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Would the Chronometron work on the Lord of the Storm ability if the Stormlord and the Cryptek are in the same unit. It's been a debate within our group. Arguments fall that it is used at the start of the turn which is not a phase, ie movement, shooting, assaults and as such cannot benefit from the chrono. Also that the 'storm' can voluntarily be ceased. Here is the argument from our private forum against the issue.


chronometron;
"a model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his d6 rolls each phase. If the bearer is in a unit, this ability can be used to instead re-roll one of the unit's d6 rolls each phase"

LoS;
"blah blah...Furthermore, you can attempt to keep the night fighting rules in play...by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn..."

stress on the words that (may) have their import.

first, phase(s).
at the start of the turn is not a phase. start of turn effects are 'sort of' out of the normal flow (as are start of game effects). The consistent 'phase' wording indicates, to me, that it is tied to movement, shooting, or assault type rolls...ie; direct and immediate results that a cryptek bearing the wargear can influence (or influence those of his compatriots).

his/his unit's.
this STRONGLY ties the re-roll into the model/unit's actions (be it shooting, assault or even movement). though LoS is tied to a roll, it is not a 'direct' action (so to speak). it is a persistent effect that has a roll to maintain, and by dint of having the 'can choose' as part of its descriptor, allows for the possibility that you can choose to not make the roll...ie, allow the effect to end.

you can attempt.
though it may sound quibbly, when you ask for RAW, it's whatcha get!
it does not say 'Imotekh' can, or his unit, etc...nor does it say anything that ties the roll specifically to any of Imotekh's stats (etc etc).
now I know it's a stretch, but it's possible GW even used that wording to make certain of that demarkation. I know, thinking that deeply is a stretch for GW, but meh...ya never know!

CAN is the big point in the argument to be allowed a voluntary release of the ability. No requirement is put forth.
YOU is the big mark against the chrono affecting the roll.
PHASES puts it clearly in the normal sequence of play, and outside the 'beginning of turn/game turn/game' upkeep.

What say you Dakka?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/414542.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/409464.page#3550241

I'm sure there are more.

As I said in the first link above:

puma713 wrote:The real debate is if you're allowed to use the re-roll on an ability that is 'happening' with or without the character it is associated with.

The Necron army that takes Imotehk now has the Stormlord ability in place. Sort of like when you take Logan Grimnar, all Wolf Guard become scoring. That is not a 'Logan Grimnar' rule per se - it becomes an army rule. When Logan dies, Wolf Guard don't suddenly stop becoming scoring.

This is exactly the same. The Stormlord bestows the Storm unto the army itself. You (the player) roll a D6 to see if Night Fighting continues. The Cryptek's re-roll cannot affect a roll that the unit itself is not taking part in. The Stormlord himself has nothing to do with the actual Night Fighting rules once they're in place, just like Logan himself has nothing to do with the Wolf Guard units being scoring once they are.

As above.
Stormlords ability is NOT an abilty of the stormlord, i.e. a dice he rolls, but an army wide ability - it works when he is dead, off the table, running away, etc.

You cannot reroll the night fighting, because it is not the Stormlords roll

At this point, I think that you can re-roll Imotekh's ability. Because it is his ability.



EDIT: Spelled Imotekh wrong.

How? HE is not making the roll for whether the enemy unit gets hit, and HE is not rolling the number of hits.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How? HE is not making the roll for whether the enemy unit gets hit, and HE is not rolling the number of hits.

Exactly. There is a better argument for the Night Fighting rules themselves than there is for the Lightning Strikes. At least the Night Fighting is a product of purchasing Imotekh - the Lightning Strikes are merely a byproduct of the Night Fighting rules being in play. They have nothing to do with a specific unit at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How? HE is not making the roll for whether the enemy unit gets hit, and HE is not rolling the number of hits.

Please find me one instance where the BGB or a codex says "Tycho rolls..." or "Logan rolls..." or "Necron Warrior rolls..."

I think we've been through this before: the models do not roll dice. Ever.

YOU, the player, roll dice to represent the outcome. Even in the BGB, look up how to shoot the most basic gun. It will say "roll a D6..." in the exact same way that it does for the Stormlord's lightning.

And if you are claiming that the lightning occurs independent of Imotekh, then that means so long as NF continues, then so too does the lightning, even if Imotekh is dead.

Thats correct - the nightfight and lightning can go the whole game despite him being capped turn 1...

It's an army wide rule. It's like taking vulcan on SM lists. Even if he dies you still get to have twin linked melta.

