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Looking through the necron codex, I can't see anything that can reliably take out monstrous creatures. By monstrous creatures, I'm thinking mostly of the avatar and wraithlords, both of which can be taken in <1000 point games, and will either be close to a Harlequin squad or acting as a counter assault unit.



To me, Crypteks with lances are too expensive to be taken in numbers in lower point games, and they seem to be really squishy, especially considering the ranged firepower that armies like Eldar have at their disposal. Sure they can be split up into smaller squads to hide in, but the rest of that squad can't shoot at anything for the rest of the turn.

Same thing with Heavy destroyers, except that they're more expensive for less shots, and they can't hide in squads. Rangers and Dark Reapers will make short work of them methinks.

I think Deathmarks look gimmicky, but I could be wrong. They could potentially take out the MC, but then be taken out by the return short range fire.

I think the range of the Annihilation Barge really lets it down. I reckon it'd get bright lanced long before it can get into effective range. Same goes for the Monolith.

Assuming all the Doomsday Arks templates hit the target, it will still take 3-4 turns of abysmal saving rolls by the opponent to take down the MC.

Scarabs which are usually the anti-armor answer in most lists can't wound MCs, unless I'm missing something? Tomb Spyders will probably get slaughtered before they have a chance to attack.

Wraiths are well... iffy. I'm not sure. They look to me like my best bet, especially when coupled with a destroyer lord with a warscythe and whip coils. I think they might be a bit expensive to run in <1000 point games which is what I'm looking at.

Triarch Stalker also seems that it might work, but could get slaughtered by bright lances.

What does Dakka think the necrons answer to MCs is?

A team effort.

But really, I see wraiths as their best bet. Not only can they kill MC's with their volume of S6 rending attacks, but they can survive MC attacks and/or tarpit them if necessary.

Either that or the ultra-expensive Royalstar with a bunch of 2+/3++ warscythe mindshackle lords and Overlord (which I wouldn't recommend because the unit will cost much, much more than the MC they will kill).

Oh, and a warscythe overlord on command barge is pretty nifty.

Tesseriact labrynth works on MCs and all that needs is btb and your opponent to roll higher than hi MC has wounds left, so wounding it once when it has 4 wounds made your chance go from 4+ to 3+ etc Monolith, Doom scythe and stalker should be able to handle them

Tesseract Labyrinth.
Mindshackle Scarabs.
C'Tan.
Lychguard with Dispersion shields.

Massed Tesla firepower.

I can see the possibility of a Despair Cryptek attached to Deathmarks in conjunction with other units, perhaps also with the stalkers and their relays should help out as well.
Haven't played any games with the new codex, so take it at face value.

jy2 wrote:A team effort.

But really, I see wraiths as their best bet. Not only can they kill MC's with their volume of S6 rending attacks, but they can survive MC attacks and/or tarpit them if necessary.

Either that or the ultra-expensive Royalstar with a bunch of 2+/3++ warscythe mindshackle lords and Overlord (which I wouldn't recommend because the unit will cost much, much more than the MC they will kill).

Oh, and a warscythe overlord on command barge is pretty nifty.

Yeah I think that wraiths look like my best bet, but they're could be quite an expensive tarpit. Would a warscythe lord in ccb be able to stand a chance against the anti-tank do you reckon? He can get a potential 3 wscythe attacks and then a mindshackle scarab test before the MC strikes, so if he can get into combat, he could definitely be worth it.

Exalted Pariah wrote:Tesseriact labrynth works on MCs and all that needs is btb and your opponent to roll higher than hi MC has wounds left, so wounding it once when it has 4 wounds made your chance go from 4+ to 3+ etc Monolith, Doom scythe and stalker should be able to handle them

tesseract labyrinth would be inconsistent, but could be worth a shot I guess. My problem with Monolith and Doom scythe is that they need to get reasonably close to be effective, which puts them inside melta range a lot of the time.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:Tesseract Labyrinth.
Mindshackle Scarabs.
C'Tan.
Lychguard with Dispersion shields.

Massed Tesla firepower.

Hmm didn't think of the C'tan. What would the optimum load out for that sort of C'tan to be? I'm thinking a transdimensional thunderbolt and Grand illusion, since they both will help on other match-ups (not trying to make an army focussed on Eldar). The only problem with a C'tan I can see is that in a 1000 point game, it takes up a quarter of my points.

Lychguard would be OK against the Avatar, but wouldn't be able to hurt a wraithlord. Same goes for Tesla(unless you're thinking 2-3 Annihilation Barges?). I'm looking for something that can take on both the Avatar and the Wraithlord.

