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Test game for CSM and Necrons.

Chaos Space Marines

HQ

Daemon Prince - wings, mark of tzeentch & bolt of change
Daemon Prince - wings, mark of tzeentch & bolt of change


Elite

Chaos Dreadnought - multi melta & missile launcher
Chaos Dreadnought - multi melta & missile launcher

Chaos Dreadnought - multi melta & missile launcher


Troops

5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns - Rhino w/ combi plasma
5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns - Rhino w/ combi plasma
5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns - Rhino w/ combi plasma
5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x flamers - Rhino w/ combi plasma
5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x flamers - Rhino w/ combi plasma

Heavy Support

5 x Chaos Havocs - 4 x autocannons
5 x Chaos Havocs - 4 x missile launchers
5 x Chaos Havocs - 4 x missile launchers


Necrons - 2,000 points

HQ

Overlord w/ Catacomb Command Barge - warscythe
Royal Court - 3 x Crypteks - solar pulse

Elite

Triarch Stalker
Triarch Stalker

Troops

9 x Necron Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
9 x Necron Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
9 x Necron Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
10 x Immortals - tesla carbines

Fast Attack

8 x Canoptek Scarabs
8 x Canoptek Scarabs

Heavy Support

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
2 x Canoptek Spyers - fabricator claw array


Game: Pitched Battle + Annihilation

Deployment

Necrons win the roll off and deploy first. They deploy in the centre between a small ruin. At the front is a line of Ghost Arks long ways on. On the left side of the ruin, behind the Arks, is the two Annihilation Barges and unit of Immortals. In the centre behind a Ark is the Command Barge and both Stalkers inside the ruin. Rightflank is the two Spyder and Scarab units.

CSM deploy the autocannon Havocs in a tower ruin on the right flank and then both missile laucher units in a large ruin near the left flank. On the left flank the Dreadnoughts deploy in front, then the three melta carrying Rhinos behind them and then the other two - Princes deploy in the gap between the Rhinos.

Turn 1

CSM attempt to seize the intitiative, but fail.

Necrons move the Arks 6" while the Command Barge moves flat out and hides behind a big shrine ruin to block LOS. Annihilation Barges move 12" to get into range while the Immortals, Stalkers, Scarabs and Spyders move and run forward.

Shooting; Crypteks fire and one Dreadnought is immobilised another is wrecked.

CSM turn; - Necrons use solar pulse. Operational Dreadnought goes crazy and runs off towards the Necrons lines, putting it into melta range no doubt - crazy dutch bastard. Rhinos flank left, going around the Dreadnought wreck and immobilised one. Princes fly and run foward using ruins to block LOS.

Shooting; autocannons and missiles attempt to fire at the Spyders in order to stop them spawning more Scarabs, but all units cannot see and miss. The Dreadnought which can shoot is out of range of a Ghost Ark. All Rhinos pop smoke.

Kill points - Chaos Space Marines: 0 Necrons: 1

Turn 2

Spyders spawn Scarabs, though one takes a wound as rolls a 1. Command Barge moves flat out and sweep attacks the crazy Dreadnought; it is wrecked. Necron forces move up towards CSM lines.

Shooting; one Stalker is out of range on a Rhino, the other is in range and fires hoping to twin-link the Immortals' tesla carbines, but it isn't needed and the Rhino is wrecked, spilling out a melta Plague Marine unit. One Annihilation Barges blasts a Prince with everything it has got and knocks off three wounds, the other Barge attempts to do the same along with a gauss array, but the Prince survives.

CSM turn; both Princes fly towards Necron lines. Rhinos move 12" to get meltas and flamers into range - one moves over the wreck of the Rhino. Melta Plague Marines move through terrain to get the Command Barge.

Autocannons gib two Scarabs while missile launchers rain down on the Spyders and kill one and wound the other twice. Plague Marines fire meltas at the Command Barge and rolls snake eyes. Both Princes cast bolt of change, the wounded Prince gets revenge and wrecks a the Annihilation Barge which took all the wounds while the other stuns a Ghost Ark - living metal saves.

In assault the Daemon Prince charges the Ghost Ark and scores stunned and weapon destroyed.

