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I've just bought a grey-knight codex and, rather than paladin spam, was thinking of a grey knight shooting army with psycannons.



My major question is :

I would like to take a troop choice with Psycannons. Grey Knight...

Terminators with Psycannons? Relentless but expensive

Strike Squads with Psycannons? Not enough psycannons, can't shoot out of a moving rhino with psycannons

Crowe + Purifiers with Psycannons, Justicar with MC Psycannon? Paying extra to kit a close-combat squad with better ranged shooting...




I have ruled out purgation squads with Psycannons... too expensive, and takes up Psyrifledread slots.

PS: quite sad that psybolt ammo doesn't make them STR 8....

No matter how many psycanons you field you wont ever be a true shooty army. They only have a range of 24 in. The closest youd have to real long range is psyfleman, vindicare, lr with lascanon(which is meh) or a sr(which again is meh since their job is to get assault troops to a target). You can shoot out of a rhino as long as its only 6 in. Small squad purifiers can have quite a few and still for the pts be more effective then other power armor gk. You just have to buy crowe is is almost useless espeacially in kp games since he cannot join a squad. If you want an actual shooty list you would use the Inquisition side not the gk.

For lots of pyscannons i would go w/ crowe and purifies, actually that is not what i would use, that is what i use!

Draigo wrote:No matter how many psycanons you field you wont ever be a true shooty army. They only have a range of 24 in. The closest youd have to real long range is psyfleman, vindicare, lr with lascanon(which is meh) or a sr(which again is meh since their job is to get assault troops to a target). You can shoot out of a rhino as long as its only 6 in. Small squad purifiers can have quite a few and still for the pts be more effective then other power armor gk. You just have to buy crowe is is almost useless espeacially in kp games since he cannot join a squad. If you want an actual shooty list you would use the Inquisition side not the gk.

Psycannons + STR5 AP4 24" storm bolters sounds good. Between that and the psyrifledreads that's plenty of shooting for me.

With crowe it feels odd spending the points on making a cc unit into a shooty unit, but I think it's a better call than Paladin spam which is a little overdone atm...

A true shooty army is like IG, DE and Tau.

As far as saying purifiers are cc and making them shooty.. Theyre more of multi purpose squad. Cause even if you do drop the nfw etc to give them a psycanon they still have cleansing flame for cc. In the grand scheme of things purifiers, henchamn and draigowing are ALL overdone. Main prob with purifiers is theyre still just power armor marines and kinda a glass canon so if you play them like theyre termies or nobs they will get beat up. They ned to pick their moments to assault and need cover til then.

Draigo wrote:A true shooty army is like IG, DE and Tau.

As far as saying purifiers are cc and making them shooty.. Theyre more of multi purpose squad. Cause even if you do drop the nfw etc to give them a psycanon they still have cleansing flame for cc. In the grand scheme of things purifiers, henchamn and draigowing are ALL overdone. Main prob with purifiers is theyre still just power armor marines and kinda a glass canon so if you play them like theyre termies or nobs they will get beat up. They ned to pick their moments to assault and need cover til then.

Then what grey knight army is effective yet not overdone? If I'm going to pay Australian prices for most of my miniatures, it sounds like Grey Knights don't have too many options in a competitive but generalist sense...

Purifiers do shooty best.


GKs are actually more of a hybrid army. they do very well in both shooting and assault phases.

Purifiers get up into the middle of the board and start unloading their ranged weaponry. Then they use their CC abilities to finish off the survivors.


You can't go pure shooty, you can't go pure CC. You always do both.


I run 10 man Purifier Squads with Psybolts, 4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, and a Hammer. Halberd and 4 Psycannons split off and can go sit on an objective somewhere. 16 Str7 rending shots a turn is devestating for anything caught out by it. then the hammer and 4 Halberds moves forward as a single unit.

Alternativly, they don't split up and form one large shooty platform. They also do very well if coming out of a Landraider.


if you want to mech up I would only take 2 psycannons per squad as thats all that can shoot out of a Rhino's hatch.


Purifiers also NEED to be supported by Psyflemen dreadnoughts. Venerable or regular doesn't really matter, but Venerable is very good if you can afford its 60 point price tag and the Elite slot. These guys provide essential 48" Str8 shots at dead on accuracy.

Vindicare Assassin is another good support choice. Pinpoint accurate results. need one vehicle absolutly positivly taken out? or perhaps you need to get rid of some special weapons. BS8 means he hits on 2+ with him rerolling ones for a 4+. He's going to hit his target. But remember you only ever get 1 Vindicare.

with the advent of the mind shackle scarab, paying for 2 guys with psycannons has been EXTREMELY useful in CC!

