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Basically, is activating a force weapon considered targeting the enemy? There are 2 ways it could work:

1. Force weapon, like Hammerhand, just changes the state of the weapon. It does not target anything and is not affected by Aegis/Reinforced Aegis, or the canoptek spyder's gloom prism.

2. Force weapons do target the enemy unit it successfully wounds. You can take psychic defensive counter-measures like Aegis/Reinforced Aegis, or the canoptek spyder's gloom prism.

I've always thought #2 but recently, another GK player told me it was #1.

Thanks.

It's number one, you're not doing something to your opponent, you're doing something to your attack.

I believe it would be #1. Pretty much a force weapon says if your opponent fails a save, and you make a psychic test, your weapon causes instant death. Pretty much your not targeting your opponent much like Unleashed Rage; it still does an effect against opponents models, but its not a direct attack i.e. jaws or LL

2. Page 50.

"The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent. . ."

I always had the impression, and I believe there is a lot of fluff support for this (and remember, for GW fluff absolutely CAN = rules), that the psyker is using the force weapon as vehicle to damage or perhaps suck the targets soul.

Thus, it is a psychic power targeting the opponent. (meaning you get Aegis versus it, which I'm sure is your point).

"If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death." That is the exact wording of the effect for NFW if you are dealing with GKs, if it's another marine armies Librarian then it says what Kirsanth quoted and implies that you have to target one model that was dealt an unsaved wound by the Librarian.

To sum up, NFW don't seem to target your models, Libby Force Weapons do.

OK.....I don't really quite buy into this notion that NFW are really any different than a traditional force weapon, special effects on darmons and psykers aside. Yes, I understand the wording is slightly different, but I'll tender that GW is not even aware of the difference that wording made.....they are not terribly technical writers, and in any case, it is not their intention.


We had a similar issue come up with heroic strike, specifically his Crowe against my Draigo. He argued it was a buff on the champions/crowe's attack, I was arguing it was an attack affecting me, since I was the one getting sucked into the warp or something.

Truth is there's no strcik way to tell, it's kinda both at the same time. When you punch someone's face, their face hits your hand back.

To make things weirder, NFW state that they "are Force Weapons, as described in the" main rulebook but that a unit's all activate on one roll.

So it could be read that the FIRST NFW still targets a model, the rest are simply causing ID.

Like I said, I don't think GW is/was in anyway aware of the difference in their wording. They're just not that technical.

It could be that whoever did the editing for the GK codex didn't double check what Matt Ward had written. It's probably safer to just assume that a Force Weapon is a buff to the weapon and the attack is doing the targeting.

That is certainly how I read Heroic Sacrifice as working with the order of
Brotherhood-Champion looses his last wound
Rolls for Psychic Test to activate Heroic Sacrifice power
power allows Brotherhood-Champion to make an attack
if attack hits both the Brotherhood-Champion and model hit are removed

How is that "safer"?

Safer that trying to wrack your brain figuring out which description is the "correct" one. In my group we don't use the psychic defenses that deal with targets for NFW and powers like Hammerhand, but we do allow for Psychic Hoods as their ability just requires a Psychic Test to be made in range.

CrashCanuck wrote: It's probably safer to just assume that a Force Weapon is a buff to the weapon and the attack is doing the targeting.

If you meant to say Nemesis Force Weapon, maybe.

CrashCanuck wrote:Safer that trying to wrack your brain figuring out which description is the "correct" one. In my group we don't use the psychic defenses that deal with targets for NFW and powers like Hammerhand, but we do allow for Psychic Hoods as their ability just requires a Psychic Test to be made in range.

Uh huh. It's not "safer" the model getting it's soul sucked, I'll assure you.

I'm pretty sure in the grey knight section of the INAT it says that you do get the aegis defense against NFW.

Not that INAT is official.

Guess I should have added that's its not official and when in doubt refer to the most important rule

thecapn226 wrote:Guess I should have added that's its not official and when in doubt refer to the most important rule

Or not, since citing TMIR is against the tenets of YMDC. Just saying.

Joke wasn't meant to be taken seriously, hence the smiley.