I think what I'm getting from your responses is that MCs in small games can't really be handled by a single unit, so it might be best to combine the powers of say, a ccb wscythe lord and a group of lance crypteks.

I think your only cheap solution at 1000p is deathmarks or tesla immortals.
Perhaps a Stalker could be of use giving deathmarks or immortals twin-link, plus adding his 2S8 shots.
Truth is Wraithlords are a real pain for necrons even at greater point battles.

Lychguard are Str 5 base, hell chuck on war scythes to make a Str 7 power weapon. Sure the MC would kill acouple, unless attatched lord has mss scarabs so not only would the monster hit itself, the warscythes would carve through it.

Man I love wounding Trygons and Carnifexs on 3+'s

Deathmarks!

A unit of 10 can get in Rapid Fire range of their chosen prey easily enough, take 20 shots, hitting 13.33, wounding 11.11, meaning ~3 wounds on you typical 3+ save monsters, leaving Wraithlords dead, and Avatars and Nid stuff to be easily dealt with by anything else. Only problem with this is it only works against a single monster. Still even then, they can reliably get a wound or two thanks to sniper weapons.

Your best solution, is volume of fire from multiple units.

The Avatar is likely going to be fortuned, and has an Invul save, so Volume of fire is really the best way to deal with him. Don't kid yourself though, it will take a lot to get through that fortuned 3+/4++

The Wraithlord should be a bit easier to deal with, as it has no Invul, and fewer wounds than the Avatar. A few Eldritch Lance shots, even with cover should see him Go down.

Tesseriact labrynth works on MCs and all that needs is btb and your opponent to roll higher than hi MC has wounds left, so wounding it once when it has 4 wounds made your chance go from 4+ to 3+ etc Monolith, Doom scythe and stalker should be able to handle them

Monoliths and Doomscythes are fairly bad choices at dealing with MC. The Monolith is far too short ranged, and will be in the threat range of a MC very quickly. A Doomscythe is in Brightlance/EML range for a Wraithlord, which is not good. Combining Either of these options, with other volume of fire choices, would work. You really don't want that Wraithlord firing back at your Doomscythe though.

A Tesserect Labyrinth can work, but you don't want to be at the point where you have to use it.

Lychguard would be OK against the Avatar, but wouldn't be able to hurt a wraithlord

The Lychguard at Strength 5, can still wound the Wraithlord on 6's(Same as Bolters can still wound T7). Not a Good choice, regardless.

Lychguard are Str 5 base, hell chuck on war scythes to make a Str 7 power weapon. Sure the MC would kill acouple, unless attatched lord has mss scarabs so not only would the monster hit itself, the warscythes would carve through it.

Man I love wounding Trygons and Carnifexs on 3+'s

Warscythes are terrible options against most MCs.

These would get destroyed by a Fortuned/Guided Avatar. Lychguard need 5's to the Avatar, and are going second. With Fortune/Guide 3 Lychguard are going down before they even get to hit the Avatar.
I would never throw them against Trygons either, since you are likely loosing 4 of them before you even get a chance to strike against the Trygon.


Jy2 Summed it up perfectly in "Team Effort" which is how it should be for all codexes with dealing with MCs.

Mind. Shackle. Scarabs.

If you're worried about hunting big monsters, take this advice - Equip a destroyer lord with MSS and a warscythe (sempiternal weave if you have another 15 pts, so they survive small arms fire). Throw one (or two!) in a 'wraith assassin squad' that consists of 4 - 6 wraiths, with at least 2 having whip coils (i like 3 in my squads, flavor to taste). You now have a 305-400 point unit (550 with 2 d-lords) that will chew through just about anything in CC. Even at 1000 points I'd recommend trying a double d-lord list with wraiths vs any opponent. Throw in some immortals on foot and a couple annihilation barges for light armor suppression, and You have a solid list with a rock unit that outmatches many dedicated CC units. MSS will help ensure the MC swings at itself, but even if it does not you have a s7 power weapon and s6 rending attacks that will all strike before the MC has a chance to swing, and render it prettymuch a dead husk.

My 2c, backed up only by my solo playtesting vs 'nids with my necrons.

Sasori wrote:Your best solution, is volume of fire from multiple units.

The Avatar is likely going to be fortuned, and has an Invul save, so Volume of fire is really the best way to deal with him. Don't kid yourself though, it will take a lot to get through that fortuned 3+/4++

The Wraithlord should be a bit easier to deal with, as it has no Invul, and fewer wounds than the Avatar. A few Eldritch Lance shots, even with cover should see him Go down.

