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If some kabalite warriors shoot at a squad and it looses more than 25% of its models and then fails its leadership test, do you get a pain token when the enemy unit reaches the end of the table?

When it reaches the end of the table it counts as destroyed right?
If the enemy unit tries to regroup in the following turn but fails and then reaches the table edge, does it count as if the kabalite warriors destroyed them?

No, becaus e the board destroyed it, not the kabalite unit.

Yes. This was clarified by the DE FAQ.

Q: If a unit with the Power from Pain special rule
destroys an enemy unit, does it gain a pain token no
matter how the unit was destroyed? For example the
resultant explosion from shooting at a vehicle wipes
out an enemy unit. (p25)
A: Yes.

Basically, if something that gives a kill point dies, the unit responsible (however indirectly) gets the token. About the only way you would NOT get a token would be if the opponent managed to kill one of his own units from a blast scatter or something.

If a unit is responsible for the death of an enemy unit, they get a pain token - unless there's more than one unit responsible, in which case decide among them randomly.

Corollax wrote:If a unit is responsible for the death of an enemy unit, they get a pain token - unless there's more than one unit responsible, in which case decide among them randomly.

I don't see how more than one unit could be responsible for destroying an enemy unit.

time wizard wrote:I don't see how more than one unit could be responsible for destroying an enemy unit.

Suppose that some wyches are surrounding an enemy transport -- perhaps they've haywired it the last round. In any case, they're completely surrounding it, the exit points are blocked, and the enemy is unable to disembark. You get the idea.

It's the Dark Eldar player's shooting phase, and a unit of Trueborn have just disembarked within 18" of the transport. They aim their blasters and fire, resulting in a wrecked transport.

The units inside must now disembark -- but the wyches ensure there's no legal position for the troops inside to be placed. The disembarking unit is ALSO destroyed, and the DE player must now roll a d2 to determine whether the wyches or kabalites get the pain token for the troops inside.

Edit: There's simpler examples, but that one is too awesome not to use. Suppose two wych units multi-assault a fearless unit. They win the assault phase and the opponent must take additional wounds as per the fearless rule. If he dies, they roll a d2 to determine what squad gets the token.

Multiple combats.

If the DE side wins and either SA, or no-retreat destroys a unit(via failed saves); then the multiple DE units have to spread the Tokens evenly/random determination, this is built into the Power from pain rule.

For falling back, there is 2 issues:

1: the Fall back rules are what destroys the unit, not the DE units

2a: If the units were considered as responsible then multiple combats could again cause multiple units to destroy the enemy unit, as could shooting losses(25% is not determined until the end of the phase, so your entire army could be vying for that 1 pain token)

2b: If the units were considered as responsible, would they still be responsible 2-3 turns later?

I repeat, for emphasis:

If a unit with the Power from Pain special rule
destroys an enemy unit, it gains a pain token no
matter how the unit was destroyed.

Whether that's killing a unit by blowing up a vehicle, making them fail a leadership check and driving them off the map, or just shooting at them with poison. The unit that forced the destruction of the unit gets the token.

Again, about the only time that you won't get a pain token is if the opponent manages to miraculously suicide his own unit, as by a miserable scatter roll. It's fairly easy to relate to kill points, actually. The only difficult part is who to attribute the token to. (And when the kill is attributed to a unit without PfP, like a vehicle or your opponent, you don't get a token).

Corollax wrote:I repeat, for emphasis:

If a unit with the Power from Pain special rule
destroys an enemy unit, it gains a pain token no
matter how the unit was destroyed.

making them fail a leadership check and driving them off the map

In that case it is not the unit destroying the enemy unit since falling back does not destroy you.

Falling back doesn't destroy you. Walking off the map certainly does, though -- and if an enemy unit forced you to do so, then they've destroyed you and earn a token. And a kill point, while they're at it.

No, it is not the enemy that destroyed you, in that case it was the fall back rules, and not the enemy.

Right -- and when the kabalites shot you, it was the shooting rules and not the enemy.

Edit: Yet another example -- an enemy attempts to deepstrike, but scatters onto a group of wyches. He rolls on the mishap table and is destroyed. That sounds an awful lot like rolling initiative tests for sweeping advance, doesn't it? Pain token either way.

I have to concur with Deathreaper here. While the FAQ ruling is very broad, you still need a unit to be the direct proximate charge of a unit's death. Deep Strike Mishaps and Falling Back off the table edge aren't being destroyed by a given unit.

This is a bit different from just giving up a kill point. Power from Pain triggers when a unit destroys a unit. A kill point is gained if a unit is destroyed or has fallen back off the table when you count up at the end of the game.

