Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]

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**small_gods**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
a pretty meh one at that though. Considering the contents of the bits and assuming wysiwyg

Until GW puts enough copies of all the possible loadouts on the sprues (especially in the case of CSM and Havocs) you can't really really expect someone to adhere to wysiwyg. Until then I'm just going to assume everything is using optimized loadouts regardless of what the miniature is actually holding in it's hands.

Oh i totally agree,but he seems to be competitively minded,meaning that wysiwyg might be important to him.

I just go 3rd party for the bitz I need. GW couldn't provide all possible options without charging us a fortune. If they had to give us 16 weapons for havocs and 12 plus combi weapons for champion, I dread to think what they'd charge for that box!!

**Not Online!!!**

Too much anyways, considering sm snipers.

And yeah 3rd party and kitbashing.

**mrtomski**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Decimators have bs 3+ though and are cheaper.
And both die rather easily if your opponent wants them too.

.

I do like decimators on paper (and the model) but the dakkafiend has 50pc more wounds and 1d3 extra shots (in full shoot setup) for 10 more points.

I'm actually wondering if defilers with twin las might be the way to go..

**weaver9**

After some musing...

NL Bezerkers might be a good addition. Almost all their stratagems are things beserkers want. (Fall back and charge, combat lock, bonus to hit, -1 to be shot at, +2 to charge out of cover)

The trick really just becomes getting them to the enemy in the first place... (fire raptors, or termites even...). Actuallynwith a termite drill, if you come up in cover, use the strat, and have an icon of wrath that's a 7" charge rerolling. Not too bad.

**Yoyoyo**

mrtomski wrote:
I'm actually wondering if defilers with twin las might be the way to go.

Their CC profile is so good that it's a shame to only use them as a shooting platform.

**saint_red**

Anyone else feeling triple Night Lord Heldrakes? Massive points drops in CA that they're actually looking very dangerous.

More importantly, although they can't trigger We Have Come For You they CAN use Vox Scream... which also happens to work on rules like Saviour Protocols. Want to use your 10 shield drones to protect your Riptide from my Leviathan's butcher cannons? Nope.

**grouchoben**

It certainly buffs drakes up with new value... If you were running triple drakes, they'll probably be nightlords now...

I'm more interested in warptalon outriders myself. Prey on the weak, hit and run, raptor strike; all the NL strats seem hand-picked to buff Warp Talons, and they just received a whopping 25pt haircut on a 5-man squad.

Dropping in two talons with a tip of the spear lord will make your charges very reliable: one can hopefully drop into cover and make a 5+ charge, another uses raptor strike and needs 7+ on 3d6, and the third unit needs a 7+, and you should have a CP reroll left considering the ease of the first two charge rolls.

Next turn you still have a squad of talons in reserve, and can use raptor strike or from the night again for another almost-guaranteed charge with no overwatch.

The detachment comes in at 390pts now.

**Latro_**

yea NL drakes might be awesome

I hate the models but this lil chappy might make for some awesome conversions:

Spoiler:

**Not Online!!!**

Latro_ wrote:
yea NL drakes might be awesome

I hate the models but this lil chappy might make for some awesome conversions:

Spoiler:

I find that worse then the Helldrake imo.
I'd rather have also seen Helltalons/ blades in plastic instead aswell.

On that note, did they finally drop the prices there?

**Gadzilla666**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Latro_ wrote:
yea NL drakes might be awesome

I hate the models but this lil chappy might make for some awesome conversions:

Spoiler:

I find that worse then the Helldrake imo.
I'd rather have also seen Helltalons/ blades in plastic instead aswell.

On that note, did they finally drop the prices there?

Agreed much better models. Not sure about points but I doubt it. They are fw after all and ca barely touched fw.

Plus I've decided gw has an "ugly model discount ". How else do you explain astreus and lord of skulls getting a drop and hellforged units remaining hideously expensive.

Seriously with the new drops baneblades are less than half base cost of a fellblade. I think same goes for los.

**Not Online!!!**

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Latro_ wrote:
yea NL drakes might be awesome

I hate the models but this lil chappy might make for some awesome conversions:

Spoiler:

I find that worse then the Helldrake imo.
I'd rather have also seen Helltalons/ blades in plastic instead aswell.