Kill points - Chaos Space Marines: 1 Necrons: 3

Turn 3

Single Spyder spawns a Scarab. Two Ghost Arks move up the centre of the board with Scarab support, while the other Scarab unit moves through a ruin to circle the Daemon Prince. Immortals and Triarch Stalkers move up. Overlord sweep attacks a flamer Plague Marine Rhino and wrecks it, Overlord only moves 12" in the Barge and bails out ready to assault something.

Shooting; the last Annihilation Barge kills the single wounded Daemon Prince. Triarch Stalker blasts a Rhino and scores weapon destroyed, Immortals fire at the same target and shake it. Other Triarch Stalkers blasts a Rhino but scores no damage. One of the Ghost Arks fires array at autocannon Havocs, but all are ok.

In assault the Scarabs flanking up the centre are just out of assault range of a Rhino carrying a unit of flamer Plague Marines. The Overlord charges and wrecks the immobilised Dreadnought. Other Scarab unit assaults the Daemon Prince through terrain, Scarabs get battered in combat, but the Prince has taken a wound so no armour save - only two Scarab bases left.

In the CSM turn, two units of melta Plague Marines bail out their Rhinos to engage the Immortals while the other unit already on foot moves through the wreck of their Rhino (one trips and dies) to chase the Command Barge. Last unit of flamer Plague Marines bail out of their Rhino and move to BBQ some Scarabs.

Shooting; combi plasma fires from two Rhinos at the Overlord and both fail to wound! Flamer Plague Marines and frags rip through the Scarabs, only one base remains and with a single wound. Other missile launcher Havoc unit explodes one of the Ghost Arks coming up the centre. Autocannons bounce off the last Spyder. Meltas and bolt pistols open fire on the Immortals putting four of them down - 3 Immortals get back up from the Plague Marines shooting. Meltas fire at the Command Barge, only one hits and fails to pen!

In assault, both Plague Marine units charge the Immortals - fight rages on after Immortals pass leadership test. Daemon Prince gibs the two Scarabs - Prince is now exposed next turn with only a 4+ invulnerable to keep him safe.

Kill points - Chaos Space Marines: 3 Necrons: 6

Turn 4

The last Ark in the centre moves to the autocannon Havocs so it and the Warriors inside can gauss them down. Warriors on foot move into rapid fire of the flamer Plague Marines while the sinlge Scarab charges forward. Overlord gets back in his Barge and sweeps the unit of melta Plague Marines, kills one of them.

Shooting; Triarch Stalkers fires at a Rhino and scores immobilised, gauss fires after but does nothing. Armour-less Daemon Prince eats gauss flayers and eldritch lance and goes down. Annihilation Barge blasts the crap out of the shaken Rhino which has relocated to get cover, it passes one glance and one pen, but the Barge leaves it immobilised and stunned. Warriors on foot blast the flamer Plague Marines, only kill one.

In assault, the Spyder charges to assist the Immortals, but it goes wrong. The Spyder is destroyed via sweeping advance and the Immortals fall back. Single Scarab gets battered by the Plague Marines.

CSM turn; the two melta Plague Marines move to confront the Triarch Stalkers while the flamer Plague Mairne unit moves to engage the Warriors. Other flamer Plague Marine unit moves to support the melta unit by the Command Barge.

Shooting; meltas fire at the Triarch Stalkers, one Stalkers takes a penetrating hit and is weapon destroyed while the other takes no damage. Meltas fire at the Command Barge and it explodes, one Plague Marine from the melta unit eats shrapnel, the Overlord is fine though and passes pinning. Plague Marines blast into the Warriors with flamers and bolt pistols - four down, but three get back up. Missile launchers blast the last Ghost Ark coming up the centre and it is wrecked - autocannons rain down knocking Warriors down - three get back up, though Warriors fail morale test and fall back before hand.

In assault, the two Plague Marine units charge the Overlord and score a single wound - Overlord cuts into the smaller unit and draws in combat. Plague Marines charge the shield-less Stalker but cannot hit with krak grenades. Plague Marines charge the Warriors, Warriors lose combat, but stick around.

Kill points - Chaos Space Marines: 6 Necrons: 7

Turn 5

Warriors ouf of the downed Ark move into rapid fire range of the autocannon Havocs. The Stalker not in combat moves to get into melta range of the immobilised Rhino. Immortals fall back off the table as cannot regroup as the Plague Marines are within 6".

