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I Have been amassing a secret daemon army recently and having spent a considerable amount on it my friend has started collecting grey knights, which was just wonderful!
So I've been thinking of ways to fight him, khorne daemons I imagine would be alright and after one game against my chaos marine army I noticed the quite high initiative of some of his unit (paladins I think).
Do you think that a 20 model unit of daemonettes would be a viable choice? I know that they would take massive casualties but the initiative 6 would at least mean hitting at the same time and 20 of them would be 80 attacks on the charge so surely something has to hit!
I'm not familiar with anything else in the grey knights army at the moment as all I caught was some cheesy paladin list that handed me my ass..
Are there perhaps any other tips anyone could offer?
Thanks!

Hoo, boy. Best of luck, this is going to be an uphill struggle for you.

Go with small units. Big units are more likely to DS mishap and will attract more fire. Daemons favour multiple small units. Bloodletters are a good choice for the bulk of your army, cutting through his troops armour will prove very useful.

Blessing of the blood god.

Rarely does a GK list contain Dark Excommunication.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, once you guys start tailoring your lists to one another, GK are going to dominate -

Preferred Enemy Daemons means that he's got the edge in CC, even though you have eternal warrior and invulnerable saves.

Warpquake is going to cause your deep striking units (all of them) to mishap once he realizes he can spread out and cover a large portion of the board.

Dark Excommunication is going to negate all of your gifts.

Your best bet is probably to spam flamers, and run a high initiative death star backed up by a fateweaver.

htj wrote:
Go with small units. Big units are more likely to DS mishap and will attract more fire. Daemons favour multiple small units.

I completely disagree with this assessment. When you run multiple small units into a hammer unit like Paladins you ARE going to lose combat. You just need to start taking wounds off them and their wounds are much harder to take than yours are. So when you do lose combat, you are going to have to take two or three times as many fearless saves if you have piled 2 or 3 units in there instead of 1 larger unit.

Also, if the extra 1" that you need when you DS 12-15 versus 5-7 models makes mishaps occur appreciably more, you are doing it wrong.

I actually like Soul Grinders against GK armies, most their anti tank is 24" range, and it forces those psycannons into the grinders which prevents a lot of storm bolter fire. I have found that most GK players do not take hammers on their squads as well, so you can tie up most of their units. Beware of Librarians with Might of Titan of course.

Overall the GK have some neat tricks against Daemons, but I think Daemons do pretty well against them. In the last 4 games I have played against GK with my Slaanesh/Tzeetch Daemons I have won all 4. I am sure a Bloodthirster or Khorne DP with a Collar and some Fleshhounds would have made it easier, but they are not THAT bad of a matchup. This (naturally) assumes that he does not just Warpquake the board on you, in which case you pretty much just lose the game...

If he's really your friend, he won't tailor his list... Consider that if he does tailor he can;
a) wipe out every last one of your gifs (even your prince's mark of chaos!) And no, you can't stop it either...

b) halberds = 'super mark of slaanesh' and make him a godly I6. (and no, daemonettes will bounce, but fiends are fun!)

c) 'quake-shunt' the entire board turn 1. (and no, if he goes first, you can't stop him, and you'll have at most about an 8"x8" square to deploy your forces...)
Warp quake alone is broken vs us... Bye-bye icone and it's got a huge area of effect! (12" from any squad member of that unit means a roughly 24" 'no-go' bubble!)

d) bring obnoxious amounts of purifyers to the table. (and no, you can't stop clensing flame which will rape most of your units!)

e) bring a draigowing. Hardest army for us to counter right now because they're GK termies with 2 wounds per model and they the 'wound allocation' shinanigans better than anyone else

f) Crowe 'tax' + 3x techmarines w/rad & psycho grenades + razorback purifyers + psyfleman dreads = no chance...


That's just a few of the nasty things he can do... Like I said, if he's really your friend and you guys are out to just have some fun, ask him to scale back a bit on the well aged cheddar. His book is nothing but a giant flip of the bird to every daemon player!

