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so here's the question.

I don't know what rules would apply to this but the basic problem is that the deffrolla is an option so it doesn't count as part of the vehicle (right?), but then several other game mechanics don't really work because I have an inch wide space in front of my vehicle that is neither taken up by my vehicle nor can it be taken up by any other model, because I have a deff rolla there!

so do I use the deffrolla as the thing I put in contact with units to tank shock?
How does a unit assault me if it's only an option attached to the front instead of my hull?
Does it count towards TLOS when someone is shooting at me?
does it count towards 1 inch rule during movement phase?
if I'm shooting burna boys out of it can I place template on it?

I looked at the FAQ and I couldn't find anything so I did some research and I'm sure that this is something that's been hacked out before so if you know the topic's link feel free to post it and i'll read through that.

Ive always used it as part of the hull, I can get boys out there, but i also have a terribly small front arc.

The deffroller is wargear, and unless you and your opponent say otherwise at deployment, it's just decorative addon's to the vehicle.

juraigamer wrote:The deffroller is wargear, and unless you and your opponent say otherwise at deployment, it's just decorative addon's to the vehicle.

This doesn't answer any of this questions.

@ vercingatorix: I don't know the correct answers. I just play it like a 20 point extension of the hull. That will resolve all of your issues except legality.

The movement rules specify that the hull is what matters in terms of disembarking, assaulting, 1" away from enemy models, etc. Guns, dozer blades, and the like don't count, even though they can physically obstruct things. The deffrolla is the same situation as a dozer blade, just moreso. The real question is just whether you're going to count it as hull (in which case you can assault it, disembark from it, etc.) or not.

I most commonly see it played as NOT part of the hull, which both avoids making the frontage narrower (which would hurt the Ork player) and avoids making the vehicle longer, which would allow more distance to be gained from a sideways deployment + pivot (which some opponents will not be happy with).

The guys I know usually build the deffrolla so it can either swing up or be removed completely when ramming or disembarking, so it doesn't obstruct things.

I have seen it both ways as well, and nobody has ever given me an answer about the legality of either modeling with any references. So, until I find something in writing, I'm going to keep doing it the the more convenient way.

kinda like the sponson cover is wargear ... but is still part of the hull on a lrbt

it really seems kind of silly for my burna boys to be playing log roller on top of my deff rolla, but it seems like the only way it would work without me removing the model.

Also does anyone know the actual dimensions of the deffrolla? So I can at least make mine the official size

With the logic stated above (and I mean that sincerely not sarcastically) does that mean the sponsons of a Land Raider do not count as hull? Such as for determining if it can move between two pieces of cover or moving between a gap in the wall.

I think that wargear on vehicles is usually treated as part of vehicle for moment purposes and assault purposes but not for shooting? maybe that's how this is resolved.

but I still don't understand for assault, can someone assault my deffrolla?

For what it's worth, I have always played it is part of the hull. Otherwise, you open up a can of worms that is just too complicated.

For example, technically you could hit a vehicle with the rolla without ramming it.
You could disembark into the area under the rolla.

It just makes for easier gameplay to count as hull, IMHO. Yes, you could be that guy and gain movement from a sideways deployment. But then you are also giving up AV 12 shots.

I always played it as not hull. It fit into the grey area between hull and weapons, where it cannot be measured to for shooting/LOS but it can affect rams and tank shocks. It is like the reinforced ram example in the BGB.

-cgmckenzie

I inform my opponent at the beginning of every game that just like dozerblades and reinforced rams, my deff rollas are not hull and do not count for anything. If they are in the way for whatever reasion, I will remove them from the BW until there is room so they can be attached again. Most of my opponent agree, more so if I explain that otherwise disembarking and shooting from the deff rolla would be possible.

If the opponent disagrees, the deff rolla counts as hull for all purposes, including shooting weapons from it and disembarking out of it.

Both interpretations are within the rules, I don't really care which one my opponent wants. Just make sure you're on the same side before the game.

Does anybody even know the rules, and have references? Or does everybody just wing it and hope for a good outcome like I do?

I treat my Deffrolla as part of the hull and inform my opponent before the game. During setup it does not go past my deployment zone and all measurement/disembarking is from/to it. That is actually a disadvantage as it gives more room for side shots at AV 12 instead of FA shots of 14. I see it as something that has the ability to harm so it should count for movement/hull/shooting at ect... To say something that adds an inch or two of distance and can cause STR 10 hits isn't there just seems wrong to me.

if you don't treat it as part of the hull you wouldn't technically be able to disembark off the front of a BW. The rules don't allow you to change a model mid-game so you can't swing it up and if you deploy the BW with the Deffrolla raised you are going to probably block LOS to most weapons you put on it.

