warlock, S-cannon, S-speak, destructor/embolden (take which ever you prefeer!)

--- You often see repeats of DAs, DAVUs or the GJBs. Furthermore, the DAVUs never leave the transport, as they're not meant for transporting, but rather as scoring. This gives you the option to keep them at a distance, and if you're daring enough, add a bigger gun to the WS (lance or EML for example)

Fast Attack
- 3 Vypers (upgrades depends on how you'd want them. But overall they're fragile, and the Warwalkers is an overall better deal, when it comes down to packing guns. OTOH, they've got a good maneuverability and could aid you outflanking. But then again - so could an outflanking group of Warwalkers!)
- 10 Warp Spiders (not sure how to fit these guys. But there's the option to add the Autarch /w teleport upg.)

Heavy Support
- Prism, Holo-fields (2 prefeered)
- Night Spinner, Holo' (72" range and alot of other nasty stuff)
or
- 3 Warwalkers

Thats about all my fail-brain can remember. For now...

Wow, this is some fantastic input; and I really appreciate it.

I think Foot lists are my comfort zone, and tend to build most of my lists with 2-3 transports max.

I really like the profile on the wraithguard, and with their improved stealth I think Pathfinders/rangers will make great troop choices.

if I do this, I can get away without spending too much money:

Eldrad + Avatar + Warlocks
2x10 Dire Avengers w/ BL Wave serpents
1x5-10 Pathfinders
1x10 Wraithguard+warlock (removed for lower point games)
5 Fire Dragons w/ BL Wave Serpent
5 Fire Dragons w/ BL Wave Serpent
Full Harley Squad
2 Wraithlords + BL/EML
3 War Walkers + SL

6 Lances enough? Good CC, nice anti infantry... Maybe EML on the walkers? Buying 3 walkers 2 serpents and 5 wraithguard is still getting away pretty cheap.

If I can get away without picking up Vypers/Night Spinners/Fire prisms, I'd love that, but of the 3 I think Fire Prisms are the most appealing.

However you play your lists is up to you junk however IMOHO your better keeping to all foot or all mech. In your list you have a good mix of both.

If I had that army I would buy 2 more Wave Serpents for sure. That allows to use your 2 WS with 10 DA each and split your 10 Fire Dragons in 2 units with a WS each. This is a pretty good base for any battle.

Also I'd consider buying 1 or 2 Falcons and 1 or 2 Fire Prisms. Falcons with holo fields are durable gunboats and Fire Prisms can dish out some serious pain for a reasonable price (for Eldar standards that is). Also with little effort you can magnetise Fire Prisms so you can use them as Night Spinners as well.

You are looking for a fun to play eldar force while it still has some bite?

How about posing the biggest challenge then? Make a hybrid list containing elements rom both the footdar and mechdar. I'm doing it myself and although I have to admit that it IS a challenge to play, it is also very funny.

The eldar is not only foot or mech in my mind but the combined force of both, granted it doesn't always work and you definetely have to think it over when playing it is way more fun than the regular dogmatic eldar view (no offense)

Just my two cents from a guy who likes it casual with a bite too.

rana dandra wrote:
How about posing the biggest challenge then? Make a hybrid list containing elements rom both the footdar and mechdar. I'm doing it myself and although I have to admit that it IS a challenge to play, it is also very funny.
The eldar is not only foot or mech in my mind but the combined force of both, granted it doesn't always work and you definetely have to think it over when playing it is way more fun than the regular dogmatic eldar view (no offense)

I like to try this as well, but it has its own problems. The biggest problem that in many situaton it leads to your forces separating, which is often a bad idea. Also it is hard for Eldar to do this since you are forced to use units' synergies to win. And if you e.g. take DA, banshees and a farseer to guide/doom you are forced to keep them together. And this works best if they are either all mechanized or all on foot.

My best experience is taking mech elements (e.g. DA and Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents) and adding non-mech elements which compensate this otherwise, e.g. Warp Spiders which will deep strike anyway. And yes, I know many people consider warp spiders inferior, but I have used them with great success in lower point games.

Interesting.

I Haven't used warp spiders in the few games I've proxied Eldar. I think there is some appeal of making a mixed eldar list, but I understand Murenius's point of not separating forces.

The approach I believe that will work with the army as we've discussed it is a conservative strategy.

By equipping the walkers with EML, the wraithlords and 4 serpents with lances, and holding the dire avengers back until late game; I'll present a tau-like long range army backed up by a solid CC nut to allow counter charges.
The Pathfinders and wraithguard will be hard to shift off of home objectives, while the primary target being presented will be my fortuned units.

6 lances and 6-8 EMLs should discourage my opponent from playing defensively, and I'll meet advances with my Fire Dragons followed by my harlequins.

The biggest problems will be deep striking enemies like a salamander drop pod army and chaos daemons, followed by necron night fighting trickery.

In KP games, I run super defensive; taking advantage of my 36" and 48" guns, while sacrificing my fire dragons to drop my opponent's long range vehicles.

In C&C I place my home objective as far forward as possible, and play a tight advancement.