Shooting; Stalker pops the immobilised Rhino while the Annihilation Barge wrecks the other Rhino that is previously fired at - all Rhinos are now gone. Unit of Plague Marines by the Stalker get gunned by gauss flayers and eldritch lance from Warriors and Ghost Ark. Havocs eat gauss, only two left and they pass morale.

In assault the Overlord kills the unit of two melta Plague Marines and takes no damage, the flamer unit the Overlord is engaged with takes a wound thanks to no retreat saves. Warriors and Plague Marines battle it out, this time it is a draw.

Chaos Space Marines have nothing to move.

Shooting; autocannons and frags blast the Warriors, though one units round of frags totally miss!

In assault the Overlord kills two more flamer Plague Marines - one left! Stalker and Plague Marines remain in a deadlock as does the Plague Marines and Warriors.

Kill points - Chaos Space Marines: 8 Necrons: 12

Game ends, Necrons win 12 kill points to 8 for CSM.

Summary

Considering the CSM was against a brand spanking new codex, they didn't do too well. They had some bad luck with shots missing and been out of range. Some really bad luck with a entire units firing of frags completely missing!

List wise, I like the Plague Marines, but that extra Rhino and extra monstrous creature would be nice. So I am going to pop the CSM back in and use the points to gain another CSM unit and also a Greater Daemon. I'll probably drop the combi plasma as well and perhaps throw on icon of khorne on the CSM to make them a little more affective in close combat, seems they are close range troops.

Necrons did well this game. The vehicles managed to asborb fire power well and the Necrons did will with R.P rolls. They had some really good rolls with R.P.

Stalkers did well taking out nearly all the vehicles between them, I know this isn't a lot and the Stalkers in this case have only made half their points back, but they add nice anti tank and target saturation.

Overlord was a menace. He took out two Dreadnoughts, a Rhino and a unit of Plague Marines - that's 370 points worth of damage.

Scarabs didn't do too well this turn, was just out of assault range of a tank and the Prince battered the others, but this was expected and they reduced the Prince down to no armour save.

I think the Necron list I am going to keep as is. The CSM lists needs some tweaking and test games.

Not really digging that chaos list... but well played none the less

Not digging as in it is nasty or not digging as in it isn't very good?

Lol Mercer- Not digging is US slang for not liking :/

I thought as much.

mercer wrote:Not digging as in it is nasty or not digging as in it isn't very good?

Not very good; Lash Princes are far better and more versatile than MoT princes. Especially because you have sooooo much AT already. As well, you can hide behind your rhinos to get the 4+ while lashing opponents longfangs, etc. into the open.

I like your dread loadouts, though personally I'd run ML/Fist, but adds good ranged punch. your troop/rhino loadouts is awesome, wouldn't change a thing.

As for Havocs.... I'm not a fan. They're far more expensive than Dev squads/Longfangs. Your list is honestly lacking punching power. I'd almost recommend spamming Defilers over Havocs; at least then you can fleet up and crush things, or toss down some battlecannon doom, and they're relatively cheap.

How are lash Princes better against a mech army? What happens when my Prince is out in the open? Honestly, MoT or MoN is where it is at the Princes. Lashs belong on Sorcerers, and aren't good thanks to mech heavy 5th edition.

You're right about Havocs, they are more expensive than Devastators, by 5 points. Every heavy weapons Space Marine unit is more expensive than Long Fangs, Blood Angels are the closest and they are 130 points still.

Defilers, seriously? You say the list lacks punching power, yet you suggest ditching the 8 missile launchers and 4 autocannons for Defilers - which are meh. Defilers are no good at shooting and not good at combat, and they cannot do both at the same time. They are pants.

They are pants.

I agree with your take of defilers. I'm assuming this means they are rubbish.

I actually lol'd when I read that. Who says something like that!?

Yes, they are rubbish. I used to run Defilers before. Not very good at shooting and not very good at close combat - cannot even beat Guardsmen in combat and that is saying something. With a Defiler if you want to get into combat then no shooting, if you want to shoot then no combat - what you're paying for you never get the full benefit out of.

Pants - the term was used about 11 years ago when I was at school.

mercer wrote:How are lash Princes better against a mech army? What happens when my Prince is out in the open? Honestly, MoT or MoN is where it is at the Princes. Lashs belong on Sorcerers, and aren't good thanks to mech heavy 5th edition.

You're right about Havocs, they are more expensive than Devastators, by 5 points. Every heavy weapons Space Marine unit is more expensive than Long Fangs, Blood Angels are the closest and they are 130 points still.