Tesseriact labrynth works on MCs and all that needs is btb and your opponent to roll higher than hi MC has wounds left, so wounding it once when it has 4 wounds made your chance go from 4+ to 3+ etc Monolith, Doom scythe and stalker should be able to handle them

Monoliths and Doomscythes are fairly bad choices at dealing with MC. The Monolith is far too short ranged, and will be in the threat range of a MC very quickly. A Doomscythe is in Brightlance/EML range for a Wraithlord, which is not good. Combining Either of these options, with other volume of fire choices, would work. You really don't want that Wraithlord firing back at your Doomscythe though.

A Tesserect Labyrinth can work, but you don't want to be at the point where you have to use it.

Lychguard would be OK against the Avatar, but wouldn't be able to hurt a wraithlord

The Lychguard at Strength 5, can still wound the Wraithlord on 6's(Same as Bolters can still wound T7). Not a Good choice, regardless.

Lychguard are Str 5 base, hell chuck on war scythes to make a Str 7 power weapon. Sure the MC would kill acouple, unless attatched lord has mss scarabs so not only would the monster hit itself, the warscythes would carve through it.

Man I love wounding Trygons and Carnifexs on 3+'s

Warscythes are terrible options against most MCs.

These would get destroyed by a Fortuned/Guided Avatar. Lychguard need 5's to the Avatar, and are going second. With Fortune/Guide 3 Lychguard are going down before they even get to hit the Avatar.
I would never throw them against Trygons either, since you are likely loosing 4 of them before you even get a chance to strike against the Trygon.


Jy2 Summed it up perfectly in "Team Effort" which is how it should be for all codexes with dealing with MCs.

The more I think about it, the more I don't like the warscythe option for LG. I really want to like it, but the LG just NEED that shield.

5 LG+Lord w/WS/MSS could do quite well against most MS. A normal Trygon will fail his leadership test about 70% of the time, and the best of them will fail it about 50% of the time. On the charge, assuming 2 dead LG before they strike (the MSS failed), against T6 you should expect about 2.5 wounds. Not to shabby.

Against T7 1.5 Wounds, and against T8 1.25. So manageable, and with RP a fight you can probably win. And if the MSS goes off, they dead.

Repeat with me, I will use my superior firepower to shoot them down. Deathmarks are also a really great option for taking down a MC.

Dr. Temujin wrote:I can see the possibility of a Despair Cryptek attached to Deathmarks

I cannot stress the ease of this solution enough. There's even an entire thread just dedicated to how unfair it is to use Deathmarks to kill a Gargantuan creature in Apoc games. A squad of 7x Deathmarks will shoot 14 times, hitting 11.66 times, wounding 9.71 times. Even with a 4+ save, that's still 4.86 wounds to the MC. Not a bad trade coming from a 133 point squad. And even if they do get killed by return shooting (not likely without fire concentration on them), then your opponent spent his time shooting at a unit that has already fulfilled its Deathmarky destiny. And that means shooting not directed at your units that still have more general functions. Also:

tetrisphreak wrote:Mind. Shackle. Scarabs.

Even at Ld 10, the Mindshackle Scarabs have a 50% chance of success.

tetrisphreak wrote:Mind. Shackle. Scarabs.

If you're worried about hunting big monsters, take this advice - Equip a destroyer lord with MSS and a warscythe (sempiternal weave if you have another 15 pts, so they survive small arms fire). Throw one (or two!) in a 'wraith assassin squad' that consists of 4 - 6 wraiths, with at least 2 having whip coils (i like 3 in my squads, flavor to taste). You now have a 305-400 point unit (550 with 2 d-lords) that will chew through just about anything in CC. Even at 1000 points I'd recommend trying a double d-lord list with wraiths vs any opponent. Throw in some immortals on foot and a couple annihilation barges for light armor suppression, and You have a solid list with a rock unit that outmatches many dedicated CC units. MSS will help ensure the MC swings at itself, but even if it does not you have a s7 power weapon and s6 rending attacks that will all strike before the MC has a chance to swing, and render it prettymuch a dead husk.

My 2c, backed up only by my solo playtesting vs 'nids with my necrons.

Definitely could be viable. Problem is, I have none of those models, and it would be quite expensive trying to acquire them. I would definitely like to try it sometime though!

