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I started up WH40k in my group of friends around juneish. I've managed to draw in about 4 regular players and a few people who will use my armies from time to time to play. With none of those friends do we use the rule that you need to declare a shot first and then check the range. To be honest, it doesn't seem to add much except to cripple new people who aren't as good at eyeing distances. I don't want to convince someone to play a game then slaughter them because I know what 12" looks like and they don't. That's not skill or anything fun.

But I do understand it's a part of the rules. I've yet to play at a gamestore so I have no idea how the rule is thought of.

I am hoping this rule changes in 6th ed 40k. If you both agree you can add or remove any rules you want. But strictly speaking as 5th ed rules are you must declare than measure. One of the things I really like about 8th ed fantasy is you can measure anytime anwhere for no reason to know.

No you're not allowed to measure. It's against the rules.
Deciding whether to rapid fire, for example...go for a gaurenteed one shot, or chance it for 2. Depends if you're within 12".
Or the Demolisher cannon with its 24 inch range. Go for the rhino which is definitely in range, or chance it for the terminators that may not be.

Agreed, it adds to the strategic element, and tbh they will get used to eyeing it soon enough.

runmymouth wrote:I am hoping this rule changes in 6th ed 40k. If you both agree you can add or remove any rules you want. But strictly speaking as 5th ed rules are you must declare than measure. One of the things I really like about 8th ed fantasy is you can measure anytime anwhere for no reason to know.

Is that true? I've recently started playing Fantasy so this would interest me.

Most wargames allow "pre-measuring" however it is against the rules in 40K.

Of course you can house rule it. Just make sure people know it is a house rule not the official rule, or they are likely to have trouble when they play against someone else.

I know it's the rule, but what does it add besides a barrier for new people? (And I imagine that WH40k has some problems attracting fresh blood as it is)

Joey - what do you mean by "deciding" to rapid fire?

It isnt a choice you can make; you will always fire two shots at less than 12", 1 at over 12" if you stood still.

Joey wrote:Deciding whether to rapid fire, for example...go for a gaurenteed one shot, or chance it for 2. Depends if you're within 12".

There is no 'decision' when it comes to rapid fire weapons. Your range determines how many shots you get, not some sort of declaration on your part.

I guess I don't see how its a barrier. The 400 dollars for an army sure but following the rules? not so much..

Not being able to pre-measure is one of the dumbest things in 40K. Your telling me that with all the advanced optics/HUD's/etc that should be present Space Marines can't figure out how far away something is?

8th ed. WHFB lets you pre-measure everything and it is a better game for it.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Agreed, it adds to the strategic element, and tbh they will get used to eyeing it soon enough.

Not strategic, just that the player how played more or has a better eye or was nerd enough to train it, has an advantage.

Maybe it's my lack of experience with other gaming systems, but I've never understood what people have against not being allowed to pre-measure.

I guess I just like the gamble of taking shots that you may not be in range for on a high value target than just playing it safe and shooting what's closest. Granted you get fairly good at judging distances after a while (although I guess some people are far better than other, irrelevant of experience) but it's still a gamble, without it far too many decisions of who to fire at would basically be made for you.

Joey wrote:

runmymouth wrote:I am hoping this rule changes in 6th ed 40k. If you both agree you can add or remove any rules you want. But strictly speaking as 5th ed rules are you must declare than measure. One of the things I really like about 8th ed fantasy is you can measure anytime anwhere for no reason to know.

Is that true? I've recently started playing Fantasy so this would interest me.

Yes it is true. Not sure which page as I don't have my rulebook with me but it is fairly early on. It was big news when 8th came out because everyone talked about it. I really do prefer that to 5th ed's if you can't eyeball it then you don't deserve the advantage.

Ghaz wrote:

Joey wrote:Deciding whether to rapid fire, for example...go for a gaurenteed one shot, or chance it for 2. Depends if you're within 12".

There is no 'decision' when it comes to rapid fire weapons. Your range determines how many shots you get, not some sort of declaration on your part.

The 'decision' comes into play around movement. Do you attempt to get within 12" for the 2 shots, or do you take the guaranteed 1 if you sit where you are? If you're at about 18" and aren't exactly sure how far it is, it is quite the decision. Moving up might leave some of the unit unable to rapid fire as you might not get the whole unit within 12", even if some of it will clearly make it.

No, premeasuring is cheating. I've never liked it in any game, and I prefer the element of chance and required experience you get from measuring after declaring a shot or charge.

wib wrote:Maybe it's my lack of experience with other gaming systems, but I've never understood what people have against not being allowed to pre-measure.

I don't get it either. If both players have exactly same threat assault radius and can measure every time they want this can lead to boring stalemates.
And how is ability to accurately estimate distance not a skill of some sort?