Defilers, seriously? You say the list lacks punching power, yet you suggest ditching the 8 missile launchers and 4 autocannons for Defilers - which are meh. Defilers are no good at shooting and not good at combat, and they cannot do both at the same time. They are pants.

I agree, mostly, with some of whats said.

Lash princes are AWESOME played correctly. Yes, they can't do anything to mech; so what happens when your opponents demechanized? Your list tries to do the things that Blood Angels, Wolves, and other armies do better. Yes, you can't just willy nilly throw a lash prince out there and hope he lives, but his chances of survival are equal to a MoT prince if you keep them near your mechwall. I love Mon princes, I was a huge proponent when running chaos myself, but they die just as easily as any other prince. Honestly, what SMART opponents not going to try and use his heavy weapons to gun down the only CC threat in an army? At least lash princes have a higher chance of seeing CC. Either way your talking a 4+ invun for MoT or 4+ cover for MoN or MoS. MoS is better against things like Wolves, jump angels, a lot of necron lists I see running around, and such. MoT is good against mech for the most part. MoN is just good against infantry, thats about it. Pretty much a bullet magnet.

I'm probably wrong about Defilers, when I played chaos (early 2010) triple Defilers was pretty awesome. That was before a lot of Mech guard was in my area, but BC's are still pretty awesome. Yes, they are inaccurate, but so are LR's and people still use them. The only problem with defilers is finding cover (and AV 12 instead of 13 like grinders... meh). I'm still a proponent of at least ONE sitting in backfield in the corner lobbing cannons and protecting things like Havocs. Perhaps 1 defiler and 8 missile havocs? I'd still go for oblits (utility), but hey, you play how you wanna play.

Yay Chaos Marines! Hey mercer how do you think you would have done if you had one less PM squad and Fists in all the rest of them? A little finishing power in assault may have been all you needed. Another possible way to rework the list would be to lose the princes in favor of beefier squads with fists and then use a cheap lord as hq and stick him in a rhino. That way you could still take the surprise Greater for those jobs that require a monster. I like the list as is, I just think it needs to be able to finish assaults.

Necron list seems solid, a bad turn of rolling on your Arks could really hamper your momentum but you have some great threats to keep armies busy while the unkillable scorers move into position.

Just to expound on the Chaos list, basically it looks like an attempted "translation" of one of the Imperial MSU-shooty lists. While it is an alright list, it doesn't really play to the strength of Chaos synergy.

There's a reason why dual-lash is the most competitive build in the chaos codex, even against the plethora of competitive-mech builds. But it's ok not to run dual-lash. Not eveyone will like doing so.

Yeah I have to agree with others here, as CSM are my babies (about 25K worth including APOC) I can honestly say that when I opened the post and just read the CSM list I said "well this is already over, necrons win". CSM is not a great codex in the current meta and this is not even a very optimized list for said codex. Nothing against you, I just think that an optimized CSM list could have made the game much closer if not able to eek out a win. A good read none the less, thanks for taking the time to post it.

I'm curious -was this a solo Batrep?

Defilers have a place in certain lists....in a four heavy list I run one because it either attracts fire away from my landraider/or even better away from transport rhinos or it walks across the board firing a battle cannon until in combat...and I completely disagree that a defiler is bad in CC....6 str10 attacks on the charge is nothing to sneeze at... you just to control what combats it gets into and not aim it at something you know it will lose too...at a min its a tar pit for a round or two

I agree. Defilers are good, especially in lower point games (1.5K or less). In higher point games, most competitive chaos players use oblits with dual-lash.

I hate chaos dreads.... look great but are so unreliable. Bringing 3 just guaranties that they go nuts. Lucky they didn't melta their own armor. Nurgle princes with warp time are better. I love auto canon havocs but they are over cost. Generally I find vindicators and oblits are the best option which is no doubt why every one plays them.

You said the spyder died via sweeping advance? forgive me i dont have my dex nor rulebook on me but aren't the spyders MCs? And if so cant they not be swept?

Defiler37 wrote:You said the spyder died via sweeping advance? forgive me i dont have my dex nor rulebook on me but aren't the spyders MCs? And if so cant they not be swept?

It's not the fact that they are MC's that they can't be swept. It's the fact that they are fearless.

Most mcs are fearless, which is why they cannot be swept. The fact alone that they are monstrous has nothing to do with it.

