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So I built up a Grey Knights army for Draigowing wanted a 2,000 pts list. And i was going to use my spare space marine terminators to flesh out the list with converted GK termies.
However found a good last minute deal and nagged another box of GK termies and 2 dreadknights, so I decided I still wanted to do something with the spare terminators i have
And suddenly "Deathwing" came to mind.

I want to build a competitive Deathwing army list from the Dark Angels codex. But since I know very little about dark angels except that they have terminators as troops, I thought i'd ask you guys to share your knowledge and enlighten a potential new member to the traitor hunting club.

My question is simple...How do you play Dark Angels competitive? What are the key units to use and why?
also would love to know is Deathwing worth it?
what are good example deathwing army list builds between 1,000 to 2,000 pts?

I have 18 spare terminators with options for 2 chainfist, 2 assault cannons, 2 heavy flamers the rest are a bunch of power fist and storm bolter arms.
I also have 20 spare bolter marines and 1 spare terminator chaplain, all of which I could toss into a DA dedicated army if they would fit well.

Have at it fellas...

Your spare parts are a little off :(, DA chaplains can be cool but I tend not to include them.

Deathwing is awesome It is well worth it, it is very much different to other armies and is quicker and easier to transport. Maybe as GK player you will not feel the benefit.

Deathwing relies on only showing the enemy hard targets(apart from three typhoons) and then slowly marching/driving your entire army to where you will need them by the end of the game whilst shooting.
I think I need to explain this, you have will have very few models you can not afford to have your army divided or some off the battlefield. That is deathwing assault is not usually viable because it separates your army and the enemy can pick you off.
The only other way to make them mobile would be 'raiders. A 'raider dramatically reduces your firepower, your number of models whilst not going so much faster than relentless termies and in essence they separate your army again. You will need three heavy choices so you can not afford the space for the raider anyway.

Termies are obviously the key element. Termies are great but they are not everything. Have too many you will die by not being killy enough, being out manoeuvred and generally being played to the termies weaknesses.
I have found it is nearly always best to aim for about/nearest to half your points on termies.
You lack models/points/cheap options and are not very mobile, ergo you need all units to have CMLs. It is cheap and the only ranged option available.
Now if you shoot at a unit you choose which target the CMLs want, then it is luck more than judgement if a stormbolter is in range or will have an effect. So no stormbolters please.
Having only SS/TH leaves you a little vulnerable in cc, so I would go 3TH/SS and 2LC. Maybe to reinstate the bolter, you might find a chainfist may suit you in case you face av14.

Belial is usually double LC or TH/SS. I can see advantages in both, however none in the third way. The apoth and banner are worth taking.

3 Typhoons are too cheap not to take. I can never decide on MM or heavy bolter, my typhoons always stay out of range to use their MM :(

Now comes the really subjective part what support do you want to give them. Preds, vindis, shooty dreads fit in the hard armour and give a nice blend of firepower. Scouts could be good. Some like bikes but they will be alone and be targeted by all the non ap2 weapons and short ranged weapons, also their main advantage would be to use the DWA which I usually do not use to keep my troops together, strong and happy.

130 Belial 55 for the command squad stuff
235 2SS/TH 2LC 1SS/TH+CML
235 2SS/TH 2LC 1SS/TH+CML
210 3 typhoons
135 dread with plasma cannon
For 130

Add
235 deathwing
135 dread with plasma cannon
130 lascannon,autocannon pred
for 1500

Add
235 deathwing
130 lascannon,autocannon pred
135 dread with plasma cannon
for 2000

Note I use dreads for support as the maths was better Make you own choice of support
Hope this is clear and helpful to you

Meh why so much only CC oriented 2k lists. I don't have my list up with me but I know at 2k points I have some shooty, some assaulty termies.

1 LRC
1 LR
1 Vindicator
3 Squads of Termies, with assault cannons, 1 Th/SH, 3 with bolters and power fists
1 Squads of Termies, 2 SS/TH, 3 LC,
1 Squad of Termies, 3 SS/TH, 1 LC, 1 with banner to give +1 attacks and LC
Belial. I dont remember if i squeeze in chain fists or if I have to swap up a weapon. It has been a while since I built a tourney list with Deathwing.

I read somewhere that the assault cannon was hands down THE best ranged option for deathwing both outperforming the heavy flamer and the CML.