Incidentally, to Wraiths get an extra attack from bringing a Particle pistol thingy?

azazel the cat wrote:

Dr. Temujin wrote:I can see the possibility of a Despair Cryptek attached to Deathmarks

I cannot stress the ease of this solution enough. There's even an entire thread just dedicated to how unfair it is to use Deathmarks to kill a Gargantuan creature in Apoc games. A squad of 7x Deathmarks will shoot 14 times, hitting 11.66 times, wounding 9.71 times. Even with a 4+ save, that's still 4.86 wounds to the MC. Not a bad trade coming from a 133 point squad. And even if they do get killed by return shooting (not likely without fire concentration on them), then your opponent spent his time shooting at a unit that has already fulfilled its Deathmarky destiny. And that means shooting not directed at your units that still have more general functions. Also:

tetrisphreak wrote:Mind. Shackle. Scarabs.

Even at Ld 10, the Mindshackle Scarabs have a 50% chance of success.

Yeah I'm thinking that a squad of Deathmarks will be my best bet, and if I bring along a lord, MS scarabs for that 50% chance of nearly automatically winning that round of combat.

Can a Despair cryptek deep strike with a squad of Deathmarks?

Another good one I'm surprised no one has mentioned is a combo of Wraiths with whip coil and C'tan with Time's arrow. at I1 he's probably going to fail that initiative test.

Throwing lords into your squads make them feel a lot safer and will make your opponent think twice about throwing his expensive critter away, but it does hurt a turn of shooting either way, and any troops in the charged squad will have a hard time making their points if they can't shoot at infantry or stun lock tanks for too long.

Having 2 characters in a squad make it feel really safe outside of big confrontations, while hopefully adding a bit of power to the unit outside of being assault nannies (charging from a ark, Rez orb, phaeron, cryptek toys). It is going to be tricky to make it not seem like a waste, but it's possible.
Scarabs and scythes are great for this. I often just think of scarabs as an assault invulnerable save for your whole squad against the expensive hidden cc weapon. A time cryptek also really helps in these situations, while pulling some weight out of cc.

You'll find that mc eldar are less mobile but also have to do more picking and choosing between anti av and high volume strength six shots. You can probably capitalize on the mobility by making sure the mc runs into something less squishy (wraiths are really good at being where they are needed or your squad with nannies, or just something other than your big fire base. You can also just kite back with your amount of access to high strength assault 36 or 24 firepower that moves 6 to 12 inches every turn and may well have some whacky deepstrike rules. Also lances in a barge will really frustrate an opponent that has to run after it, break its shields, pop it and then get into close combat with the jerks firing at him while they run away especially when they've invested so many points into tough close combat bodies and have relatively less for effective anti sme or ranged armor stoping power. Heck you can even use terrain tricks to avoid a big close combat points sink for as long as you can, while whittling away at your enemy's objective holders from a distance.

Deathmarks are all that's been said here, but sadly it seems they cannot be deep struck if they contain a cryptek. One raw trick with them is that the mark ability triggers on deployment, so if you can find ways to do that more than once, you can cheesily put a lot of little counters beside your opponent's units.

Crypteks and lords are really expensive, so are most gauss cannons (except barges!) but they can be quite worth it if you don't just use them as a blind counter and try to get some secondary use out of them, or try to fill out your army with units that may not be decidedly built for anti mc, but have some exploitable advantages against them that works with what else you are doing on the table.

Every turn that avatar isn't swinging or driving your guys into another mc or harliquin troupe your opponent will be clenching.

Also heavy destroyers can be deep struck now or fit into a night scythe oddly enough to help with the angles and stay away from a static fire base

King Pariah wrote:Another good one I'm surprised no one has mentioned is a combo of Wraiths with whip coil and C'tan with Time's arrow. at I1 he's probably going to fail that initiative test.

I think the rule says that he "strikes at Initiative 1". I believe the test is taken with the unmodified value.

azazel the cat wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Another good one I'm surprised no one has mentioned is a combo of Wraiths with whip coil and C'tan with Time's arrow. at I1 he's probably going to fail that initiative test.

I think the rule says that he "strikes at Initiative 1". I believe the test is taken with the unmodified value.

Nope, read it again. It makes models in base count their initiative as 1. also characteristic tests are taken on the current value, the only exception being when breaking from combat (and that is a roll-off, not a characteristic test).

one more thing - if characteristic tests were always taken on unmodified stats weaken resolve would not be very powerful, would it?

Yup, you're right, that works just fine. That, sir, is one mean combo. Expensive, though.

Expensive though it may be, it's satisfying to single out a thunderwolf lord and say "Roll a 1 or say goodbye to your uber SC"

mind shackle scarabs on either an overlord or regular lord in a squad or warriors or immortals work with me. Sometimes i throw a second lord figure in the squad (i.e. overlord and lord) so that against ld 10 i should almost always my that character or mc fail the test and attack themselves.

