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As an Ork player, I find their lack of high initiative quite distressing. After losing half my boys footslogging across the table, I finally get into mele and find myself outclassed by simple guardsmen when I don't have the charge. On a more general note, I have yet to fight any unit with an initiative higher than 5, although i'm sure some exist. Most are 3 or below, especially with so many units being dropped to 1 for charges into cover and using power fists. My proposed fix to this would be to bump up most initiatives, where a farseer would be init 8 and a boy init 5. Cover assaults halve initiative instead of reducing it to one. Power fists would still be initiative 1, but could be affected by modifiers such as furious charge(this one seems hazy as it might be very exploitable under current rules).

What do you think? Is initiative too low on the whole, or just right? Do Orks deserve a boost to keep them from getting wiped in an assault where they have the charge but not the initiative?

Boosting initiative across the board wouldn't do anything to alleviate the order of attack, but rather would nerf the hell out of powers like JoTWW.

I would rather like to see a +1 Initiative for the unit that is charging to represent the momentum they have.

The common initiative is 4 btw.

Spanish Birdman wrote:I finally get into mele and find myself outclassed by simple guardsmen when I don't have the charge.

If you find it necessary to lie to strengthen your position, you have no position worth talking about.

Orks have higher WS, T, and A than guardsmen. They are better in assault no matter who charges.

Low Initiative is one of only two weaknesses (bad armour being the other) orks have, I'd hate to see them lose it.

Jack

Orks are capable or parrying and generally beating things down VERY fast, I would increase their base Initiative to 3.

Keep their initiative.

Only models in base contact with the orks may attack them.
Orks may attack an enemy unit within 3" of a model in their unit in base contact with that unit.

Yeah but an ork has four attacks on the charge with pistol and CCW. They are also a steal at 6pts each, only one point more than a guardsman and the same as a hormagaunt. You can make your unit better than fearless with mob rule and boss pole. Remembering that using the nobs LD is nine you shouldn't be running away (for lols me and a mate had it where the nob would shoot himself if he failed his own check as last man standing).

The low I is, yes, a means to allow marines to come off less badly scathed in CC and for guard to have an actual chance to bring a few down. But even then, you have so many attacks and a nob with power claw that you probably will do some damage to anything.

If your complaint is guardsmen in cover (indeed I complained about nid hoards and this being too difficult). Then just do what my mate did with his orks. Get a battlewagon, keep it open topped, put a death roller and mek boy in it; then put fifteen burna boys in it. You can storm the heavens with this unit!

Totalwar1402 wrote:Yeah but an ork has four attacks on the charge with pistol and CCW. They are also a steal at 6pts each, only one point more than a guardsman and the same as a hormagaunt. You can make your unit better than fearless with mob rule and boss pole. Remembering that using the nobs LD is nine you shouldn't be running away (for lols me and a mate had it where the nob would shoot himself if he failed his own check as last man standing).

The low I is, yes, a means to allow marines to come off less badly scathed in CC and for guard to have an actual chance to bring a few down. But even then, you have so many attacks and a nob with power claw that you probably will do some damage to anything.

If your complaint is guardsmen in cover (indeed I complained about nid hoards and this being too difficult). Then just do what my mate did with his orks. Get a battlewagon, keep it open topped, put a death roller and mek boy in it; then put fifteen burna boys in it. You can storm the heavens with this unit!

Nobz are LD7...

BlueDagger wrote:Boosting initiative across the board wouldn't do anything to alleviate the order of attack, but rather would nerf the hell out of powers like JoTWW.

And that would be a bad thing?

Lord Magnus wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Yeah but an ork has four attacks on the charge with pistol and CCW. They are also a steal at 6pts each, only one point more than a guardsman and the same as a hormagaunt. You can make your unit better than fearless with mob rule and boss pole. Remembering that using the nobs LD is nine you shouldn't be running away (for lols me and a mate had it where the nob would shoot himself if he failed his own check as last man standing).

The low I is, yes, a means to allow marines to come off less badly scathed in CC and for guard to have an actual chance to bring a few down. But even then, you have so many attacks and a nob with power claw that you probably will do some damage to anything.

If your complaint is guardsmen in cover (indeed I complained about nid hoards and this being too difficult). Then just do what my mate did with his orks. Get a battlewagon, keep it open topped, put a death roller and mek boy in it; then put fifteen burna boys in it. You can storm the heavens with this unit!

Nobz are LD7...

That cheating !

BlueDagger wrote:

I would rather like to see a +1 Initiative for the unit that is charging to represent the momentum they have.

I concur. Maybe +2 for bikes going by the same argument.

Perhaps I made this post too Ork-centric. What are your opinions about generally increasing init? I find that a huge number of attacks are at init 1, which makes it all seem pointless, and there is usually half the spectrum being ignored for everyone who isn't a soopa powerful IC.

I wouldn't change any ork stats. I would like to see them lowered to 5pts. per boy...

Dude, this whole thing is stupid, if everyones init becomes higher your still striking in the same order, think about it.

ninja13 wrote:Dude, this whole thing is stupid, if everyones init becomes higher your still striking in the same order, think about it.

I have thought about it. I'm not suggesting an increase because I like higher numbers, i'm suggesting it because it will allow greater variance between enemies. A wider range means that one unit with initiative 3 can be increased to 4, 5, or even left at three, depending on how it fares against it's competitors. The increase would be different for each unit to represent the greater spread of options for them.

Pretty much all Dark Eldar are I6 or higher.

More to the point, this would ruin balance in the game. You would be charging Boyz into SM and fighting at the same time as them, meaning that your 8 point boy is fully capable of taking down a 20 point Space Marine with ease.

Well maybe I like small numbers...

I'd prefer to see some sort of change to assaults in that the unit with the charge strikes first, then it goes in initiative order for consecutive rounds. I know I'm using orks as an example but it kind of makes sense:

Orks are supposed to hit like a steam train on the charge, but they are not very well trained, so a gakload of damage on round 1 (Strikes First) but once they are stuck in a higher I (approx 'better trained') opponent would be able to get the upper hand (and strike first rules-wise).

What currently happens is the orks charge, don't get to swing until last (excluding PFs) so against anything with a moderately good S and T, they tend to die when it comes to combat res (due to being fearless).

Combat resolution can definitely be a problem for Orks, but I think that has a lot more to do with the current state of the Fearless USR than their initiative. As many swings as Orks can put out, they'd be wiping I3 humans and elite I4 squads left and right if they could hit at the same time or faster. Fearless does need a once over, but I think most people would agree with that. Initiative is fine.

As for more variety within statlines, every stat could arguably use that, but at that point you are going to need to start rolling ten sided dice or two d6 to deal with the range of numbers, and that would require rebalancing and writing the entire game on a large scale. I don't see that happening, and I doubt it would ultimately be an improvement.

Hollowman wrote:
Combat resolution can definitely be a problem for Orks, but I think that has a lot more to do with the current state of the Fearless USR than their initiative. As many swings as Orks can put out, they'd be wiping I3 humans and elite I4 squads left and right if they could hit at the same time or faster. Fearless does need a once over, but I think most people would agree with that. Initiative is fine.

As for more variety within statlines, every stat could arguably use that, but at that point you are going to need to start rolling ten sided dice or two d6 to deal with the range of numbers, and that would require rebalancing and writing the entire game on a large scale. I don't see that happening, and I doubt it would ultimately be an improvement.

Seems to me that the only stats that infantry have which need a boost are WS and I, everything else fits across the spectrum. EX: S varies wildly in weapons and units.