Just make sure they are the most forward out of your troop and get into base to base with the necrons with the scarabs. Since they lack power weapons, they will not auto kill your own men. (also you'd want them most up front at all times anyway for the range check)

I've had many a paladin/termy/halberd knight kill 3 of their own with their I6 power weapons and that's like 4 guys taken out of the fight. Utterly devestating in small squads like MSU purifiers or strike knights.

Also, vindicare was origionally dropped from my lists but now with some of the locals proxying a field of AV13-14 necron tanks, I am actually putting him back in possibly with a techmarine to bolster ruins

Grey Templar wrote:
if you want to mech up I would only take 2 psycannons per squad as thats all that can shoot out of a Rhino's hatch.

Is it true you cannot fire Heavy Weapons from the hatch while the transport is moving? This is different from hull mounted heavy weapons...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/272698.page#1235677




Here is the list I am toying with at the moment. Because the "moving vehicle counts as moving for hatch shooting"



Inquisitor - Ordos Xenos 1
Rad Grenades
Power Weapon
Digital Weapons
Death Cult Assassins 5
Crusaders 2
Land Raider Redeemer 1
Psybolt Ammo 1

Grey Knight Strike Squad 2
Razorback 2
Psybolt Ammo 2

Dreadnought 2
Autocannon 1 2
Autocannon 2 2
Psybolt Ammo 2

Go with purifers. You get a total of 4 Psycannons in a semi full squad.

"A true shooty army is like IG, DE and Tau."

I strongly disagree. By any objective measurement you can get the same number of shots in GK, with similiar range. You just dont want or need to.

As for DE, the only thing their shooting is different with is poison. So versus most opponent that means s4. A venom thus has 12 s4 shots. We can take a 12 shot s4 weapon in GK, and we dont because it stinks.

severedblue wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
if you want to mech up I would only take 2 psycannons per squad as thats all that can shoot out of a Rhino's hatch.

Is it true you cannot fire Heavy Weapons from the hatch while the transport is moving? This is different from hull mounted heavy weapons...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/272698.page#1235677

Psycannons can be fired as assault 2 or heavy 4

Luke_Prowler wrote:
Psycannons can be fired as assault 2 or heavy 4

Oh I forgot that! Just as well I asked.




Given it's Assault 2,

and two may fire from a rhino,
then it's better to take 10 man strike squads in a rhino, with 2 psycannons?

It's cheaper to run purifiers per squad but you have to pay the "crowe tax"

DevianID wrote:"A true shooty army is like IG, DE and Tau."

I strongly disagree. By any objective measurement you can get the same number of shots in GK, with similiar range. You just dont want or need to.

As for DE, the only thing their shooting is different with is poison. So versus most opponent that means s4. A venom thus has 12 s4 shots. We can take a 12 shot s4 weapon in GK, and we dont because it stinks.

That would mean theyre more shooty since they rely on it. You will never see a GK sit and shoot like those 3 armies. DE also have dl and are faster. in an 1850 list you can have 30 + dl which is better then anything out side of the vindicare or maybe the psy squads. Idk where you got their only difference is poison.

No question, if you want to spam psycannons, Crowe + Purifiers are the way to go.

Don't worry about purifiers being slightly more expensive than strike squads, the 2 cannons per 5 purifiers more than makes up for that.
edit: it also means they can hold their own even better if they do end up in combat.

Draigo, The Psycannon is superior to the dark lance by far as a weapon to spam if you are going to only get one kind of gun in the army.

If your trying to bust av 11 with dark lances, 30 net 20 hits, 10 pens, 3.33 wrecks.

With psycannons to get 10 pens, you need 30 hits, and 45 shots. So if you want, that is a min of 3 TROOP CHOICES lol. In 1850, that leaves 860 points left for 6 psybacks, hammers, 3 psy riflemen.

So if your saying only one gun then saying your buying others with extra pts? From your math it doesnt look like much more in favor of your psycanons. Espeacially taking into the factor dl have better range and more vehicles to still have on the board. Plus you also didnt mention all the other guns the de will still have. Odd

Dunwich wrote:No question, if you want to spam psycannons, Crowe + Purifiers are the way to go.

Don't worry about purifiers being slightly more expensive than strike squads, the 2 cannons per 5 purifiers more than makes up for that.
edit: it also means they can hold their own even better if they do end up in combat.