On that note, did they finally drop the prices there?

Agreed much better models. Not sure about points but I doubt it. They are fw after all and ca barely touched fw.

Plus I've decided gw has an "ugly model discount ". How else do you explain astreus and lord of skulls getting a drop and hellforged units remaining hideously expensive.

Seriously with the new drops baneblades are less than half base cost of a fellblade. I think same goes for los.

Play a R&H High command then, get a baneblade and 75 pts in cheap fodder HQ

Or better use your Fellblade as baneblade.

**Gadzilla666**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Latro_ wrote:
yea NL drakes might be awesome

I hate the models but this lil chappy might make for some awesome conversions:

Spoiler:

I find that worse then the Helldrake imo.
I'd rather have also seen Helltalons/ blades in plastic instead aswell.

On that note, did they finally drop the prices there?

Agreed much better models. Not sure about points but I doubt it. They are fw after all and ca barely touched fw.

Plus I've decided gw has an "ugly model discount ". How else do you explain astreus and lord of skulls getting a drop and hellforged units remaining hideously expensive.

Seriously with the new drops baneblades are less than half base cost of a fellblade. I think same goes for los.

Play a R&H High command then, get a baneblade and 75 pts in cheap fodder HQ

Or better use your Fellblade as baneblade.

You're assuming the baneblade dropped for r&h. Which unfortunately, is doubtful. See cultists.

**Not Online!!!**

The Baneblade dropped, because it literally uses the AM baneblade.

Cultists are special because they are R&H spceific cultists. they don't share a datasheet with CSM cultists. (they are also worse profile wise. because reasons)

**Snugiraffe**

weaver9 wrote:
After some musing...

NL Bezerkers might be a good addition. Almost all their stratagems are things beserkers want. (Fall back and charge, combat lock, bonus to hit, -1 to be shot at, +2 to charge out of cover)

The trick really just becomes getting them to the enemy in the first place... (fire raptors, or termites even...). Actuallynwith a termite drill, if you come up in cover, use the strat, and have an icon of wrath that's a 7" charge rerolling. Not too bad.

If I understand correctly how it's supposed to work, the +2 charge out of cover will only be half effective for footsloggers. After all, you're subtracting 2 from the charge for having to cross cover, right? Unless, of course, you've got jump packs. Then it translates as an actual bonus to your charge distance.

**Spoletta**

Only craters and forests give -2 to charge rolls. Ruins, barricades, sector mechanicus and everything else is fine.

**Snugiraffe**

Spoletta wrote:
Only craters and forests give -2 to charge rolls. Ruins, barricades, sector mechanicus and everything else is fine.

Well, bugger me rotten! We've been playing it wrong all the time, then.

That means that NL zerkers might even be content with a Rhino. If you can disembark them into ruins, there's your +2" right there. And zerkers still have nice small bases, meaning they could conceivably reach enemies on higher levels of said ruin. And you don't need to worry about the 9" deep strike restriction, either.

**Gadzilla666**

Not Online!!! wrote:

The Baneblade dropped, because it literally uses the AM baneblade.

Cultists are special because they are R&H spceific cultists. they don't share a datasheet with CSM cultists. (they are also worse profile wise. because reasons)

Could work then.

Other than strategems, psychic powers, and prayers wouldn't work on it.

Also no quad lasscannons, accelerator cannon, t9, or 2+ save.

Other than that.

**saint_red**

grouchoben wrote:
It certainly buffs drakes up with new value... If you were running triple drakes, they'll probably be nightlords now...

I'm more interested in warptalon outriders myself. Prey on the weak, hit and run, raptor strike; all the NL strats seem hand-picked to buff Warp Talons, and they just received a whopping 25pt haircut on a 5-man squad.

Dropping in two talons with a tip of the spear lord will make your charges very reliable: one can hopefully drop into cover and make a 5+ charge, another uses raptor strike and needs 7+ on 3d6, and the third unit needs a 7+, and you should have a CP reroll left considering the ease of the first two charge rolls.

Next turn you still have a squad of talons in reserve, and can use raptor strike or from the night again for another almost-guaranteed charge with no overwatch.