*Shrugs* What can I say. We've reached a point of disagreement.

From my perspective, it's quite clear. There was a unit. It was removed from play. In the specific examples I cited, they even use the word "destroy" or some conjugation thereof. (Disembark, page 67. Deep strike, page 95.)

In either case, the unit in question was destroyed through a direct consequence of some Dark Eldar unit with PfP. Whether it was shooting at it and forced a morale check or was present when they tried to deep strike or disembark, that unit no longer exists. If multiple units could be attributed, we even have a mechanism for deciding who gets the token (roll randomly among those responsible).

I'm not really sure why you insist on ignoring these facts, but I am sure that a TO would be more than happy to resolve it. To be honest, it's not really something that would come up often -- most token-reliant units will start with them by virtue of a Haemonculus anyway.

I insist on ignoring facts because I personally dislike you, and am trying to twist the rules to garner an unfair advantage.

-------------------

Alternate explanation, I simply read the rules differently than you. In point of fact I have a Dark Eldar army, and I would not feel comfortable or reasonable trying to claim, three turns after two of my units forced a morale check on an enemy unit, and one of my skimmers stayed near it to keep it running, and said enemy unit finally ran off the table, that one or all of these units counted as "destroying" the unit. Rules-wise, it is the Fall Back rules which finally destroyed that unit. Fluff-wise, those guys got away and my original firing units are probably off killing something else and not even paying attention, and yet somehow when the enemy unit falls back off the table edge/magical line of demarcation, across the table my unit suddenly gets psyched that those guys are "dead"? I'm not buying it, from a rules standpoint or a fluff standpoint, and would not want to try to defend that argument to an opponent.

Okay, I as away from the computer for a bit, sorry, but here we go.

@Corollax - If in your first example, a unit of Kabilite Trueborn destroys a transport, and the passengers can not disembark, for any reason, they are destroyed. So the Trueborn would gain 2 pain tokens.
Think about instead of the transport being surrounded by wyches, it's surrounded by impassable terrain (however possible) and the passengers cannot disembark. Did the terrain cause them to be destroyed? Or was it the fact that their transport was destroyed by the wtrueborn that forced them to dismebark and they couldn't? I think that the fact that the trueborn caused the transport to be destroyed would mean that if the unit being transported could not disembark and are destroyed, then the trueborn would get 2 pain tokens. It was thier action (destroying the transport) that resulted in the elimination of 2 units so they get the pain tokens.

@KK - If my unit causes the enemy to fall back, and they continue to fall back and as such are destroyed, I believe that I get a pain token for that. There are others that disagree, but this is the way I play it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:I have to concur with Deathreaper here. While the FAQ ruling is very broad, you still need a unit to be the direct proximate charge of a unit's death. Deep Strike Mishaps and Falling Back off the table edge aren't being destroyed by a given unit.

This is a bit different from just giving up a kill point. Power from Pain triggers when a unit destroys a unit. A kill point is gained if a unit is destroyed or has fallen back off the table when you count up at the end of the game.

Well, this will end up as a multi post...but...

If a unit comes in from deep strike and mishaps, then it is destroyed and there is no pain token issued. The unit had no external enemy action that caused it to be destroyed.

But if I inflict enough damage on your unit to cause it to fall back, and as a result of that your unit is destroyed, then it is my actions that caused your unit to be destroyed and in that case the pain token is mine.

@time wizard -- I was mistaken regarding the trueborn getting a token for killing the transport. The PfP rule specifies that you only get a token for destroying a non-vehicle enemy unit. I've edited my post to correct my error.

Nevertheless, I do think that you would have to roll a d2 to see whether the wyches or trueborn get the token from the contents inside the transport. It's more or less the same logic by which a unit can acquire a pain token from a deep strike mishap. (Unit is destroyed because it couldn't be placed within 1" of an enemy unit.)

@Corollax - I too was mistaken about the transport. But the real key here is the FAQ which was previously quoted.

The FAQ states that; "...If a unit with the Power from Pain special rule destroys an enemy unit, does it gain a pain token no matter how the unit was destroyed?"

This is the part that seems to be wide open to interpretation. In the case mentioned, if I cause a unit to fall back, and that subsequently means the unit is destroyed, then have I not caused the unit to be destroyed?
And the FAQ says I gain a pain token no matter how the unit is destroyed, so why wouldn't I gain a pain token? I believe I should.

In the case of a unit deep striking in, if I caused the mishap, have I caused the unit to be destroyed? I think not because there was no action taken on my part that destroyed the unit. Remember that the rule says "Whenever a Dark Eldar unit with this rule destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit..." but in the case of a deep strike mishap, it is not the enemy unit that causes the mishap and possibly the destruction of the unit, it is the fact that the unit mishapped in the first place.