I ran the numbers. I am thinking whether "purifier psycannons" is better or "moar marines + psybolt ammo stormbolters" is better



These are the point values:

Crowe + 2 squads of purifiers:


Castellan Crowe +

Purifier Squad 180 per squad
Psycannons x 2
Rhino

VS

Grey Knight Strike Squad 280 per squad
Extra Marines x 5
Psycannons x 2
Rhino
Psybolt Ammo



At two squads, the point values are 510 vs 560 which is comparable.

If crowe counts as your HQ, then it's cheaper overall,

BUT

Crowe is a CC HQ when spamming purifiers psycannons, so not the best HQ choice.

I am worried as well about low model count, which is normal for grey knights but I don't want to make the problem worse. Volume-of-fire for storm bolters also sounds yummy...





Decisions decisions....

The point draigo is that you seemed to be boasting about 30 darklances in 1850. My point is that you can have 48 psycannons for only 840 points, less than half of your 1850 allotment spent on getting dark lances.

So yeah, if you really wanted to, you could have 96 pcannon shots in 1850, as well as 72 s4 shots, and 12 fearless scoring units, plus the ability to move and still shoot a minimum of 48 pcannon shots.

I think you were just being obtuse though, as my initial point was that its a joke to say that GK is not a shooting army when DE are.

DevianID wrote:The point draigo is that you seemed to be boasting about 30 darklances in 1850. My point is that you can have 48 psycannons for only 840 points, less than half of your 1850 allotment spent on getting dark lances.

So yeah, if you really wanted to, you could have 96 pcannon shots in 1850, as well as 72 s4 shots, and 12 fearless scoring units, plus the ability to move and still shoot a minimum of 48 pcannon shots.

I think you were just being obtuse though, as my initial point was that its a joke to say that GK is not a shooting army when DE are.

Boasting?I said de are better at range. I play Gk purifiers and Draigowing against DE at least twice a week so saying that 24 in range is as good as their shooting is incredibly false. Unless your ds next to them theyre getting at least 1 turn to shoot at you before you do anything. In spearhead they may even get 2 turns of shooting where all you have in a vindicare and ur psyfleman. Not the same at all.

So Draigo, perhaps explain the 1850 list with 30 dark lances then? Cause I still have seen nothing to counter the psycannon argument--namely DE are NOT better at range.

To the OP, Purifiers are not a cc unit, though they are not terrible at cc. They are a shooting unit through and through, with the Grey Knighs above average cc enhanced by a great psychic power. Personally, I prefer fearless on shooting units and ATSKNF on combat units. Getting escorted off the board is bad, but failing a morale check and moving back out of optimal firing range or off an objective is worse to me.

1850 with 30 lances isnt even maximized or counting venom spam. Its just what they can have on their vehicles for free. Most gk lists have only 3-5 vehicles. Most de have twice that so you wrecking 3 a turn doesnt hurt them like it does gk. Plus even raiders can add splinter wracks to twin link the kabalites rifles. Kabalites have the same ballistic skill as sm. So 30 lance shots isnt even facotring in the rest of the shooting that de can do. All those psycanons you mentioned to try to match JUST the dl is all the gk shooting.

Draigo wrote:1850 with 30 lances isnt even maximized or counting venom spam. Its just what they can have on their vehicles for free. Most gk lists have only 3-5 vehicles. Most de have twice that so you wrecking 3 a turn doesnt hurt them like it does gk. Plus even raiders can add splinter wracks to twin link the kabalites rifles. Kabalites have the same ballistic skill as sm. So 30 lance shots isnt even facotring in the rest of the shooting that de can do. All those psycanons you mentioned to try to match JUST the dl is all the gk shooting.

I would comment but would prefer if you did not de-rail my thread, thanks.

If you'd like to make your point, please kindly make it in another thread.

severedblue wrote:

Draigo wrote:1850 with 30 lances isnt even maximized or counting venom spam. Its just what they can have on their vehicles for free. Most gk lists have only 3-5 vehicles. Most de have twice that so you wrecking 3 a turn doesnt hurt them like it does gk. Plus even raiders can add splinter wracks to twin link the kabalites rifles. Kabalites have the same ballistic skill as sm. So 30 lance shots isnt even facotring in the rest of the shooting that de can do. All those psycanons you mentioned to try to match JUST the dl is all the gk shooting.

I would comment but would prefer if you did not de-rail my thread, thanks.

If you'd like to make your point, please kindly make it in another thread.

I didnt start that discussion but I will no longer go along with it.

severedblue wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:
Psycannons can be fired as assault 2 or heavy 4

Oh I forgot that! Just as well I asked.




Given it's Assault 2,

and two may fire from a rhino,
then it's better to take 10 man strike squads in a rhino, with 2 psycannons?

