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So my two roomates and I have gotten into warmahordes. One bought Circle, and the Cryx, I myself have a khador.

We have stuck to battle box and warpack battles so we all can learn the game. I am getting my ass kicked.

I have a few questions about the Khador matchup with these two factions, especially in terms of 11 point battle box games.

1. Cryx - So Cryx likes to make my units suck, and prevent charges. What can I do about these debuffs? Honestly I find the Cryx box overwhelming to play against. My low model count against their debuffs means they get to debuff a large percentage of my force than other faction boxes.

2. Circle - I have managed to win games against circle, and they are not as frustrating as Cryx. It seems killing the warpwolf asap is my best bet for winning, which is counter intuitive considering the win condition. Anything else I shoudl know about khador vs circle?

The Khador vs. Cryx battles are really, really in favor of Cryx. They've got more bodies, and of course they have the 3 arc nodes.

Your best bet is to boost the Destroyer's gun to try and damage the bonejacks before they can close. There's nothing you can do to stop the debuffs - so you'll have to to get more agressive. Remember that you can throw models - use what you can to get anything to charge at Denny. She's a soft target once you get into combat with her.

I'd echo the above. In addition, the Cryx battlebox is actually 14 points, rather than the typical 11, so the Cryx player already has an advantage, in addition to the good matchup.

At this point in your WarmaHordes career, I'd focus less on trying to outright win every game as attempt to utilize different tactics every game. Make use of your Heavy jacks' abilities to perform throws, as infinite_array mentioned, and remember that, even though Deneghra has Stealth, and your Destroyer blasts automatically miss, they cam still scatter and do blast damage to her (boosted damage rolls can put a serious dent in her poor ARM 14).

As for Circle, don't be afraid to use Sorscha to lay the smackdown on an Argus that may get past your 'jacks. A couple of boosted attacks and a light warbeast will be dead, dead, dead. A couple boosted damage rolls on his Warpwolf by your Juggernaut will put it down for the count (no regeneration if it's dead), and you shouldn't be afreaid to receive the charge from his beasts. You won't get the charge against them, ever, due to the huge gap in speed. Use the turns before combat to try and take down an Argus with your shooting, and retaliate violently when he bounces off your insane armor.

Also, don't forget that Sorcha herself has an immense assassination threat range thanks to Windwalk and Boundless Charge.

So the major observation I have from these posts is that I have not been utilizing my destroyer well enough. I was pretty happy about its axe (critical amputation has to be one of the coolest effects in the game), I didn't realize the potential of the cannon til it was explained to me.

So is there any rule of thumb when I should be shooting with sorscha (damage boosted especially) vs using focus for other purposes?

As another piece of advice. I would point you in the direction of 15 point battles and advance to that asap, it's slightly more balanced when you've got those extra four points to deal with the cryx.
Otherwise, you could talk to the Cryx player about not using one of his Bonejacks, he gets two deathrippers that are each 4 points, he could take one of those out to balance the battlebox against yours and the circle box.


EDIT: When it c comes to targeting a warlock, go through this checklist.


1. Can you shoot at the warlock?
- If yes, why aren't you?
- If no, then do something else that will GET you to/to shoot at the warlock.

2. If yes on nr. 1, and you are not shooting, are you really, really, REALLY sure you shouldn't?
- Yes
- No

3. Really? because she DOES seem awfully squishy to me. Shoot that gal!
- No
- yes

4. Ok, you don't WANT to shoot because there's something else that could use the focus or somesuch?
- yes
- No

5,
- Then bloody charge her instead!

^^

MediumYellow wrote:
So is there any rule of thumb when I should be shooting with sorscha (damage boosted especially) vs using focus for other purposes?

Shooting with Sorscha = meh. The Handcannon may be nice when shooting alone at single-wound infantry, but you'll want to save your focus for other things. Not to mention the fact that Denny has Stealth, so you'll need to be within 5" to even hit her - and if Sorscha if ever within 5" of Denny without actually being in combat with her, then that's game over.

If you're ever able to get a charge lane open (sending your juggernaut out ahead to throw something in the way, perhaps), here's a combo to try on Sorscha (you'll need at least 4 focus):

Move, Wind Rush, Feat, Boundless Charge.

That's 6" of movement + 6" of movement, then stationary on Deneghra, then 11" of movement!

So, let me grab some dice. Thanks to Sorscha's Feat, Denny should be stationary, which means she'll be at 5 DEF - an automatic hit with Sorscha's MAT of 6.

Boosted attack roll thanks to charge = 11 + 13 (P+S of Frost Fang) = 24. 24 - 14 (Denny's Armor) = 10 damage.

Not bad for a first attack. You've managed to take off more than half of Denny's health boxes.

Now, we'll assume you kept two focus this turn. That means you can buy another attack (which will still automatically hit) and boost it. Again, another 3d6 roll (I got a 9) means that you do 8 more points of damage, which is more than enough to kill Denny.