Jidmah wrote:I inform my opponent at the beginning of every game that just like dozerblades and reinforced rams, my deff rollas are not hull and do not count for anything. If they are in the way for whatever reasion, I will remove them from the BW until there is room so they can be attached again. Most of my opponent agree, more so if I explain that otherwise disembarking and shooting from the deff rolla would be possible.

If the opponent disagrees, the deff rolla counts as hull for all purposes, including shooting weapons from it and disembarking out of it.

Both interpretations are within the rules, I don't really care which one my opponent wants. Just make sure you're on the same side before the game.

pretty much exactly the way i handle it. I'm ok with it being either, just as long as it is established so that there isnt' bickering later

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Does anybody even know the rules, and have references? Or does everybody just wing it and hope for a good outcome like I do?

Jidmah and I both answered by the rules. The rules clearly state that it's the hull that matters for virtually all measurement purposes relating to vehicles. The Deff Rolla is not explicitly defined as being hull or not being hull, but as long as you agree to play it one way or the other with your opponent, and are consistent, things will be fine. IMO I lean toward it being "not-hull", and I find that the game works very well playing it thay way, and just removing it or swinging it up into the air when it gets in the way.

Yup... before every game I ask my oppenent:
" do you consider this part of the hull?"

If Yes, then I play it that way, which does give me more ooph doing the deployment sideways, then pivot trick. But, it also gives it a larger "footprint" that it's impossible to hide.

If No, I either swing it up or take the DR off.

I play the deff rolla as part of the hull. Never had any problems.

Mannahnin wrote:Jidmah and I both answered by the rules. The rules clearly state that it's the hull that matters for virtually all measurement purposes relating to vehicles. The Deff Rolla is not explicitly defined as being hull or not being hull, but as long as you agree to play it one way or the other with your opponent, and are consistent, things will be fine. IMO I lean toward it being "not-hull", and I find that the game works very well playing it thay way, and just removing it or swinging it up into the air when it gets in the way.

No you didn't answer by the rules. Show me in the rules where you are allowed to change a model in game by swinging the Deffrolla up in the air when it gets in the way.

The best rule reference is the one showing the reinforced ram on an ork trukk being ignored during measurement. While being 2 different upgrades, they both are incredibly similar in purpose and the deff rolla is basically a ram on steroids. Don't have my BGB on me now but I think it was page 5 or something like that.

-cgmckenzie

Actually it's Page 3.
This is also a problem with the DE Shock Prow, because if you imagine the shock prow is not there, you have a clear shot right into the heart of the skimmers...

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Jidmah and I both answered by the rules. The rules clearly state that it's the hull that matters for virtually all measurement purposes relating to vehicles. The Deff Rolla is not explicitly defined as being hull or not being hull, but as long as you agree to play it one way or the other with your opponent, and are consistent, things will be fine. IMO I lean toward it being "not-hull", and I find that the game works very well playing it thay way, and just removing it or swinging it up into the air when it gets in the way.

No you didn't answer by the rules. Show me in the rules where you are allowed to change a model in game by swinging the Deffrolla up in the air when it gets in the way.

Actually, you are neither required, nor allowed to do that. If you would count the deff rolla as not being hull (just like dozer blades, reinforced rams or shock prows), you would be forced, by RAW, to ram that part into the actual enemy model when ramming, as you are not allowed to stop ramming before you make contact. The same for tank shocking models, those upgrade would end up on top of an enemy model. I guess any opponent prefers you taking off the deff rolla over crushing/damaging his models. Of course, if you wanted to go all-stupid-RAW you would have to remove the entire battlewagon as explained in the "Wobbly Model Syndrom"-rule, but that would disturb the game much more than simply plucking off the deff rolla, wouldn't it?

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Jidmah and I both answered by the rules. The rules clearly state that it's the hull that matters for virtually all measurement purposes relating to vehicles. The Deff Rolla is not explicitly defined as being hull or not being hull, but as long as you agree to play it one way or the other with your opponent, and are consistent, things will be fine. IMO I lean toward it being "not-hull", and I find that the game works very well playing it thay way, and just removing it or swinging it up into the air when it gets in the way.