If that was the case (night fight and lightning being independent of storm lord) then you should be able to acsess those abilitys without taking the character. Obviously you can't. You gain the abilitys via purchasing the special char, therefore it's his ability. In don't have the codex so I don't know why his ability stays in play if he dies, (wich it should ala, Calgar, and so on ). Where is the rules that. Say his abilitys work even after death? Far as I know once a model dies all his abilitys etc go away.

Azazel - yes, they are entirely independent of the army. It is an army wide rule, exactly the same as Vulkans chapter tactics.

Additionally it is VERY obvious which rolls Imotekh makes, and these are not those. You can cheat and play that you get rerolls if you wish, but pre-FAQ it is blindingly obvious what chronometron affects and what it doesnt. It does NOT affect NF or anything to do with the lightning strikes, as NOTHING ties those rolls to the unit.

You are misunderstanding a very basic concept here: while all rolls are obviously made by you, they are still identified with a unit. So, when rolling to hit with a unit, you know what rolls "they" are making - it is obvious.

The rolls for NF / Lightning etc are NOT made by Imotekh. Nothing in the entry suggests that he is the one making the roll - absolutely nothing.

Darrth - inane argument. Vulkans chapter tactics continue after he is dead. So do Shrikes. Does that mean you get them without having to buy the character? No, it just means that buying the character buys your ARMY access to the special rule.

Under your "interpretation" as soon as Logan dies Wolfguard become elites again

True. But some characters have army. Wide abilities that vanish upon their deaths. Calgarrs leadership check thing is example. Snce I don't have the cron dex I was merely asking what exactly makes imotekhs rule continue if he's not in play or dead?

Because it is an army wide rule, nothing tied to the presence of the stormlord

Calgars rule requires him to be alive, slight difference

I really do not see how you have come to that conclusion with such certainty, nor do I even see how it is an army-wide special rule.

The rule is called "Lord of the Storm" and you'll find it on pg. 55 of the codex. Ya know what else is on pg. 55? Imotekh. Please note that the army-wide special rules are found on pg. 29

But thanks for calling me a cheater since I disagree with your groundless argument. You have yet to show me one piece of evidence that explains how Imotekh's ability (I know it's his ability because I can't have the Lord of the Storm ability unless I bring Imotekh, because that ability is listed under IMOTEKH's SPECIAL RULES. Please note the apostrophe, implying ownership. That is, the special rules which belong to Imotekh.) belongs to anyone except for Imotekh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Because it is an army wide rule, nothing tied to the presence of the stormlord

Calgars rule requires him to be alive, slight difference

How? CITE SOMETHING

Azazel - wow, poor sarcasm there

So, you're saying Shrikes army wide fleet is lost when he dies? How about twin linked melta guns

I can cite it with certainty because absolutely nothing within the rules for the Stormlord indicates it is HIM performing the rolls.

Which is why you can perform it when off the table
Or when he's dead

If you buy him, your ARMY gains access to his special rules.

Not a difficult concept

I'd have to agree with the assertation that the rules belong to the army, not Imotekh.

As worded on page 55 "If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules automatically apply during the first game turn. Furthermore, you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a d6 at the start of the turn."

Couple of key things that lead me to my interpretation is the fact that it explicitly mentions army instead of just referencing Imotekh himself. Secondly, the you in the 2nd sentence. I know GW is not always consistent, but this "you" refers to the player, not Imotekh. I say this because if Imotekh did not arrive from reserves on turn 2, and it was a roll Imotekh had to make, then you would have a model off the table making a roll. If that were the case, it would be outlined in a different way, for example, "Imotekh may attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play".

The rule will be in effect regardless of whether Imotekh is on the table or not. You do not get the rule unless you have him, but once purchased for your army, you have access to Lord of the Storm.

If you look at how the astropath rules for the ig are written that is a good example of an army rule that relies on the astropath being alive. It is quite specific. The night fighting rule is worded more like the Vulcan one. I'd say you can't re-roll it.

I've put this question to my gaming group, and they just looked at me like I was an idiot and told me that re-rolls definitely take place. (I'm the only Necron player, too)

However, I do see where you're coming from, and I simply think it's incorrect. But I'm not going to get back into this circular argument, so we'll just have to disagree with one another and leave it at that. Until a FAQ comes out, I'm just going to keep using re-rolls. Which is also never, because I don't field Imotekh.

azazel the cat wrote:I've put this question to my gaming group, and they just looked at me like I was an idiot and told me that re-rolls definitely take place. (I'm the only Necron player, too)

However, I do see where you're coming from, and I simply think it's incorrect. But I'm not going to get back into this circular argument, so we'll just have to disagree with one another and leave it at that. Until a FAQ comes out, I'm just going to keep using re-rolls. Which is also never, because I don't field Imotekh.