Now, of course that's in a vacuum. Things you can do to get this going - force your opponent to waste his buff spells on your warjacks. Send them charging ahead. With a potential 23"* charge range, you should have plenty of space to stay the hell away from Deneghra, meaning she won't be able to get you with either her spells or feat. Hell, if you can manage to get the Cryx player to blow his feat because he's got 2 Khadoran warjacks coming right at him, all the better.

Just remember, you'll have to move fast. If he's a smart Cryxian general, he'll be using those bonejacks to flank around your severely outnumbered force.

*Make that effectively 25", thanks to Frost Fang's Reach characteristic.

^I'm planning on getting into Warmachine (finally, after several failed attempts with both Cygnar and Khador) and so I'm picking up the Cryx box for Christmas. This is one of the reasons why I love Warmachine/Hordes. The above is just one of a multitude of tactics/situations that'll arise during the game. And this is only with the Battleboxes! Imagine the stuff you and your friends will be doing once you start raising the points up to 20/25/35/50!

Damn, thanks for the number crunching. Okay, I only mentioned the gun because I rolled triple 6s once and killed Kaya once. Really funny.

MediumYellow wrote:Damn, thanks for the number crunching. Okay, I only mentioned the gun because I rolled triple 6s once and killed Kaya once. Really funny.

We had this happen in a game where it was a Khadoran Juggernaut vs. a Menoth heavy. And the roller was the 'bad luck guy' that each FLGS has. Man, did everyone start cheering, even the Menoth player!

If you can get a slam off against the slayer into deneghra she'll be knocked down and easy to hit. Might be worth trying to angle that?

Sorscha's threat range terminates at 19". 22" if you bring the mercenary Madylen Corbeu and get the 3" move.

Here's the order of operations, and, realize you might only get this off once against a canny opponent. ( the look on their face will be priceless )

* preferably with a full focus load of 6 *

1. Cast Wind Rush. This gives you the "bendy charge" so to speak, since you can move that 6" wherever you want.

2. Cast Boundless Charge on yourself IF YOU NEED IT, but, you rarely do.

3. Charge or Feat, depending on range. Since you can use your feat at any time its actually within the rules to charge, enter melee with your target, and then use your feat before resolving the attack.

4. You just won the game!


There are very few casters that will survive Sorscha crashing into them with 2-4 focus and all their attacks auto hitting. These are high-arm casters or casters camping a lot of focus. Luckily, Deneghra can't really afford to camp focus.

So again,

6" wind rush
9" charge, 11" if you added Boundless Charge,
2" Reach
17-19" charge with the first 6 inches not in a straight line. That's important if your opponent is trying to screen with a wall of jacks or something.

Trouble is if you're in range to charge you're probably going to be crippled by Deneghras feat. If you've not already been crippling grasped

obsidianaura wrote:Trouble is if you're in range to charge you're probably going to be crippled by Deneghras feat. If you've not already been crippling grasped

Not if you used the above method I described. I'm fairly certain Denny doesn't have a casting range or feat range of 2 feet.

Oh, and in the situation I put above, it'd be better to use the 2 focus on Sorscha to buy two attacks instead of buying one and boosting damage.

Its worth remembering that Dene has a threat range of 21 inches on her feat - but really, this situation just goes to show that the most important part of the game is keeping your caster safe. Sorscha wants to advance her jacks up while using them as cover, then erupts from behind them in a killing spree against the other caster. Dene basically wants to do the same thing, advancing behind her jacks until she can laugh a bonejack or two out on her flanks to debuff her opponent into oblivion and then blast them to death with her spells while they are crippled by her feat.

Bad positioning means that your opponent has a much easier time of doing this in battle box games. Also while Sorscha's tactics work fairly well overall, it sadly is less effective against Kreoss (who can camp more reliably than Dene and is playing a similar game of 'get close and knock you down) or Stryker (who generally will come in fast and hard when he enters your feat threat range with arcane shield on himself from the turn before, pop his feat and generally be at ARM 25-27 depending on if he ran his jacks).

RuneGrey wrote:Its worth remembering that Dene has a threat range of 21 inches on her feat

Ouch, yeah. Had forgotten that control range is 2xFocus. Blah.

And pKreoss is nasty as well - of course, there's a reason why he's one of the top tournament casters.

The other problem with Dene and her feat/grasp is that because they debuff your speed you are unable to charge. As if having a Spd2 Juggernaut wasn't bothersome enough!

Kirbinator wrote:The other problem with Dene and her feat/grasp is that because they debuff your speed you are unable to charge. As if having a Spd2 Juggernaut wasn't bothersome enough!

The goal here though is that while she fends off your Juggernaut with Crippling Grasp, you then use the Destroyer to blow up her arc nodes and then take her out with Scorcha personally. If she doesn't take out your Jugger with a spell that shuts it down, then you Boundless Charge and go hurling in to crush the Slayer / Deneghra underfoot.

