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I'm going to be playing a tourney, so I need to create a 500 point list that will be able to take on any army. I typically put: a missile pod, burst cannon, and multi-tracker on all of my battlesuits; I want to take a battlesuit commander along with a 2-man retinue. I just don't know if it is worth 20 points for plasma rifles. I'm probably going to face some light vehicles, but I have a lot of fire warriors. I know for a fact that I'm the only tau player, and that there will be 3 Dark Eldar players, several Ork players, one or two Chaos armies, along with a couple Chapters of marines. I want to be able to handle the chaos players and marines, but I don't want to have to spend the additional points. I could just take away some fire warriors and replace burst cannons with plasma rifles, but I wasn't sure if that was a good idea.

No, they are not worth it. This is from experience as Weight of Firepower > armor-negating weaponry. How often will those Terminators or Marines be out in the open? Not often. Therefore you end up with a Str 6 gun which everything will get a 4++ from. You need lots of shots and Tau are the best, esp when it comes to range. I swear up and down about the TL-MP suits and the ones with BC/MP/Multi-tracker. TLMP are transport killers while the BC/MP combo uses the multi-tracker to spew death at whatever need be. Just my 2 cents!

I have to disagree, plasma rifles,l imo are more reliable when you are specifically hunting power/terminator armoured unit. I remember reading somewhere that statistically, the Firestorm is not too much worse when compared to the Fireknife for the cost, but I have horrible luck, so I swear by the knives.

Plasma Rifles and Missile Pods are excessively expensive when considering the Crisis Suits survivability, as that anything strength 8 (which is commonplace among Orks and Space Marines) will kill them outright.

I've had experience running a Tau gun-line and Mech army, and from my own experience, you should use them sparingly and try not to combine them with a Missile Pod or Fusion Blaster on the same suit because it swells their price on a T4 model (to around 57 points a model). My only configuration of Plasma/Missile pod is on my Commander Shas'el, but that's only because he runs around by himself.

I usually run a Crisis Suit Team with Plasma and Burst Cannons to tackle any Feel No Pain units or stubborn Monstrous Creatures. In my opinion, Burst Cannons put on wounds far better than missile pods and can really put a hurt on Marine Equivalent units.

Since you're running only 500 points, I'd just make your HQ have a plasma rifle just for insurance in case you run into any Monstrous Creatures.

Fair points, they are overcosted, we have to work with what we have left.

Bladestorm does its job by putting on wounds.
Firestorm is a good all purpose suit with 18" range.

Fireknife is the most widely used, popular and effective battlesuit configuration, for most roles.

For a reason. Plasma rifles are one of the big reasons XV8s are useful.

Plasma rifles are the reason to take xv8's if you want weight of fire on the cheap you go stealth suits. and anyone who says never combine missile pods and plasma isn't considering the main advantage of that configuration, range.

I always outfit with MP PR MT. I have never had an issue.

Aftersong wrote:Plasma rifles are the reason to take xv8's if you want weight of fire on the cheap you go stealth suits. and anyone who says never combine missile pods and plasma isn't considering the main advantage of that configuration, range.

The reason to take xv8's are the unique ability to shoot two different weapons at the same time and have the ability to move 6" in the Assault Phase using the Tau Jetpacks, effectively jumping out from behind vehicles, shooting, and jumping back behind them. Its the xv8 suit in general that makes them worthwhile.

I have considered the plasma and missile pods. But the only real effective use for Plasma Rifles is negating Feel No Pain, other than that its an expensive rapid fire weapon, that more often than not, you'll only be shooting outside of rapid fire range because you're trying to kite fast units. Adding onto the fact that its alot easier to get cover saves in 5th Edition, the 'practicality' of it gets alot weaker.

im2randomghgh wrote:Fireknife is the most widely used, popular and effective battlesuit configuration, for most roles.

For most roles? Absolutely not. Plasma Rifles are for Feel No Pain type units or in some cases small Terminator Units, that's about it. Not to mention how easy it is for units to get cover saves in 5th ed.

im2randomghgh wrote:Fireknife is the most widely used, popular and effective battlesuit configuration, for most roles.

Wrongamudo

Fireknives are a jack of all trade, master of none configuration. You CAN turn it on infantry, but Bladestorms are better. You CAN turn them on Vehicles, but Deathrains are better.

they are widely used and popular because people don't think about other suit configurations because they are too busy singing the praises of the Fireknive.


They work best as support for the other suit configurations. Dante and 6 squads of Sang Gaurd footslogging at you? Help the Bladestorms out. 6 rhinos, three exorcists, and 2 Immolators? help the Deathrains.