As to what you can take;
- 2+ pink horrors in 5-6 strong squads w/bolt is a must. Make sure you also grab the changeling because he's a blast!
- 1+ tzeentch herald on chariot w/bolt is a must. 5th ed is all about mech dominance... We suck at killing even av11, so taking at least 3-4 sources of anti-tank is a must-have in my book.
- 'bearers are pretty useless vs GK's. They bypass their FnP in combat, and will slam them with rending psycannons & S5 storm bolters in the shooting phase.
- bloodletters are viable against non-halberd units. But you need numbers because T4/5++ is pretty squishy... Units of 12+ are ideal, but make sure you have plenty of space open to drop them in.
- 'crushers and fiends for elites. Flamers just die to warp quake, but if he isn't using that power, then a 3 man 'suicide' squad is fun for taking out an important unit!
- screamers are actually pretty decent anti-tank, and most people tend to ignore them untill they've bow-up something rather important...
- Princes are good as well. (better than the almost useless soul grinder which can't find cover anywhere it seems, unless you have terrain that's at least 4" high!)
- Bloodthirsters w/blessing will slaughter knights!
- flesh hounds are annoying as sin to GK's because they come with blessings for that lovely 2++ save!
- Kairos is a solid crutch, read 'mandetory auto-include' for tournament daemon lists.

Overall, don't expect to walk all over him. Grey Knights make us cry and every advantage belongs to him... But, when you do win, it proves that you're the better player by far!

Thanks for the tips, I didn't think it was impossible, just an up hill struggle!
I just wish I had more time to practice

calypso2ts wrote:I completely disagree with this assessment. When you run multiple small units into a hammer unit like Paladins you ARE going to lose combat. You just need to start taking wounds off them and their wounds are much harder to take than yours are. So when you do lose combat, you are going to have to take two or three times as many fearless saves if you have piled 2 or 3 units in there instead of 1 larger unit.

I don't follow your reasoning here. Three units of five is equivalent to one unit of fifteen in an assault but will be able to weather fire that much better as they can provide cover for each other and force him to divide his fire. I don't think you're sacrificing any combat potential here. A large unit will take three times the shooting of one of the small units.

Also, if the extra 1" that you need when you DS 12-15 versus 5-7 models makes mishaps occur appreciably more, you are doing it wrong.

The difference in the foot print is about 1.5" to 2", which may not seem huge, but if you're playing with the suggested amount of terrain in the book (1/4 coverage) and, say, 1500pt armies then space is really at a premium. Those extra inches can make all the difference in my experience.

Is there any chance of Them just drop doding down/deep striking in? I mean like a whole army? I've grown used to fighting blood angels

If he is tailoring his GK list to kill your Daemons he does not have a very clear understanding of the matchup. Even if you tailor his your list and he does not it will still be in favor of him. If he tailors his list you will have a very hard chanche of winning. And by hard I mean you will not win.

Heck, if my memory serves me right his interseptors can also have warp quake resulting that with 2 groups of interseptors and a squad of strike squads combat squads you are screwed if he goes first.

In short, if he makes all his psykic tests you are not allowed to deploy at all the entier game. Not very funn after spending a lott of money and time painting, gluing and building up expectations about having fun.

That is not to take into acount the perferred enemy and all the other rules. My advice is bring the army you have not been secretly ammasing as he will have tailored his list against a daemon list.

Landing in terrain is actually not bad at all for Daemons (with a 5+ you lose 1 out of 9 models or so to dangerous terrain). A larger unit is also easier to actually get into cover, so you can get that 4+ save. Maybe you play with WAY more impassible terrain than I do...

I am unsure why you need to generate cover for one another with 5 man units, I do not think they would be effective for that.

When you actually make it into assault if you lose the assault, each individual 5 man unit needs to take fearless saves for combat resolution. Multiple combats with multiple fearless units == recipe for disaster.