Or when she feats you just back up. lol. Chances of her arc nodes and stuff chewing through that much armor/boxes in one turn is incredibly slim. Her battlebox features basically no ranged attacks worth mentioning.

MediumYellow wrote:2. Circle - I have managed to win games against circle, and they are not as frustrating as Cryx. It seems killing the warpwolf asap is my best bet for winning, which is counter intuitive considering the win condition. Anything else I shoudl know about khador vs circle?

One of the win conditions is killing all the Warbeasts (or Warjacks). Killing the Warpolf is a good tactic, carry on the good work.

George Spiggott wrote:

MediumYellow wrote:2. Circle - I have managed to win games against circle, and they are not as frustrating as Cryx. It seems killing the warpwolf asap is my best bet for winning, which is counter intuitive considering the win condition. Anything else I shoudl know about khador vs circle?

One of the win conditions is killing all the Warbeasts (or Warjacks). Killing the Warpolf is a good tactic, carry on the good work.

Only if you're actually playing the Mangled Metal/Tooth and Claw Scenario from the book. The Quick Start rules in the boxes actually say "Kill you opponent's Warcaster/Warlock to win!".

You're right. Wow, harsh win conditions in the starter rules. Still, playing attrition vs. Hordes and killing the Warbeasts is a good tactic that remains a good tactic in almost any game against Hordes.

Anyway the short of it is that winning with Cryx is a lot easier than Khador. Dene has stealth the arc nodes are defence 15 and the slayer can easily kill the khador heavy jacks.

George Spiggott wrote: Still, playing attrition vs. Hordes and killing the Warbeasts is a good tactic that remains a good tactic in almost any game against Hordes.

Isn't that the truth. It's one of the things I tell people when starting: "The biggest difference is that Warcasters get better over the course of a game, while Warlocks get worse."

obsidianaura wrote:and the slayer can easily kill the khador heavy jacks.

It can? Let's see... ideally you're tossing Parasite on whichever jack you're aiming the Slayer at, so you're at Dice -1 on claws for damage and -3 (I think?) on tusks. At MAT7 you're probably not going to miss. Fully loaded on focus, and not charging, means 5 claw strikes and the tusk strike so on average we have about 33 damage which is definitely respectable! If you had to charge for extra distance, the damage total drops just a bit since you are sacrificing a claw swing for a boosted damage roll which rounds out to about 3-4 less damage.

Again, this assumes you picked up Parasite on the target. If it's just Grasp, then that's 6 less damage overall. If it's got neither grasp nor parasite (rare I know) then the slayer will need to charge with a combo strike and then purchase a boosted claw attack to do any real damage and that certainly will not scrap the Khadoran heavy, though it will likely damage a couple of systems.

While respectable, you used 6 focus to smack around one warjack and left your Slayer out in the open for retaliation. This also assumes your opponent has let the Slayer walk freely up to the juggernaut/destroyer without any crippled systems. With three arc nodes on the table, it is all but guaranteed Denny will have a node to put a spell where she wants it. My first few shots with that Pow14 cannon would be boosted on the Slayer's head to cripple a system or two. If you manage to knock out its core or an arm it practically eliminates the Slayer's threat entirely.

Of course, it's still an extremely uphill battle on that one.

Strictly talking Battlebox here, but...

Turn one or two you drop the Parasite on the Juggy with a node.
Same time you Parasite, you hit the Destroyer with Crippling Grasp to screw its RAT.
Worst case here, you lose a bonejack. Okay, you still have 2.

Get the timing of the Slayer charge and Withering right, and likely a dead Juggy.

Meanwhile you still have 2 arc nodes that haven't been touched.
This lets you gang up on the Destroyer, possibly swapping Parasite onto it.

The Sorcha player can throw a wrench in this, especially with the feat, but a good alpha strike from Cryx makes the matchup very uphill.

But at any time, the Denny player gets just a little too close, and game over, man.

skrulnik wrote:Same time you Parasite, you hit the Destroyer with Crippling Grasp to screw its RAT.

Crippling Grasp is STR/SPD/DEF/ARM. Only her feat touches RAT (among others).

Though at RAT4 that Destroyer isn't going to be hitting an arc node reliably even after boosting, unless it's on Sorcha's feat turn.

I dont know if you would be open to this, but you could always suggest that the cryx guy loses a bone jack. He is at 14 points to your 11, so if he takes away one of the cheap ones, you guys will be on much more of an even playing field. I still dont know why the cryx box comes with more stuff that the other guys.

The battle boxes were set up in mkI and PP didn't change them in MKII.

yeah, so if that is the only reason, dude, just ask your roomate to lose one of the death rippers, which will put the points score at 10 him 11 you which is much fairer than 14 him 11 you

Deneghra's threat range with her feat is 24", because she can charge one of her own models. You may do damage to it, but you need a 10 to hit so it's not likely.

Her threat range with Crippling Grasp is a little over 23".