Awesome. So his lightning/night time stops if he dies? And if there's a marine player using Shrike, and Shrike dies, no one has Fleet anymore?

Cool story, bro.

As far as the Lightning goes, yeah, I'd think so.

I won't speak about Shrike because I'm not familiar with his rules.

rigeld2 wrote:Awesome. So his lightning/night time stops if he dies? And if there's a marine player using Shrike, and Shrike dies, no one has Fleet anymore?

Cool story, bro.

Putting aside the snide comments for the moment, my gaming group interprets the rules the exact same way - Imotekh gets Chronometron re-rolls for the Storm, and the Storm drops if he dies. I'm not positive which interpretation is correct, and though I lean towards the army rule interpretation there are (as I see it) two schools of thought on this:

1) That once Imotekh has been purchased, Lord of the Storm becomes an army-wide rule. Imotekh does not actively sustain the storm, the D6 roll is used as a representation of the storm subsiding normally. Therefore, Imotekh may not use Chronometron re-rolls on rolls relating to Lord of the Storm, and the storm continues regardless of whether Imotekh has been removed from play.

2) That Imotekh is himself sustaining the storm by use of arcane technology and/or sheer willpower. The D6 roll is a representation of Imotekh willing the storm to continue. Therefore, Imotekh may use Chronometron re-rolls on rolls relating to Lord of the Storm, and the storm fails if Imotekh is removed from play as a casualty (or by some other manner).

There is, however, one very good argument for Imotekh actively sustaining the storm - the lightning never hits the controlling Necron player. You'd think all that metal would draw lightning strikes like a donut shop draws police officers.

Now, I don't pretend to be a rules expert, but as far as I can see the actual wording in the Codex could do go in either direction here. This is a new codex and new ground to cover, and we need to keep in mind that 6th edition is looming on the horizon, so precedents may well go out the window. I'm keeping an open mind here, but until I get an official word from GW I think I'll stick with my group's interpretation to avoid conflict.

^ This is basically my position.

Shrike has chapter tactics, gives you fleet. They are a Special RUle granted by buying him, that give you an army wide rule

Same as Imotekh

This is not similar to Lord of the Storm. Not even close. I never knew what Shrike's rule was until I looked it up, and just now realized that either A: you've never read Shrike's rule, or B: you've never read Imotekh's rule, or C: you're a idiot. Either way, there is no more value for me to check back with this thread.

Chapter Tactics: If you include Kayvaan Shrike then all units
in your army exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for
the Fleet universal special rule. If more than one character in
your army has the Chapter Tactics special rule, you must
choose which version will apply.


EDIT: Merry Christmas all the same.

Yay - I'm an idiot!

Yay for false trichotomies!

The point is that both rules are special rules of a character that you buy, neither of which requires the character to remain alive to apply

The fact you cant tell the difference between something a character performs, say Logans ability to grant USRs to units, and something that occurs without reference to the character, is telling.

Oh, look! There's a Necron FAQ out! ...and what does it say? Why, look at that. It would appear that Imotekh's "Lord of the Storm" ability does indeed (and quite obviously) belong to Imotekh. And thus, it turns out that you CAN re-roll with a Chronometron. Enjoy!

nosferatu1001 wrote:The fact you cant tell the difference between something a character performs, say Logans ability to grant USRs to units, and something that occurs without reference to the character, is telling.

EDIT: ...very mature, I know.

Not at all obvious. This set of FAQs has some BIZARRE rulings in it - like Lash now rolling to hit, for the first time since the power was introduced in 2007

I wouldnt hold up these FAQs as being proof of anything other than GW doesnt let their own rules dictate their FAQ answers....

This also means you dont get it when he is in reserve or dead, so meh.

Yeah, the reserve bit and dead bit re: Imotekh seems about right.

...I won't lie, though: that Lash ruling seems very strange. I assume it's to help curb its power with those possibly-6th Ed. rules, considering the Lash would be somewhat game-breaking under those rules.

Then FAQ it then - not under 5th edition.

Especially since Jaws doesnt need to roll to hit now, same for BL.

Before I was happy for it to be army and not tied to Imotekh based - post FAQ its been changed so it is his power and tied to him, so if he is in Reserves no luck with NF