************

Elite

Chaos Dreadnought - multi melta & missile launcher
Chaos Dreadnought - multi melta & missile launcher
Chaos Dreadnought - multi melta & missile launcher

*************

This would worry the crap out of me!!

3 Chaos dreads? I cant remember the last time I've seen one

Still they did put up a bit of a fight. Chaos could really use a new codex

Zid wrote:

I agree, mostly, with some of whats said.

Lash princes are AWESOME played correctly. Yes, they can't do anything to mech; so what happens when your opponents demechanized? Your list tries to do the things that Blood Angels, Wolves, and other armies do better. Yes, you can't just willy nilly throw a lash prince out there and hope he lives, but his chances of survival are equal to a MoT prince if you keep them near your mechwall. I love Mon princes, I was a huge proponent when running chaos myself, but they die just as easily as any other prince. Honestly, what SMART opponents not going to try and use his heavy weapons to gun down the only CC threat in an army? At least lash princes have a higher chance of seeing CC. Either way your talking a 4+ invun for MoT or 4+ cover for MoN or MoS. MoS is better against things like Wolves, jump angels, a lot of necron lists I see running around, and such. MoT is good against mech for the most part. MoN is just good against infantry, thats about it. Pretty much a bullet magnet.

I'm probably wrong about Defilers, when I played chaos (early 2010) triple Defilers was pretty awesome. That was before a lot of Mech guard was in my area, but BC's are still pretty awesome. Yes, they are inaccurate, but so are LR's and people still use them. The only problem with defilers is finding cover (and AV 12 instead of 13 like grinders... meh). I'm still a proponent of at least ONE sitting in backfield in the corner lobbing cannons and protecting things like Havocs. Perhaps 1 defiler and 8 missile havocs? I'd still go for oblits (utility), but hey, you play how you wanna play.

That's why I am taking MoT, because of mech. I would rather have something which can crack open a tank and then assault with warptime than something which I have to wait until I can lash stuff and hope for a good roll to be in assault range. Also, from a cover point of view, you are correct that MoN and MoS Princes survive just as much as MoT Prince. But what about when they are not in cover? What about when in combat and there's that hidden power fist or you're getting shot to bits with plasma and missile launchers?

I used Defilers when the current CSM codex came out (07) and stopped using them (09). The nail in the coffin for me with them is they are big ass and attract loads of fire power plus they aren't the brilliant at shooting and not that brilliant at combat and each one of those things it can do is held back by the other.

BladeWalker wrote:Yay Chaos Marines! Hey mercer how do you think you would have done if you had one less PM squad and Fists in all the rest of them? A little finishing power in assault may have been all you needed. Another possible way to rework the list would be to lose the princes in favor of beefier squads with fists and then use a cheap lord as hq and stick him in a rhino. That way you could still take the surprise Greater for those jobs that require a monster. I like the list as is, I just think it needs to be able to finish assaults.

Necron list seems solid, a bad turn of rolling on your Arks could really hamper your momentum but you have some great threats to keep armies busy while the unkillable scorers move into position.

I would rather take a power weapon to smash infantry tbh, but I would need to work it out maths wise. Problem is taking a power fist just makes the Plague Marines silly expensive. Losing the Princes would not suit this list at all. It would lose the monstrous creature/walker saturation, which is the theme of the list.

The Arks did ok. You can position them nicely go give cover well to the rest of your army. I did forget about the Warrior regen, but no Warriors on foot were in range anyway.

jy2 wrote:Just to expound on the Chaos list, basically it looks like an attempted "translation" of one of the Imperial MSU-shooty lists. While it is an alright list, it doesn't really play to the strength of Chaos synergy.

There's a reason why dual-lash is the most competitive build in the chaos codex, even against the plethora of competitive-mech builds. But it's ok not to run dual-lash. Not eveyone will like doing so.

It is a MSU list, which CSM can do, just not as well as other codexes thanks to the lack of a Razorback :(/

I wouldn't rate lash as competitive though.

quickfuze wrote:Yeah I have to agree with others here, as CSM are my babies (about 25K worth including APOC) I can honestly say that when I opened the post and just read the CSM list I said "well this is already over, necrons win". CSM is not a great codex in the current meta and this is not even a very optimized list for said codex. Nothing against you, I just think that an optimized CSM list could have made the game much closer if not able to eek out a win. A good read none the less, thanks for taking the time to post it.