Mech Guard will probably be my toughest match up, and MSU my easiest.

Valid?

junk wrote:
Valid?

Worth trying it for sure, the biggest problems I can think of are flanking genestealers if you spread out along your table edge too much and deep striking units if you huddle around the middle too much. Against horde armies the 6-8 EMLs should do some damage. I'm not sure if lances on wave serpents will work well, they're kinda expensive. Another danger is an enemy which can outshoot you over long distance. Walkers drop like flies and will not survive for long against a few STR 8 shots deliveed over long distance. It's not hard to kill 3 War Walkers and if they are gone you will miss 6 EMLs, allowing the enemy to advance quickly without taking too much damage.

Well, how effective would a squad of 5 shining spears be in this build? I know they're kind of expensive, but as heavy infantry, vehicle, and MC killers, they seem awesome.

Footdar struggles against Mech. I've heard this several times. I understand that you'd want to keep it as cheap as possible, and i fully concur. But the downside of not spending the money, is a weaker army, i guess.

But anyways, i agree with Brother Bartius on this statement:

However you play your lists is up to you junk however IMOHO your better keeping to all foot or all mech. In your list you have a good mix of both.

- If you Mech the list, you're all in for the speed of it (mechlist sacrifices a great portion of meat to gain their crazy speed!)
- If you foot it, you need the meat. WS takes up too many points! Your previous list fields 3 BL-WSes - thats over 400 points!! 10 Guardians /w EML are 100 pts - yes, thats 40 models + 4 EMLs worth of transports, that you cannot fully utilize, as the rest of your army cannot keep up. Well... You get the idea!

And as you said yourself, Mech guard is a tough one. I'd strongly recommend, that you field as much AV, as you possibly can (and by that, lose your every WS).
- FDs /w Exarch, Pike and Crack on foot is a good investment. (Still on foot!)
- Dire Avengers as shooty, not so much. If you want the DA's, then CC them up with Shimmers + Defend, and use them to tarpit, until your bad-ass units can join the DAs.
- 10 Guardians /w EML/SL and a 'Lock + conceal (NOT storms - they need WSes, and WSes uses those pts you use to buy your meat!).
- More 10-Guardians! Though only your front needs Lock + conceal. The rest will gain cover from being behind the blob. And yes, more EML/SL. Can't go wrong with more AV-options! (SL recommended, btw, as they're only bs3, and SL has more shots!)
- Rangers/Pathfinders are decent (i think??). If you succeed at pinning down a Dev squad or similar, then good for you! Not really sure about how to utilize these guys. Whats the thinking here?

SO...
Finally, you lose the WSes to free up pts. You then use those points for fielding more meat. This meat gives you a larger army and adds more AV-options aswell. The DAs current role is to get into CC and tie stuff up, take away their attacks and make sure they don't run away from your Towers and Harlies.
- Walkers should also jump in from either flank, eventually. If you SLed them, you're sure to lay down a reign of s6-shot!
And ONCE again - don't hybrid! It's just not as effective as an all-foot list. Choose either!

junk wrote:Well, how effective would a squad of 5 shining spears be in this build? I know they're kind of expensive, but as heavy infantry, vehicle, and MC killers, they seem awesome.

I'm afraid Shining Spears blow hard. They're one of my favourite units in idea and models, I have a full squad with an autarch, but they usually dissapoint on the table.

Problems include the high cost with marine-level toughness, the squad's abilities being bound up in the exarch, the low number of attacks and the one-round-only usefulness. This leads to the follwing situations:

If your opponent can shoot at them at all, even one round from one unit, he can badly weaken/cripple the squad.
In a related issue, every time the exarch is forced to take a save, which is often in a 3-5 model unit, your squad is in major danger.
When they attack, you will be getting a maximum of 11 attacks (5 men with an exarch upgrade, this costs 187 points, not counting the mandatory equipment upgrades) so it's not uncommon to just whiff horribly.
Many enemy units have the same or greater potential charge range, if anything catches you out before you can charge, kiss your expensive unit goodbye.

The real killer is their performance in combat: their complete lack of protection means that whenever you assault something with any combat ability, you need to wipe it out (leaving yourself exposed to the aforementioned shooting that will kill your fragile unit instantly) because if the combat goes on you don't want to hit and run for another full round. So 2 sets of attacks from most enemy units, even if reduced, will probably kill or cripple the shining spears. You will almost certainly lose the 2nd round of combat and have to risk fleeing, even if any of your models survive.

So basically, don't use them. Don't even buy them even if they are cool, because the models will probably be replaced within 12 months. Most people run them with an autarch (130-140 points, he adds 5 or 6 attacks and a fusion gun to the squad) but a well kitted out unit is then 377 points. Almost any other codex can get a rock-hard assault unit for so much, shining spears are a fragile, relatively weedy, horribly situational unit.

If you absolutely must, I had the most success (still not much) using them from reserves or with fortune from a farseer, to preserve them from shooting. Do not assault actual dangerous enemies, because of the aforementioned combat performance issues. Go for tough targets without good close combat attacks. This actually extends to tanks quite well. At the end of the day anything they can kill can be killed for less points, with less risk though.