No you didn't answer by the rules. Show me in the rules where you are allowed to change a model in game by swinging the Deffrolla up in the air when it gets in the way.

The rules tell you that only the hull matter for assault moves, ramming, disembarking, etc. The existence and location of the deffrolla, if not played as hull, becomes an irrelevancy for rules purposes, except WYSIWYG. If it's not hull, you can't shoot at it, can't assault from it, etc. Removing the Deffrolla when it is in the way then becomes purely a factor of convenience to both you and your opponent, similar to "Wobbly Model Syndrome" situations.

If your opponent wants to be unpleasant and try to argue that it's not hull but it still blocks space and complicates disembarkation (etc) then that would cut both ways- if he can't make contact with the hull then he'd be physically unable to assault the front armor. And you could potentially make an argument that the deffrolla blocks half the front hull from LOS, this making the BW generate its own cover from the front at all times. These are obviously absurd ways to play it. The convenience, consistency and appropriateness of the two alternatives Jidmah and I described should be clear to any reasonable opponent. If the opponent is not reasonable, don't play them. If it's a tournament, talk with the TO beforehand and make sure they're on the same page as you.

Umm I didn't say you were wrong. You stated you play it by the rules when you move the Deff Rolla out of the way. I simply asked you where in the rules are you allowed to change a model in game?

You move the deffrolla out of the way to make room for models. My question to this is when measuring for Tank Shock or ram do you measure from the Deffrolla when down or from the hull? If you measure from the deffrolla IMO you are gaining a few inches. I am not able to justify in fairness to an opponent that I have a piece of wargear that has the potential to slag a Landraider and there is nothing he can do about it.

I count the deffrolla as part of the hull. This forces me to keep it in my deployment zone and all measurement to/from the front of the BW is from there. To me this is the most fair approach for my opponent.

Neither approach is wrong as there is nothing in the rulebook I could find that presents a convincing argument either way. In absence of the rule I opt to go with the interpretation more favorable to my opponent. I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt than take it for myself.

Fair enough, and that's cool. IMO playing it the way the opponent finds most comfortable and intuitive is generally the best and most sportsmanlike thing to do. In my local area not counting the 'rolla and swinging it up or removing it when it's in the way is more common, but both approaches certainly work.

My favorite way to play it is rather like the way mannahnin described; it's not hull but it is there for game purposes. You can't shoot it or through it, it causes tank shocks/rams upon contact, but I cannot disembark or shoot from it myself.

It is an incredibly fluffy way to play it, but has almost no basis in the rules. Fortunately enough, the meta at my FLGS has enough anti tank that the ork players feel this is a fair way to make our codex even more awesome!

-cgmckenzie

I don't think that's at all the way I described. The way you're talking about kind of makes it both hull and not hull for different purposes. If your local group is comfortable with that, that's cool. But I expect you may need to play it differently in tournaments, especially if you travel.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Umm I didn't say you were wrong. You stated you play it by the rules when you move the Deff Rolla out of the way. I simply asked you where in the rules are you allowed to change a model in game?

You move the deffrolla out of the way to make room for models. My question to this is when measuring for Tank Shock or ram do you measure from the Deffrolla when down or from the hull? If you measure from the deffrolla IMO you are gaining a few inches. I am not able to justify in fairness to an opponent that I have a piece of wargear that has the potential to slag a Landraider and there is nothing he can do about it.

I count the deffrolla as part of the hull. This forces me to keep it in my deployment zone and all measurement to/from the front of the BW is from there. To me this is the most fair approach for my opponent.

Neither approach is wrong as there is nothing in the rulebook I could find that presents a convincing argument either way. In absence of the rule I opt to go with the interpretation more favorable to my opponent. I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt than take it for myself.

If it's not hull, I measure from the front of the driver compartment, just like the picture on pg.3 of the BRB ignores the reinforced ram of the trukk when measuring to it.

Both Mannahnin and I are not trying to get an advantage either way, we want a consistent ruling within the game rules. Which one is largely irrelevant.

So you measure from the hull for movement and disembarking. Where do you measure from when Ramming or Tank shocking? My take is if it can cause damage then it should be used for targetting/assault purposes. The extra 2-3 inches for the Deffrolla just seems like an unfair advantage. This coming from someone that fields 4 Deffrollas in my BW list.

Again I'd rather give my opponent the benefit of the doubt in this case since the rules are unclear. If you wish to give yourself the benefit of the doubt that is fine with me.