As far as rolling for the unit, it is only the unit that caused the destruction of the enemy unit that is entitled to the pain token. If I cause your unit to fall back, and they are subsequently destroyed, I caused them to be destroyed, regardless of any outside influences. Being trapped, or unable to disembark may have resulted in the unit's destruction, but it was my action in the first place that caused the unit to be destroyed, and that I believe is the significant difference.

I suppose this is where we differ. I'm of the opinion that one can "cause" something by inaction as well as by action.

The wyches caused the mishap by being present where the enemy was attempting to deepstrike. The wyches caused the destruction of the enemy unit by covering their disembark zone.

You seem to insist that some kind of action (shooting, assaulting, whatever) needs to occur for a unit to cause something. I'm not convinced of that premise.

Edit: And for the record, I am perfectly content to argue that impassable terrain would cause the destruction of an enemy unit as well. It's just irrelevant, since terrain doesn't get the Power from Pain special rule.

Okay, cool so far!

But remember this part; "...If a unit with the Power from Pain special rule destroys an enemy unit,"

Now you are quite correct that if an enemy unit mishaps and is destroyed due to impassable terrain, then there would be no pain token given.

Where we disagree is whether a unit can destroy an enemy unit by inactivity.

Hmmmmmm.

Well, I can see your point as well in that in certain circumstances the existance of an enemy unit can cause a unit to have to roll on the mishap table, and that roll may cause the unit to be destroyed.
And in that instance, the unit that was responsible for the enemy unit roll on the mishap table caused the result, which was destruction, so that unit should get a pain token.

I'm just not 100% sure of it. Adn since I doubt a FAQ will be that specific, I would probably roll off for it.
Which would mean my DE unit might or might not gain the pain token, but that would be up to the luck of the dice.
But I can see your point as well.

Good argument on your part. I've gone from 100% against to 50% for!

Really, it's a very minor point -- and as I've said earlier, most units that benefit significantly from the token will already have it (as from a Haemonculus).

In a tournament, I would probably state my case and concede the argument if my opponent still disagrees. Sportsmanship is way more important than some piddly token.

Edit: I am willing to draw the line at things like plasma guns and perils of the warp, though. If a unit kills himself trying to shoot me, I'm not going to try to claim that as a token.

time wizard wrote:@KK - If my unit causes the enemy to fall back, and they continue to fall back and as such are destroyed, I believe that I get a pain token for that. There are others that disagree, but this is the way I play it.

Which unit?

Depending on the cause of fallback, you have the potential for a great many units to cause fall back.

25% in shooting; this does not always all come from 1 unit, nor is the morale test taken the moment 25% casualties has been achieved.

Multi-assault loss; all the DE units involved are part of the cause for fal-back.

What about if you caused the Fall back early in the game on an Infiltrating Squad that has no ranged weapons?

Now you have a squad that was brought below 50% first turn and fled, they have fallen back for 3 turns and have just reached their table edge. Do you remember which units fired on them to cause the fall back? Can you be sure those where the units? This is especially true of a situation when you have larger games; 2000+.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

time wizard wrote:@KK - If my unit causes the enemy to fall back, and they continue to fall back and as such are destroyed, I believe that I get a pain token for that. There are others that disagree, but this is the way I play it.

Which unit?

Depending on the cause of fallback, you have the potential for a great many units to cause fall back.

25% in shooting; this does not always all come from 1 unit, nor is the morale test taken the moment 25% casualties has been achieved.

Multi-assault loss; all the DE units involved are part of the cause for fal-back.

What about if you caused the Fall back early in the game on an Infiltrating Squad that has no ranged weapons?

Now you have a squad that was brought below 50% first turn and fled, they have fallen back for 3 turns and have just reached their table edge. Do you remember which units fired on them to cause the fall back? Can you be sure those where the units? This is especially true of a situation when you have larger games; 2000+.

Good points all. I've been mostly playing 1500 point or less games (teaching some new players).
I see your point though. Will probably re-think gaining a pain token if an enemy unit falls back off the table.
And I never took one if an enemy unit scattered on my unit, mishapped and was destroyed. That just didn't seem right.

I can see an immediate exit of table as a possibility; especially if the situation were that the fall back was due to assault results and either right at the opponents edge, or near another table edge where the only possible fallback direction forces a model into contact with the table edge.

In these cases the units in the assault are directly responsible.