What I do support is 5 - 7 man units of Bloodletters for holding objectives.

htj wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:I completely disagree with this assessment. When you run multiple small units into a hammer unit like Paladins you ARE going to lose combat. You just need to start taking wounds off them and their wounds are much harder to take than yours are. So when you do lose combat, you are going to have to take two or three times as many fearless saves if you have piled 2 or 3 units in there instead of 1 larger unit.

I don't follow your reasoning here. Three units of five is equivalent to one unit of fifteen in an assault but will be able to weather fire that much better as they can provide cover for each other and force him to divide his fire. I don't think you're sacrificing any combat potential here. A large unit will take three times the shooting of one of the small units.

Getting into combat may be easier, but if/when you lose the combat you have one of two outcomes.

1 big unit: (assuming you lose by 3) 3 fearless No Retreat saves.
3 smaller units: (assuming you lose by 3) 9 fearless No Retreat saves.

Th0a wrote:Oh he will tailor his list... I'm just hoping he's not that mean to use warpquake.
I tried to get him to help teach another friend to Play the game and his 'friendly starter' army he took was a DoA blooh angels list, hardly a friendly army, so against me he will pull no Punches.
Thanks for the tips, I didn't think it was impossible, just an up hill struggle!
I just wish I had more time to practice

Ouch... Well, the very odd time you do win then will be a huge embaressment for him!

Against tourny/net-list GK's, I find our only real counter that stands a chance is to go with our own net-list;
- Fateweaver + 2x tzeentch chariot heralds OR 'Thirster w/blessings or Skarbrand! (who ironically gives no benifit to the GK's because they already hate us)

- Mix of fiends & wound allocation crushers for elites. Perosnally I myself prefer 2x fiends + 1x 'crusher unit as the fiends have the initiative and roll a bucket of dice!

- As many 5-6 man horror squads w/bolt as possible. Also make sure to take the changeling too just to annoy him!
I have also been expermienting with a large unit of 16 'letters recently as most of the locals around me nplay GK's... If warp quake isn't being spamed, they can work wonders on any strike squads or purgation squads. They laugh at any henchmen unit other than the deathcult/crusader mix! (come here you silly monkeys!)
I really like taking a smalle squad or two of plaguebearers normally, but against GK's it seems so pointless... Too much easy access to obnoxious amounts of rending psycannons & S5 storm bolters, only to see hammerhand slap them silly in combat.

- I always take at least one 3-man squad of screamers for taking out av13/14 stuff. They can also keep pace with those annyoing stormravens too!
Flesh hounds are good fun vs knights and if there's no dark ex present, (fat chance if he's tailoring though!) then these guys can lock down even the nastiest paladin deathstar or purifyer nastiness!
Seekers hit and miss. I've had them smash face simply due to the sheer number of attacks they get, but I've had them bounce off completely... I guess if you've got the pts to spare you could give them a shot, but there's better buys.

- Heavy belongs to daemon princes! Khorne princes give you blessings fun, tzeentch gives you more access to bolts, nurgle can wound GK's on 2's w/re-rolls thanks to poisoned attacks.
Iron hide is nice to have, but against, I find there's so much easy access to S7/rending that it honestly isn't worth it... not when you consider the pts cost for the 3+ save! Hell, you can get a 'free' naked prince by not taking IH on any of 'em!
I know some daemon players insist on a soul grinder, but I think it depends solely on your local club/store and their terrain! If you can ensure there's at least a couple pieces of cover the grinder can make use of, then try one out. Sadly, the only terrain in my local store has a hight restriction of about 3"!



I know it might look like a boring list overall, spamming maybe 3 or 4 options from our book, but then, it seems like every other army is doing the same in 5th!

calypso2ts wrote:Landing in terrain is actually not bad at all for Daemons (with a 5+ you lose 1 out of 9 models or so to dangerous terrain). A larger unit is also easier to actually get into cover, so you can get that 4+ save. Maybe you play with WAY more impassible terrain than I do...