I stopped posting in Tau Army list threads because too many people spam Firekives like we are some kind of Marine army where you can get away with mindless spam. three squads of three fireknives and a Fireknive Shas'el with a Targetting array is 655 points, which is 1/3 of your army in a 2k point game. For 3 squads and an HQ that are rocking a Jack of all trades loadout. You could turn one squad into deathrain with Blacksun Filters (helps for transport popping in the first turn during DoW), one into bladestorms, and the Shas'el into a Centurion Shas'el and save a total of 57 points which can be added elsewhere in the army AND have a dedicated Vehicle popping squad and a Dedicated Troop popper alongside the Jack of all trade squad.


Anyways to the OP: I would put the Plasma rifle on the Commander and downgrade the Retinue to a regular 2 man crisis squad. With the points you save doing that, you could pay for the plasma rifle, still run the commander with them (since he would be an IC) and have points left over to play with.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Fireknife is the most widely used, popular and effective battlesuit configuration, for most roles.

Wrongamudo

Fireknives are a jack of all trade, master of none configuration. You CAN turn it on infantry, but Bladestorms are better. You CAN turn them on Vehicles, but Deathrains are better.

they are widely used and popular because people don't think about other suit configurations because they are too busy singing the praises of the Fireknive.


They work best as support for the other suit configurations. Dante and 6 squads of Sang Gaurd footslogging at you? Help the Bladestorms out. 6 rhinos, three exorcists, and 2 Immolators? help the Deathrains.


I stopped posting in Tau Army list threads because too many people spam Firekives like we are some kind of Marine army where you can get away with mindless spam. three squads of three fireknives and a Fireknive Shas'el with a Targetting array is 655 points, which is 1/3 of your army in a 2k point game. For 3 squads and an HQ that are rocking a Jack of all trades loadout. You could turn one squad into deathrain with Blacksun Filters (helps for transport popping in the first turn during DoW), one into bladestorms, and the Shas'el into a Centurion Shas'el and save a total of 57 points which can be added elsewhere in the army AND have a dedicated Vehicle popping squad and a Dedicated Troop popper alongside the Jack of all trade squad.


Anyways to the OP: I would put the Plasma rifle on the Commander and downgrade the Retinue to a regular 2 man crisis squad. With the points you save doing that, you could pay for the plasma rifle, still run the commander with them (since he would be an IC) and have points left over to play with.

Blade storms are not as good against infantry. 1 shot more, for -2 Str, +1AP, -30"range. Fireknife can pop termies, transports, infantry MEQs etc.

I do vary it though. I keep 1 fireknife Squad, 1 Deathrain squad (flamers for the third slot) and a pair of bladestorm (I prefer the older appelation, blinding spear) as bodyguards (with TA) for my centurion 'el, since dakka isn't very useful without High BS.

Fireknives are less efficient(but not by much) against GEQ ,MEQ, and TEQ, but cost more than Bladestorms.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360480.page

FK are great for tourneys because of the take all comers versatility of the set up. However, largely I have to agree with the poster above mine. Don't take retinue suits. Don't take them at 2k, don't take them at .5k. Unless you NEED more suits, the retinue suits are viciously overcosted for the added value of... +1WS.

At 500pts, every point counts.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Fireknives are less efficient(but not by much) against GEQ ,MEQ, and TEQ, but cost more than Bladestorms.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360480.page

I rather pay the 4 points for a 2 shots at twice the range and to only need to be at 24" for the majority of the game

I never take Burst Cannons on Crisis, If I want Burst Cannons I would get a squad of Stealth Suits

The board is only 48 inches by 72 inches. in 2/3rds of your games you will only have about 18-24 inches between you and your opponent just after deploying. It's not too hard to get in range with the Bladestorms.

No, the real difficulty is staying out of THEIR range.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:The board is only 48 inches by 72 inches. in 2/3rds of your games you will only have about 18-24 inches between you and your opponent just after deploying. It's not too hard to get in range with the Bladestorms.

You can move 12" per turn, Its not impossible to stay ~24" away

-Are Plasma Guns expensive? Yes.
-Do you need them? Yes.
-Are you going to field them?

Seriously. Dakka should stop always thinking about points costs.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:


Fireknives are less efficient(but not by much) against GEQ ,MEQ, and TEQ, but cost more than Bladestorms.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360480.page

Yeah that's all good and nice, except the missile pod has 30" more range and can ID IG characters and destroy vehicles.

Being 18" away is NOT something you want to do as tau. You just may be WAAAGH'd. If you are 18" away, you are getting to be too close.

Whereas with 48" away I can hit from table edge to table edge.

Range of Missile pod is only 36.

And we have JSJ for a reason.

18 during our shooting, 24 (or behind LOS blocking cover) during thiers.

I thought missle pods were 36? Its been a while...

Word,

Beware the scout, sniper rifles yo...

Peace

im2randomghgh wrote:Yeah that's all good and nice, except the missile pod has 30" more range and can ID IG characters and destroy vehicles.

Being 18" away is NOT something you want to do as tau. You just may be WAAAGH'd. If you are 18" away, you are getting to be too close.

Whereas with 48" away I can hit from table edge to table edge.