I dont know, i've use shinning spears once and they died but thats because i was running them in a weird scenario and they got too far ahead of my army (i was also quite new at the time and the guy i was playing was running space marine vehicle spam :( ). But like everything in the eldar army they are good at what they do. Now I figure they fit best into a jetbike list rather than foot (and to an extent mech).

But yes i always recommend that autarch, in fact, take the shinning spears in their base size of 3 and add in the autarch as the autarch lends 6 attacks on the charge by himself. However with the advent of grey knights and their halberds that make them I6 with force weapons, shinning spears are found to be lacking in a take all comers list.

Billinator -

Copy; that makes a great deal of sense, guardians are cheap and readily available on ebay; wave serpents are not. And you're saying avoid BL? What about D-cannons and other weirdo weapon options?

I really like pathfinders; good range, great saves, great damage potential against any toughness; but at 24ppm I don't want to run more than 10; a 2+ cover save is obscene.

In my meta I do run into a lot of high AV, between Leman Russes, Predators, and Land Raiders; I have to be able to crack that armor; which is why I was thinking about EML walkers over SL walkers.

Thanks for the clear explanation.


RE: Bounty-Hunt

Thank you as well; I was hoping to get some use out of these shining spears - but that was a pretty effective argument against them. I'll stow them until the next codex comes out, and hopefully Phil Kelly will give them a bump - I suppose I could always 'counts as' a seer council.

Re: DeadlyToaster

I've been a GK player in more games than with any other army, and I agree wholeheartedly, I wouldn't be afraid of the spears. They seem well suited for taking out enemy HW squads like long fangs or devastators or whatever, and maybe cracking light transports; but considering every friggin unit the GK fields can have an I6 power weapon with an S5, they're definitely not for all comers. Thanks.


So this is what it looks like now:

Eldrad
Avatar
2x10 DA
2x10 Guardian (more?)
1x10 Pathfinder
Wraithguard (in high point games)
Harlequins
2x5 Fire Dragons (foot slogging? or still use serpents?)
2 Wraithlords
3 War Walkers

Also, side note, Right now everything is primed black... anyone have any ideas for unusual color schemes? I don't want to stick with the normal craftworld colors.

junk wrote:Billinator -



So this is what it looks like now:

Eldrad
Avatar
2x10 DA
2x10 Guardian (more?)
1x10 Pathfinder
Wraithguard (in high point games)
Harlequins
2x5 Fire Dragons (foot slogging? or still use serpents?)
2 Wraithlords
3 War Walkers

This is a fairly cookie cutter Footdar list. That is not an insult!! Cookie cutter is cookie cutter for a reason. It works. That being said, a couple of points to trim fat:

I've never had much luck with pathfinders. Low volume of fire works against the main strength of Eldar, which is high volume str 6 fire. Also, as has been stated numerous times, they die very quickly to a flamer. They're static as well which means if you ever have to shift the Avatar away from them you will begin to feel the LD 8.

WS for fire dragons is absolutely necessary. They're pretty much a one trick pony. You flat out a WS near a high armor target, drop them out the next turn and cook it. Then they get rocked by return fire. A squad of 5 BS 4 meltas makes everyone nervous.

Very much an opinion here: I don't like wraith guard. They cost like termies, have no weapon options, are terrible in CC. The one weapon they do have is short ranged, which a smart opponent will use to tar pit them with a grot squad. They do make an excellent screen for the rest of your army to get cover saves from, but the same function could be served with your harlies or guardians or SS/distract DA's...pretty much anything else for a lower points cost. I know you already paid for the models, and as I said my dislike for them is mostly opinion, so enough about that.

All that being said, the WS for fire dragons is the only game breaker there, and even then it's not impossible to field FD's without one (I believe Reecius has had some success using FD's without WS's). Looks good overall. As I said, the suggestions here are more fat trimming than major flaws.

Thanks Dash,

Well, I'm pretty sure I can dump the wraithguard on ebay for a decent return; considering I stripped off the god awful paintjob, cleaned the mold lines, and primed them black; but I think I'd rather just keep them in case I get stuck in a 2500 or something.

What's funny is, I don't actually have guardians; so I'll need to pick up some of those.

As for the pathfinders, I think that I'm going to try them out for a few games anyway, I like the range and resistance to gunfire; though if their fragility becomes an issue, I've got no problem putting them up on ebay.

So now it's just down to tweaking upgrades?

Alright so my list @ 2250

Eldrad - 210
3 Warlocks - (conceal, destruction, enhance) 115
Avatar - 155

2x10 Dire Avengers (Exarch with Twin Catapults + bladestorm) - 304
2x10 Guardians (scatter laser) - 190
1x9 Pathfinders - 216

2x5 Fire Dragons + Crack Shot Exarch w/Flamer -194
2x Wave Serpent / Scatter Lasers - 230
Harley Squad (5h/kisses + TM + DJ) - 176

2x Wraithlords +BL/EML - 310
3x Walkers + EML - 150