I think maybe it's just that I'm more fussy about losing models to DS Mishap. It really irks me to lose models to random effects before the enemy has even fired. I don't think that a larger unit has any particular advantage at getting into cover, it's benefits being cancelled out by it's negatives.

I am unsure why you need to generate cover for one another with 5 man units, I do not think they would be effective for that.

Simply put, if you're forced to advance across open ground (which a sensible player will try to make you do) you'll be taking a lot of fire. With a unit wrapped around a unit you'll be either forcing the wounds onto just one unit, thus denying maximum possible damage, or giving the back unit 4+ cover saves. With a kind of chevron formation you can do this with multiple units and allow them to assault as well.

I put the small Bloodletter squads on an objective far away from anything else. They go to ground like champs, and even if they get charged 2 or 3 remaining 'letters can often win combat.

Do you mean mishap, or dangerous terrain? I think it is almost required for a Daemon player to accept losing a certain number of models to failed dangerous terrain tests and DS mishaps. The key is knowing when you need to take chances and when you do not.

We must play with more terrain than you, I find that with a decent run roll on a 12-14 man unit I can usually make it into terrain without a problem. I also usually DS fairly close to the enemy, otherwise they are just going to backpedal and shoot the snot out of me.

Also, I commit to combats with my Daemons that I know I cannot win all the time. My goal is usually to tie down their small arms for a turn to let me really pile into them on the next turn. For example, a few weeks ago I put 10 seekers into 20 Guardians and 10 Wraithguard. I was pretty sure I was going to lose that combat eventually, but that is 40 less Shurken Catapult shots that went after the two units of Fiends that had just arrived and it locked them in place.

Ok, I'm going to go off the assumption that he is going to tailor hardcore. In order to do that he will likely take strike squads, interceptors, Dreadknights (they have Dark Excommunication standard), and a Libby with DE.

I have considered the DP vs Soulgrinder debate for this scenario specifically, and I think that the DPs with Fateweaver will probably still be better...but the SG is still not a bad choice. If you take DPs, keep them away from the DK...two SG charging a DK may actually work.

Skarbrand would be a good choice as well. Put him near Fateweaver for extra fun. This gives you 5 MCs so far...I would give the DPs Mark of Tzeentch for the 4++. GK have so many shots coming at you it's not funny...and they will wound you on 4s in CC.

Flamers will work wonders on interceptors/SS. I suggest aiming to deepstrike the Flamers around 18" away from SS and 24" from the Interceptors wherever possible.

If at all possible, go first. You NEED to get forces on the table.

I would take units of 8 Bloodletters and some Flesh Hounds.

Your MCs will need to take out the GK dreads as soon as possible; give your Daemon Princes wings if you can find the points (it will put them in the neighborhood of 200pts if you take MoT or MoS with Pavane).

I have tabled GK before with my non-tailored list, but that was against a Purifier list. I normally play Tzeentch/Slaanesh, and I think it does well against GK that aren't tailored to screw daemons over, but if he's tailoring against you, then I think that GK will do what Tzeentch does, only better.

Thank you very much for these tips, it's much appreciated!

No worries!

let us know if you pound those dirty GK's into the dust too! Always fun to hear tell of GK players get what's coming to them when they list tailor to us. (even funnier when they cry that blessing is brokenly OP and unfair vs them .)

To add to it, if a Daemon gets charged by just about every GK unit, the Daemon unit is dropped to I1 for that phase, so any aggressive GK army played right its imposable to win. I have a Daemon army and GK army, i would never play GK with my Daemons, also the Daemonbane SR really sucks for the Greater Daemons, also a Palidin squad can turn out 40 attacks with a banner on assault, if you do the math even the Plaguefather is gone. and with a ward staff you will prob walk away with no wounds.

on a side note the Daemon army in a OBJ game is the best adaptive army in the game, they just now have the GK to balance that.