The detachment comes in at 390pts now.

I think this approach will work well with Night Lords too. They are still super fragile but as you say they'll be able to get into combat and have enough shenanigans that they can clog the board and avoid some shots. Triple Heldrakes has less moving pieces and is a bit more 'plug and play' but doesn't quite offer the same thing. On the plus side it adds a serious amount of T1 threat to be dealt with.

I know there is a lot of negativity online about CSM (especially reddit, dear God) but I'm honestly pretty pumped. We have so many new things to test out and play with right now.

**Latro_**

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

The Baneblade dropped, because it literally uses the AM baneblade.

Cultists are special because they are R&H spceific cultists. they don't share a datasheet with CSM cultists. (they are also worse profile wise. because reasons)

Could work then.

Other than strategems, psychic powers, and prayers wouldn't work on it.

Also no quad lasscannons, accelerator cannon, t9, or 2+ save.

Other than that.

or bs3, which with prescience...
I know its expensive but post i, made a few pages back with the new IW strats the FB could be semi viable. Esp since cultists dropped you can screen it like a mofo

**Gadzilla666**

Latro_ wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

The Baneblade dropped, because it literally uses the AM baneblade.

Cultists are special because they are R&H spceific cultists. they don't share a datasheet with CSM cultists. (they are also worse profile wise. because reasons)

Could work then.

Other than strategems, psychic powers, and prayers wouldn't work on it.

Also no quad lasscannons, accelerator cannon, t9, or 2+ save.

Other than that.

or bs3, which with prescience...
I know its expensive but post i, made a few pages back with the new IW strats the FB could be semi viable. Esp since cultists dropped you can screen it like a mofo

The issue isn't whether it's viable it's that it and the other hellforged low have been arbitrarily overcosted. A fellblade shouldn't cost two baneblades.

And if you think a iw fellblade is viable wait till you see an ih astreus with 100 extra points to work with.

**ph34r**

With the new points, I'm thinking, and I hope I'm getting these all right:

Iron Warriors 2000p

+Battalion: Devastation Battery+
Jump Lord, chainsword, relic power-axe, warlord: Siege Master - 98p
Terminator Lord, relic combi-bolter, lightning claw, lieutenant: Armour Bane - 105p
5 CSM, bolters, combi-bolter, chaincannon - 77p
5 CSM, bolters, combi-bolter, chaincannon - 77p
10 Cultists, heavy stubber - 42p
5 Havocs, 4 chaincannons - 150p
5 Havocs, 4 lascannons - 170p
3 Obliterators - 285p

+Battalion+
Lord Discordant - 160p
Daemon Prince, wings, talons, fleshmetal exoskeleton - 165p
Dreadnought, 2x CCW, 2x combi-bolter - 94p
Dreadnought, TLLC, missile launcher - 120p
5 CSM, bolters, combi-bolter 57p
5 CSM, bolters, combi-bolter 57p
10 Cultists, heavy stubber - 42p
Forgefiend, autocannons, plasma - 150p
5 Havocs, 4 chaincannons - 150p

1999p

Starts with 13 CP and immediately spends 3 on relics, 2 on Devastation Battery and the lieutenant, so 8cp to spend on VotLW, the obliterator d3 rerolls, the damage dice rerolls, and whatever else needs to happen.

Am I missing any obvious must-haves?

**Not Online!!!**

So you have a Blender Lord.
A blender DP.

ALOT of chaincannons.

2 Dreads, one of which is for melee

one squad of lascannons.
2 of Reapers.

It's a bit thin on screens imo.
And AT is a bit too reliant imo on CQC.
But with Votwl i can imagine that the reapers can do some aswell.

**grouchoben**

I like the list except 310pts spent on dreads, that seems a bit indulgent! And a single disco lord with no help is alost pointless, unless I'm missing some new Iron Warriors shtick? It'll be cratered on T1. A rhino wouldn't go amiss too, to protect some of your precious havocs from indirect fire spam T1 ...

**Not Online!!!**

grouchoben wrote:
I like the list except 310pts spent on dreads, that seems a bit indulgent! And a single disco lord with no help is alost pointless, unless I'm missing some new Iron Warriors shtick? It'll be cratered on T1. A rhino wouldn't go amiss too, to protect some of your precious havocs from indirect fire spam T1 ...