Missile Pods are 36" and why are you wasting them on Guard Characters when Submunition Rounds are far superior at facing Guard Infantry? That's a very poor example. Missile Pods are the Tau Autocannons; good for transports and vehicles, lacking at everything else.

If you're not close with Plasma Rifles your wasting their only strength, Rapid fire with a Strength 6 AP2 weapon. 18" Inches is the optimal choice for most suits as they can Jump Shoot Jump their rapid fire Plasma Rifles and hop back out. If you stay on the peripheral of 24" your better off just using missile pods.

48" is terrible for a Crisis Suit, he can;t hit anything.

I play Tau, and I can tell you that I throw mathhammer out the window. Their are too many variables to use it effectively. Like the other guys said, range is a big deal for the Tau. At 500 points I think Tau are almost overpowered. The Tau can bring things alot of armies simply cannot, and the cool things the other armies can bring can quickly be neutralized by Tau firepower. Absolutely bring plasma rifles. That is one of the most versitile guns in the game, especially considering how many you can bring at 500 points. You will freak some of the other armies out by bringing as many as you can. In fact, if your local rules allow it, bring a fully loaded Hammerhead. It is almost unstoppable at 500 points. I played in a 500 tourney recently and that fully loaded Hammerhead could have been the only thing I brought, and I still would have done well. (maybe not won, but done very well)

Well, I have a few questions; What are these references to fireknives/ firestorms, etc.? I'm not sure if those are apocalypse battlesuits, but I'm only playing 500 points, and regular 40k, not apocalypse. As for the range deal, the board is 4 square feet, not very large. In fact, the last game I played at the shop, I didn't even need to move (except with my fire warriors with pulse carbines). I was wondering about the success of others with it, and wondering if it was worth 20 points to be able to take out a squad of terminators that are trying to charge you, or other marines/ necrons that are out of cover. If I am faced with cover, I will simply use markerlights to reduce those saves to virtually nothing.

the Fireknives/ firestorms/ deathrain/ and bladestorm (and Centurion) are configurations of the XV8s

Fireknive: Plasma Rilfe/ Missile Pod/ Multi tracker

Firestorm: Burst Cannon/ Missile Pod/ Multi tracker

Bladestorm: Plasma rifle/ Burst Cannon/ Multi tracker

Deathrain: twin linked Missile Pod and then a choice between Flamer, Blacksun Filter or Targetting Array

Centurion: Shas'el with Cyclic Ion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Targetting Array, and Hard-wired Multi Tracker.


there are more, here's a link http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=9754

18" is NOT ideal for a crisis suit. Sure, they can dish slightly more damage. But they can also be hit by just about any weapon, and can be WAAAGH!'d, assault marine'd etc.

Doing more damage isn't necessarily worth losing your 200 point investment to retailiation.

And yeah, I confused the Missile Pod's range with another weapon.

Anyways, having at least one unit of fireknives is a must, with deathrains being the next most useful, and Blinding Spear/Bladestorm being the next.

Them being able to fill any role on the battle field is helpful.

Why isn't your other 300 points of investment supporting your 200 points?


You don't have Devilfish/Hammerheads to hide behind? No Kroot/Drone screens? No Terrain to slow them down?


10 Assault Marines will catch 3 crisis suits doing the 18 inch thing on the field outside of Gondor when the battle is just those 10 Assault Marines and just those three Crisis Suits(and even then it will be a while), but how many tables are that empty?

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Why isn't your other 1800 points of investment supporting your 200 points?


You don't have Devilfish/ Hammerheads to hide behind? No Kroot/Piranha/ Drone screens? No Terrain to slow them down?


10 Assault Marines will catch 3 crisis suits doing the 18 inch thing on the field outside of Gondor when the battle is just those 10 Assault Marines and just those three Crisis Suits(and even then it will be a while), but how many tables are that empty?

He's playing a 500 point game.

aquilaenet wrote:I play Tau, and I can tell you that I throw mathhammer out the window. Their are too many variables to use it effectively. Like the other guys said, range is a big deal for the Tau. At 500 points I think Tau are almost overpowered. The Tau can bring things alot of armies simply cannot, and the cool things the other armies can bring can quickly be neutralized by Tau firepower. Absolutely bring plasma rifles. That is one of the most versitile guns in the game, especially considering how many you can bring at 500 points. You will freak some of the other armies out by bringing as many as you can. In fact, if your local rules allow it, bring a fully loaded Hammerhead. It is almost unstoppable at 500 points. I played in a 500 tourney recently and that fully loaded Hammerhead could have been the only thing I brought, and I still would have done well. (maybe not won, but done very well)

This guy has it down. If your expecting dark elder, its ok to take a hammerhead and fire warriors with maybe a suit or two in support. your firewarriors can take there tanks down but save then for the troops, let the hammerhead blow the things to bits! You have meq at the tornament? Your best off taking a fire knife and a blade storm since you have the anti tank covered with the hammerhead. Its hard to come across units that can put a good dent against 13AV in 500 pts.