Thanks about the report. So you say it is not a optimised list, what would you do to make it better?

tetrisphreak wrote:I'm curious -was this a solo Batrep?

Yes. Eager to test CSM.

quickfuze wrote:Defilers have a place in certain lists....in a four heavy list I run one because it either attracts fire away from my landraider/or even better away from transport rhinos or it walks across the board firing a battle cannon until in combat...and I completely disagree that a defiler is bad in CC....6 str10 attacks on the charge is nothing to sneeze at... you just to control what combats it gets into and not aim it at something you know it will lose too...at a min its a tar pit for a round or two

That's all they are good for, attracting fire. Why would you want to pay 150 points for something just to be a fire magnet and not to a lot at all? 6 x S10 attacks is alright, but it doesn't have that standard, you have to get the dccw extra. What is bad is it is WS3. That is what makes it bad in combat. What is worse in a tarpit situation - is a Defiler tarpiting some Guardsmen or the Guardsmen tarpiting the Defiler?

Red Corsair wrote:I hate chaos dreads.... look great but are so unreliable. Bringing 3 just guaranties that they go nuts. Lucky they didn't melta their own armor. Nurgle princes with warp time are better. I love auto canon havocs but they are over cost. Generally I find vindicators and oblits are the best option which is no doubt why every one plays them.

Having multiples does increase the chances of them going flying rodent gak crazy, but it is a game of dice. There isn't any risk of them blasting themselves or any of my own stuff as I keep them pointed the right way.

Nurgle Princes are pretty cool, but I found stuff firing at a Prince would be missile launchers, lascannons and meltas and in combat power fists and hammers - all these do not care about T6. I am more of a shooty player and I'd rather have that extra 'melta' shot and be a bit more survivable if my ass gets shot at.

Isn't most things in the CSM 'dex over costed . I've used Vindicators and Obliterators previously, Vindicators are slow getting into range and Obliterators dare I say are too flexible? Also consider a unit of two Oblits cost 150 points and max they can fire (mostly) is two shots, while Havocs for 5 points more you get 4 shots.

Defiler37 wrote:You said the spyder died via sweeping advance? forgive me i dont have my dex nor rulebook on me but aren't the spyders MCs? And if so cant they not be swept?

My mistake, the Spyder is fearless. Nevermind!

Tortured-Robot wrote:************

Elite

Chaos Dreadnought - multi melta & missile launcher
Chaos Dreadnought - multi melta & missile launcher
Chaos Dreadnought - multi melta & missile launcher

*************

This would worry the crap out of me!!

If you was the other side of the table?

kenshin620 wrote:3 Chaos dreads? I cant remember the last time I've seen one

Still they did put up a bit of a fight. Chaos could really use a new codex

I wouldn't say the Dreadnoughts put up a fight . One got immobilised first turn, did nothing when it did fire and the Overlord cut it in two pieces. Another got wrecked first turn and the other went crazy and ran off and ate heat ray. That's not very good. I am hoping for better results next time.

I get the list, but echo the sentiments of Lash or Nurgle Princes. I'd also drop those dreds. In my experience they are just too unreliable. Even if you play fire frenzy as "things within the 45 degree arc of vision", they still seem to do the wrong thing too often. Sure, they are cheap, but when you can't control them 33% of the time, that's a problem.

I think that the Havoks are fine but I still think a squad of Obliterators is very nice to have for the versatility. Have you considered Terminators in place of the dreds? 3 man units with a Reaper and 2 combi weapons isn't incredible, but it has the ability to cause some chaos.

As for the Cron list, do you think the single Solar Pulse is enough? At 2k it's not terribly hard to get a second one in there and the CCB Overlord seemed pretty awesome. A second turn of neutering the CSM shooting could have turned that from a good win to a beatdown.

The CSM list was a bit off.

Personally I think he should have replaced the Havocs with vindicators or defilers (they still do the damage to the crons and are better).

As for MoT princes I agree with everything that has been said for them (i personally run MoN princes unless im fighting horde armys).

And the plague marines were a good choice but were are expensive.

This concludes IMHO as no suprise you won.

Great Bat rep nontheless.

I am with most others it seems, in that the chaos list can do better. BUT, it still had a decent chance of winning, as shown by the point tallys.