Imo the Hellbrutes aren't "that bad", they just sadly are not tough enough to remain on the bard. Also a melee dread is just a bit off a waste imo.

Another thing is, why not bring a sorcerer?

As for the Lord discordants yep they are very much a Pack animal, sadly, thanks to GW failing at design. (if only a warpsmith could have had their Aura, maybee we wouldn't need another point cut for dakka Daemonengines....)

**Latro_**

just been doing some weird maths.

Unit of 3 IW obilts with:
MoP re-roll 1's to hit and wound
WL trait to do extra hits on a 6
and re-roll S/AP/DMG (only re-rolling a 1) strat on

will do on average 17 wounds to a knight with a 5++
or 13 to a knight with 4++

I think! i did it with a computy program running it 200,000 times, although this is a flat average the results vary wildly! lowest being 0 and higest being about 63

couple of mini 200 run cycles

Spoiler:

**small_gods**

Latro_ wrote:
just been doing some weird maths.

Unit of 3 IW obilts with:
MoP re-roll 1's to hit and wound
WL trait to do extra hits on a 6
and re-roll S/AP/DMG (only re-rolling a 1) strat on

will do on average 17 wounds to a knight with a 5++
or 13 to a knight with 4++

I think! i did it with a computy program running it 200,000 times, although this is a flat average the results vary wildly! lowest being 0 and higest being about 63

couple of mini 200 run cycles

Spoiler:

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That's interesting although it'd be good to see what they do with all the strats activated, tecno virus exploding 6s, tank hunter, reroll ones from lord, veterans of the long war and endless Cacophony.

I make it an adverage 38 wounds vs a 4++ knight but I'm sure running the numbers would help. That's 5cp and a warlord in support though but a relatively cheap 344 points to kill 1 to 2 knights.

**Latro_**

well re-roll 1's you dont need as included is the MoP running the power that does that.

vs vanilla knight

All the above with VOTLW = 22
VOTLW + TH + all the above = 33 (loose the re-roll 1 but gain re-roll all)

So to be fair you'd get the same result with a flat lord (re-roll 1 to hit) and with exploding 6's WL, Tank Hunter, VOTLW and re-rolling the dice for flesh metal

Not bad for a 285pt unit a cheap lord and 3cp. Its only an average though... can vary wildly.
Should be able to DS in and reliably hope to give a knight a serious pummeling.

**tneva82**

Latro_ wrote:
just been doing some weird maths.

Unit of 3 IW obilts with:
MoP re-roll 1's to hit and wound
WL trait to do extra hits on a 6
and re-roll S/AP/DMG (only re-rolling a 1) strat on

will do on average 17 wounds to a knight with a 5++
or 13 to a knight with 4++

I think! i did it with a computy program running it 200,000 times, although this is a flat average the results vary wildly! lowest being 0 and higest being about 63

That's why for my math crunching I removed the overkill to check actual average damage with overkill factored away. Did you do that as well? If not that 17 is too high.

**small_gods**

Latro_ wrote:
well re-roll 1's you dont need as included is the MoP running the power that does that.

vs vanilla knight

All the above with VOTLW = 22
VOTLW + TH + all the above = 33 (loose the re-roll 1 but gain re-roll all)

So to be fair you'd get the same result with a flat lord (re-roll 1 to hit) and with exploding 6's WL, Tank Hunter, VOTLW and re-rolling the dice for flesh metal

Not bad for a 285pt unit a cheap lord and 3cp. Its only an average though... can vary wildly.
Should be able to DS in and reliably hope to give a knight a serious pummeling.

Yeah they do look potent. I can't decide whether I need to run a second unit of oblits as IW or not. I currently use AL devestation battery which is plenty potent but the IW stuff just adds to that.

Rampant Techno Virus also helps wildly. Instead of an adverage str 8 ap 2 dmg 2 with standard deviation of 0.82, you get 8.3 str, 2.3 ap and 2.3 dmg with a standard deviation of 0.47.

That's almost reliable!!

**Not Online!!!**

So, what do people think about the dropped forgefiends and venomcrawlers?

I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.