Same would go for a unit falling back that gets surrounded by a power from Pain unit and thus cannot move(or cannot move their full fall-back); but that is more because the unit(s) causing the trapped! rule are directly responsible for the unit's destruction(if they were not there the unit would not be destroyed.

I agree with never on mishaps; that is neither the DE unit, nor player that caused the destruction, the opponent didn't have to attempt a DS near enough to scatter onto the DE unit, the Scatter dice did not have to move the DS'ers onto the unit(Random chance has usually a better chance for it to go in any other direction, and any other distance), and finally there is only a 1-in-3 chance hat the mishap results in destruction.

I would argue about falling back. If your warriors caused a unit of mine to fall back and run off the board that turn then yes, your Warriors had a direct hand in destroying my unit and would get their pain token. If my unit took 2-3 turns to run off the board due to failed leadership saves, that I would put into a grey area and would want the TO to give a ruling on that one.

If you're giving pain tokens for units that cause a "trapped" result, you should also be giving them for units that cause a mishap or failure to disembark. In either case, the opposing unit caused a destroyed result by acting as impassable terrain.

If you're not allowing pain tokens from those results, then that's fine -- but you should be consistent. If a unit forces a falling back result, don't award tokens to the unit that trapped them -- award it to the unit that forced the morale check, no matter how long ago that check was. If several units were responsible for that morale check, roll randomly among any PfP units that wounded the unit during that phase.

Failure to disembark does give Pain Token; explicitly in the FAQ.


Of course; again, that is by direct action of the DE player, not because the opponent took a huge gamble and lost.

Deepstrike mishap destruction is never a direct action by the DE player, it is the opponent who has to attempt the Deepstrike too close, and then Random chance that both sends the unit closer, and then causes the destroyed result.

A transport vehicle getting destroyed while completely surrounded by dark eldar units requires actions on the Dark Eldar player's part: first he has to encircle the Transport, then he has to destroy the transport; then the unit gets destroyed(ostensibly by the surrounding unit as they attempt to disembark).

The same goes for trapped!; the Dark eldar Player needs to position his unit(s) in such a way that the falling back unit cannot move it's full distace; which requires a ring at least 2.0001" around the falling back unit. It is not the easiest maneuver to pull off without impassable terrain choke-points.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Failure to disembark does give Pain Token; explicitly in the FAQ.

Sure -- but who gets the token? The units surrounding the transport, the units that destroyed the transport, or roll randomly between them?

Kommissar Kel wrote:The same goes for trapped!; the Dark eldar Player needs to position his unit(s) in such a way that the falling back unit cannot move it's full distace; which requires a ring at least 2.0001" around the falling back unit. It is not the easiest maneuver to pull off without impassable terrain choke-points.

And again, who gets that token? The unit that caused the morale check, the surrounding units acting as impassable terrain, or roll between?

I don't think making a unit fall back and off The table generates a pain token.

It's just me, but I think the "fluff" kind of applies.... Units falling back off the table edge don't "die" they escape/run away/scatter etc. for game purposes they count as destroyed since the game can't abstract scattered/running away etc.

The transport situation I would agree the trueborn get both tokens. The wyches didn't cause the destruction, the trueborn did. Much tHe same as if they shot and exploded a vehicle and that explosion wiped out a nearby unit.

I play dark eldar and this is how I play it with my group, and. It just seems the proper way to play it.

DarthSpader wrote:I don't think making a unit fall back and off The table generates a pain token.

It's just me, but I think the "fluff" kind of applies.... Units falling back off the table edge don't "die" they escape/run away/scatter etc. for game purposes they count as destroyed since the game can't abstract scattered/running away etc.

And if they're destroyed by the "Trapped!" rule? Still no token, even though all members of the unit did "die"? And again, who gets the token?

Edit: And while we're on the concept of fluff and units needing to die for pain tokens to activate, do remember that Space Marines are immune to poison. According to fluff, one of the numerous extra organs implanted into a Space Marine allows him to metabolize poisons -- they render him unconscious, but are not fatal. I hope you're not suggesting that splinter rifles won't qualify for pain tokens when used against Marines...

If they are trapped while falling back, my gut says no token, but in that case it may be random. Is there a FAQ on this?

Poison from DE shouldn't work on necrons or tyranids either.... But I believe that the brb says that such weapons are "modulated to affect the target" or something so as to avoid circumstance where weapons are useless on targets.

All I'm saying is that a unit that falls off the table edge is not perhaps killed (do they just keel over from a heart attack at the table edge?) but scattered. So it's believable they wouldn't get the token - which IMHO seems to be an automatic occurrence of them killing or wiping out a target. Waiting for a target unit to fail check, then fall back of the table edge would seem to complicate the issue.