The strategy is to move the units the correct distance away, to have the right unit at the right place, to force the opponent into sub optimum positions. There is plenty of strategy without measuring being an advantage. I can also keep math with how far you moved, how far away from your deployment edge you deployed. Just because someone else can't doesn't mean that they should suck at trying to fire shots from not playing a lot.

I never pre measure, If you want you can always fire a heavy weapon from another squad and use that to gauge the range of the rest of your guys.

Measure after. Which really annoys 'That Guy' who normally plays Fantasy, as he sometimes measures before, thus invallidating his shots.

Small, Far Away wrote:Measure after. Which really annoys 'That Guy' who normally plays Fantasy, as he sometimes measures before, thus invallidating his shots.

Outside of a tournament environment, I can see saying "You measure after you declare, you can't fire with that squad now" being particularly dickish. I found it difficult to adjust back to 40k after a stint of Fantasy, and you've got to make allowances; even veterans of multiple editions from both systems can't make a smooth, perfect transition.

If it starts to take the piss (after many games it is still being done) then start poking him/her about it, but if you start throwing the book at everything in someone's first 40k game for, say, about a year or so, then you're just going to look like a bit of an hard-arse.

People who have played 40k all their lives still forget to run a unit, or forget to Guide before starting movement, and people still let them right their mistake outside of competative environments, why not someone who has just come from a system where charges are random, you can freely premeasure, magical powers have their own seperate phase et cetera?

I'm not accusing you of doing this, so don't take it that way, but i'm just saying that it isn't the most sporting way of playing in friendly environments.

If someone whips out the tape measure and uses it he has officially shot with that unit.

Fantasy flows a great deal faster with premeasuring; I find 40k games take longer as players hem and haw over if they're in range or not of shooting or charging because all those orcs mysteriously run out of Waagh! if they're 1/2 an inch short of what they're charging....

Avatar 720 wrote:

Small, Far Away wrote:Measure after. Which really annoys 'That Guy' who normally plays Fantasy, as he sometimes measures before, thus invallidating his shots.

Outside of a tournament environment, I can see saying "You measure after you declare, you can't fire with that squad now" being particularly dickish. I found it difficult to adjust back to 40k after a stint of Fantasy, and you've got to make allowances; even veterans of multiple editions from both systems can't make a smooth, perfect transition.

If it starts to take the piss (after many games it is still being done) then start poking him/her about it, but if you start throwing the book at everything in someone's first 40k game for, say, about a year or so, then you're just going to look like a bit of an hard-arse.

People who have played 40k all their lives still forget to run a unit, or forget to Guide before starting movement, and people still let them right their mistake outside of competative environments, why not someone who has just come from a system where charges are random, you can freely premeasure, magical powers have their own seperate phase et cetera?

I'm not accusing you of doing this, so don't take it that way, but i'm just saying that it isn't the most sporting way of playing in friendly environments.

This.

I forget things all the time (for example in my last game of Warmachine I forgot to use the Old Witch's feat two turns in a row cue much amusement from my opponent and passers by as I start referring to her as the "senile old bat!" ). I mix up things from editions all the time, made even worse when you play multiple games.

I had a regular opponent who played IG that seemed to ALWAYS measure range, then place the Blast Marker. I told him every time. It's place the marker then measure to see if you're in range. eventually after what seemed like an eternity it did sink in.

I prefer being able to measure at any time, which is why I prefer playing fantasy right now. Hopefully the rule will change for 6th 40k.

Hunter13 wrote:I prefer being able to measure at any time, which is why I prefer playing fantasy right now. Hopefully the rule will change for 6th 40k.

It would be an awful change for a shooting-centric game. I can't recall many games I've played that allowed premeasuring in any capacity whatsoever, because it's an awful rule. The hemming and hawing over whether or not to take a shot or what have you is such an intrinsic part of gaming, and introduces an element of uncertainty that requires you to think tactically. You can take the risk of hitting that one unit just on the cusp of where your range might be, or you can take the safer shot at a closer unit and so on. Fantasy is a bit more about moving and charging than shooting, so it works better there, but it does not belong in 40k outside of a special unit here and there.

Heh, a person I play against got on my ass hardcore for this, so I know it is against the rules to measure before firing, so as imperial guard having a single mortar team is nice, you can find a range without actually wasting anything of importance

After, they haven't taken the skill out of eyeing measurements yet only reduced slightly with the change to the guess weapons for 5th.

You can't premeasure.

It was definitely hard when i started playing five years ago and being younger I wasn't much for following rules. But now I see it as a bit of a challenge at longer ranges; although for standard ranges you'll get used to judging distance.