I''ve wanted to use wraiths with destroyer lord, however my friends started new armies and can only do 1k points atm.

lance crypteks are okay at taking out mc. when there are no vehicles to gun down

heavy destroyers only get a turn or two of shooting but should get a wound or two with a three man unit (unless you roll like me...terrible)

anhilation barge is alright, the volume of shots will score a wound or two on most mc's

monoliths and doomsday arks should not be used as anti-mc unless there is no better targets

comand barge seems like it would work nice(also great vs. vehicles) but in all my games is shot down turn one before i can do anything...sad :(

Haven't used deathmarks yet but like a broken record im going to say they are hit or miss. I think they could take 2-3 wounds off of most mcs, so it all comes down to how your dice land.



Might sound funny but I believe that mc's that are made for assault should be beat in assault. i.e. a carnifex with 2 scything talons is moving foward WHY BOTHER SHOOTING IT (as long as no bio plasma) since it will fail mind shackle scarabs majority of the time. The same goes for trygons and other cc monsters, although ld 10 can sometimes pull through and put a damper on my mood.

to sum this up EVERYSINGLE LORD/OVERLORD SHOULD HAVE MIND SHACKLE SCARABS and warscythe

How well would this list work as a TAC (well, mostly BA, Eldar, DA, Orks, and Tau) list? Will it have the ability to take out the MCs?

HQ:
145 - Destroyer Lord w/ mind shackle scarabs

Troops:
170 - 10 Tesla Immortals

170 - 10 Gauss/Tesla Immortals

Fast:
250 - 6 Wraiths, 2 w/ whip coils, 1 w/ particle caster, 1 w/ whip coils and particle caster

Heavy:
90 Annihilation Barge

Total = 820

You could either add on another immortal squad, a Doomsday Ark, add another couple of Annihilation Barges or w/e.

What do you think?

You can't have a Wraith carry two pieces of wargear. Just use 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Caster, 1x Transdimenional Beamer and 1x vanilla. Then put in something that can hurt a tank at range.

Might sound funny but I believe that mc's that are made for assault should be beat in assault. i.e. a carnifex with 2 scything talons is moving foward WHY BOTHER SHOOTING IT (as long as no bio plasma) since it will fail mind shackle scarabs majority of the time. The same goes for trygons and other cc monsters, although ld 10 can sometimes pull through and put a damper on my mood.

Ok, this is just silly. Why do you want to get something that Excells at CC, into cc range with you. If that Trygon Prime or Hive Tyrant Passes his MSS Test, your unit is about to get swept.

I love Mind Shackle Scarabs, it is a fantastic piece of wargear. It helps the issue with most of our units being weak in CC. That being said you still want to avoid CC if at all possible, if the MSS roll fails you are likely in big trouble.

You can't have a Wraith carry two pieces of wargear. Just use 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Caster, 1x Transdimenional Beamer and 1x vanilla. Then put in something that can hurt a tank at range.

This is 100% correct. I'd never take a Transdimensional beamer though, as it's a heavy weapon.

Sasori wrote:Ok, this is just silly. Why do you want to get something that Excells at CC, into cc range with you. If that Trygon Prime or Hive Tyrant Passes his MSS Test, your unit is about to get swept.

Silly like a fox!

Sasori wrote:This is 100% correct. I'd never take a Transdimensional beamer though, as it's a heavy weapon.

I would never use a Transdimensional Beamer, as its a piece of junk. I would, however, take it expressly for the purpose of wound allocation.

Deathmarks Should be good at dealing with Monstrous Creatures, elect the creature to be your target, and your hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's, with rending. 5 - 10 Deathmarks should work quite well.

Tesseract Labyrinths are always a good option, but after a salvo from an Anhillation Barge ideally.

azazel the cat wrote:You can't have a Wraith carry two pieces of wargear. Just use 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Caster, 1x Transdimenional Beamer and 1x vanilla. Then put in something that can hurt a tank at range.

Oh, true. In that case I'd just take off the particle caster, and have another 5 points spare. Still not sure what I'd spend that 185 points on though.

Tension wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:You can't have a Wraith carry two pieces of wargear. Just use 3x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Caster, 1x Transdimenional Beamer and 1x vanilla. Then put in something that can hurt a tank at range.

Oh, true. In that case I'd just take off the particle caster, and have another 5 points spare. Still not sure what I'd spend that 185 points on though.

Nemesor Zandrekh!

I was eying up a Doomsday Ark myself, but I'm not exactly sure what the list needs, so I'm not sure.