It's cheaper to run purifiers per squad but you have to pay the "crowe tax"

Its better only if you are planning on purely playing the shooting game. Strike Squads aren't that great in CC because they only have 1 attack each at I4. GKs need Halberds to do decently and SS halberds are very expensive. SS really only kill MEQs, and that isn't super impressive.

Purifiers with Halberds are more cost effective due to twice as many attacks AND the anti-horde ability of Cleansing Flame and having roughly the same ranged damage, discounting the ability to take 4 psycannons. Hordes are something MEQ struggle with, but this power tips the advantage in the favor of the Purifiers.


And the Crowe tax really isn't much of a tax. He's pretty cheap for the GK codex(Only inquisitors and Brotherhood champions are cheaper, and inquisitors can get really expensive with all their options) where you can easily spend 250+ on an HQ. For the price you get another set of Cleansing Flame and the ability to pretty much Snipe any character he can catch. he's great for throwing at some uber character that needs to be removed from the table.

3 x Autocannon Dreads
1 x Castellan Crowe
5 x 5 Purifiers w 2 Psicannon & Psibolt
5 x Razorback w Assault Cannon & Psibolt

Should run you about 1800 points.

20 S7 Rending Assault Cannon shots
20 (40) S7 Psicannon shots
30 S5 Stormbolter shots
12 S8 TL Autocannon shots

Cheaper would be to go with TL Heavy bolter Razorbacks
and forego the psibolt ammo for the squads.
Then you can add one 5- man Strike squad with 1 Psicannon
in a Razorback and have enough to add a Vindicare assassin.

That yields

18 S6 TL Heavy Bolter shots
22(44) S7 Psicannon shots
38 S4 Stormbolter shots
12 S8 TL Autocannon shots
and the Vindicare...

DAaddict wrote:3 x Autocannon Dreads
1 x Castellan Crowe
5 x 5 Purifiers w 2 Psicannon & Psibolt
5 x Razorback w Assault Cannon & Psibolt

Should run you about 1800 points.

20 S7 Rending Assault Cannon shots
20 (40) S7 Psicannon shots
30 S5 Stormbolter shots
12 S8 TL Autocannon shots

Cheaper would be to go with TL Heavy bolter Razorbacks
and forego the psibolt ammo for the squads.
Then you can add one 5- man Strike squad with 1 Psicannon
in a Razorback and have enough to add a Vindicare assassin.

That yields

18 S6 TL Heavy Bolter shots
22(44) S7 Psicannon shots
38 S4 Stormbolter shots
12 S8 TL Autocannon shots
and the Vindicare...

Thanks for the sample list and the thoughts (from Grey Templar), much appreciated...

I actually think the Paladin spam lists are a little on the weak side for the GK codex. Mostly due to the massive point expense.

Paladins are insanely durable, but if you only have 2 or 3 units it is going to cause some issues. Especially if you are facing an opponent who is fast and maneuverable(Dark Eldar)


If you could still afford transports for your Paladins(Landraider Crusaders) then they would truly be formidible, but as it is the list can't really squeeze in all the support that terminators need to function optimally. I am an overly cautious player, but I think this is a major flaw. They also don't have the 3+ invuln save that Terminators love to hide behind, just a 4+ at best(unless you splurge on Warding Staves)

Nobs, the other wound allocation users, are affordable enough to where you can still fit a solid list around them. They arn't the only target.


Then we have strike squads. Cheap firepower, but they still die like marines and the CC upgrades are really expensive.


Purifiers are an excellent compromise between the SS and Paladins. They can deal with armor(psycannons), hordes(Stormbolters+cleansing flame), and MEQs/multi-wound models(Force Weapons)

Grey Templar wrote:Purifiers are an excellent compromise between the SS and Paladins. They can deal with armor(psycannons), hordes(Stormbolters+cleansing flame), and MEQs/multi-wound models(Force Weapons)

If you are going Purifiers instead of Strike Squads,

how do you get access to Warp Quake? Is there a good mix?

The only major weakness I see currently for the gk army as a whole is its own popularity. Go to a tourney and see the same list 5 times is rough. Reason is stuff like the storm ravens missiles will cause havoc on the smaller squads. The extra emphasis for armies to have hoods(not just gk) because of the number of gk, psyk out grenades can murder ya since everyone and their mother has em, etc. To me the army is its own worst enemy. Thus far in tournament play I have yet to play another gk player but thinking of espeacially my draigo lists vs a storm raven coteaz list my friend runs is a daunting tast with all their anti psy abilities. Plus spending all those pts on pallys or purifiers and watch them killed by one lucky plasma canon shot. My 2 cents but I think the army is its own worst enemy with its own popularity.