I think what hampered the chaos player is a lack of close combat. The dreads lost the fists, the plagues are minimum units with no fist, the havocs do not benefit from cc. Really only the princes can do something in cc, and the princes suffer from nothing to hide behind. A chaos land raider is tall enough to completely hide 2 princes, effectively solving the issue versus the cron list.

This boiled down to chaos space marines with limited and exposed close combat versus a necron list with a fear of close combat but good shooting.

JGrand wrote:I get the list, but echo the sentiments of Lash or Nurgle Princes. I'd also drop those dreds. In my experience they are just too unreliable. Even if you play fire frenzy as "things within the 45 degree arc of vision", they still seem to do the wrong thing too often. Sure, they are cheap, but when you can't control them 33% of the time, that's a problem.

I think that the Havoks are fine but I still think a squad of Obliterators is very nice to have for the versatility. Have you considered Terminators in place of the dreds? 3 man units with a Reaper and 2 combi weapons isn't incredible, but it has the ability to cause some chaos.

As for the Cron list, do you think the single Solar Pulse is enough? At 2k it's not terribly hard to get a second one in there and the CCB Overlord seemed pretty awesome. A second turn of neutering the CSM shooting could have turned that from a good win to a beatdown.

I tried the triple Dreadnoughts again and they was a big problem in the game I will report on shortly.

Tried Oblits before, they are ok, but they are too versailty. I am not going to use all those weapons they have (which I am paying points for) and the Havocs offer a lot better rate of fire.

Reaper cannons aren't that good really.

At 2k it is a problem to get another pulse in there. I would need to get another Overlord (90 points) and then at least a single Cryptek with a pulse (55 points) which is 145 points I have to find from some where.

happygolucky wrote:The CSM list was a bit off.

Personally I think he should have replaced the Havocs with vindicators or defilers (they still do the damage to the crons and are better).

As for MoT princes I agree with everything that has been said for them (i personally run MoN princes unless im fighting horde armys).

And the plague marines were a good choice but were are expensive.

This concludes IMHO as no suprise you won.

Great Bat rep nontheless.

Vindicators are alright, but they won't last long in a CSM list and won't fire until turn 2 earliest. Defilers are not that good either.

DevianID wrote:I am with most others it seems, in that the chaos list can do better. BUT, it still had a decent chance of winning, as shown by the point tallys.

I think what hampered the chaos player is a lack of close combat. The dreads lost the fists, the plagues are minimum units with no fist, the havocs do not benefit from cc. Really only the princes can do something in cc, and the princes suffer from nothing to hide behind. A chaos land raider is tall enough to completely hide 2 princes, effectively solving the issue versus the cron list.

This boiled down to chaos space marines with limited and exposed close combat versus a necron list with a fear of close combat but good shooting.

Close combat is a issue for the CSM list and perhaps I need something in there. If I did take Dreadnoughts again then I probably would take a dccw, though I definitely wouldn't put fists on Plague Marines - way too expensive.

The Princes can hide behind Rhinos . A single Land Raider is a bad idea and no point taking it just for the Necrons because that would be list tailoring and plus I play than just Necrons.

Why is a land raider tailoring versus crons? Its a great unit versus a lot of people, and if nothing else you get more long range shooting. Also, unlike a rhino to hide behind, the raider blocks los. The rhino just gives cover

I dont like.fists on plagues either, but since you have so many plagues to begin with to the exclusion of other troops thats the only place to put them.

Because you're taking a Land Raider because Necrons don't have a huge ways to deal with, only entropic strike is really what can deal with Land Raider. You suggested taking it as it would solve the issue against the Necrons list, that would be list talioring and also doesn't solve any issues. Cover is fine from a Rhino, of course things not getting shot is better, but Land Raiders are not the solution.

It is the only place to put power fists, but whether Plague Marines are the only units to have power fists or not doesn't mean you should put them on as the champion and fist is silly points.

mercer I dont know, I think seeing as 2 spiders could beat all but your 2 hq units in cc, any necron cc abilites like wraiths will school you in the future. If your happy with the list then so be it, I just have to scratch my head a bit. I think there were mech vet lists that would out cc this list.

As to the raider, still I am going to insist its not tailoring to necrons. I feel the Raider, combined with a cheap termie squad, is a great buy versus everyone--especially because you could use the LOS blocking abilities for your Princes. You already have a 4++, cover from rhinos adds nothing.