Seems to be true from my general knowledge of 40k a few CML just aren't going to do much of anything not enough shots. Even tho it's cheap, specially with that recommended all out melee build, those termies may be better off running

seems like a terrible idea to have decked out assault terminators and only using them to fire off an unreliable missile launcher. That's a waste of a 200+ pt unit it's a bigger point sink than a regular land raider

Take Belial and give him a squad of assault termies (I make them all LC, maybe belial with TH/SS). Give the squad the apoth and banner upgrade. I would put this squad in a LRC if you have the points.

I like running double vindicator and a LRC for my heavy support, if I have the points, and 3x LandSpeeders with CML and HB/MM

For your terminators, the loadout is really up to you, But I prefer assault terminators, all with CMLs.

I've seen many builds, but the most effective IMO is:

- 2x TH/SS, 1x LC, 1x Chainfist, 1x TH./SS/CML. This gives you range AT punch, a CC response thats reliable against things like Dreads, and survivablility
- Typhoons (super cheap)
- Lots of termi squads
- Belial

I've also read some reps where peeps run a couple Min sized ravenwing squads for contesting/melta. Either way, good stuff!

Thanks everyone for your input it's been very educational

Several ways you can do it really. Certainly all the aforementioned work pretty well.

I like Cyclones as the heavy option -- cheap and powerful and versatile. But if I have 5+ termie squads, I'll consider including 1-2 assault cannons, and if I used Land Raiders I'd throw in the occasional flamer too.

Either 2 or 5 storm shields per 5-man squad. In an assault cannon squad I'll put 2 storm shields, just, so as to have a bunch of storm bolters. Most squads will have 5 storm shields though.

Extra stuff, you almost certainly want the aforementioned cheap land speeders; you can also add devastators, Ravenwing, or even tactical marines (benefiting from Belial's army-wide Leadership 10) if you like. But you can't really go wrong with Belial + as many Thunder Hammers and Cyclones as you can fit on as many terminators as you own, as the basis for the army.

After you fill out your termies to your hearts content, what's considered to be the best in the fire support role?

Dok wrote:After you fill out your termies to your hearts content, what's considered to be the best in the fire support role?

Typhoons; awesomely cheap and powerful!

You should also ask about positioning of deathwing on the battlefield as well as list building, then you are used to not caring about cover and thinking about a series of good shooting positions 6'' apart.

Akaiyou wrote:I read somewhere that the assault cannon was hands down THE best ranged option for deathwing both outperforming the heavy flamer and the CML.

Seems to be true from my general knowledge of 40k a few CML just aren't going to do much of anything not enough shots. Even tho it's cheap, specially with that recommended all out melee build, those termies may be better off running

seems like a terrible idea to have decked out assault terminators and only using them to fire off an unreliable missile launcher. That's a waste of a 200+ pt unit it's a bigger point sink than a regular land raider

Maybe that was before the FAQ. You should read the FAQ.

If the enemy gets within 24'' you will eventually slice them up in cc, what happens if the stay beyond that?
The range is really important as you will be mostly footslogging.
CMLs can not do everything and are a heap of points, it is true, but that is why you need to really limit the number of squads and take the best fire support possible.
Also CMLs can become 2+/3++ monsters, 3++ on the model and fearless has made a 1 man squad still mostly functional and even scoring.

Taking assault weapons is distracting, they can beat people in cc if you can arrange for it to happen or more importantly if the enemy thinks he can take you in a fight, the heavy weapons still make them good shooting units and a few bolter shots that you would be missing are not game changers.

5x TH/SS + CML = Win.

Seriously, pure Hammernators with CML is the strongest build for Deathwing.

As for support, your best bet is to either go Dualwing with Sammael, Ravenwing Bikes, and MM/HF speeders to get into your oppoents face quick, via teleport homered deathwing assault, or to stick with Typhoons and pepper your opponent with obscene amounts of Missiles from both your troops and fast attack support. Your choice depends on your playstyle, both are effective at what they do.

Unforutantely, Preds (and other heavy choices) do not bring as much in the way of synergy as either Typhoons or Ravenwing/Dualwing. LRs can work, but for fewer points, you can just get another DW squad which will do you far more good.

Alerian wrote:5x TH/SS + CML = Win.

Seriously, pure Hammernators with CML is the strongest build for Deathwing.

As for support, your best bet is to either go Dualwing with Sammael, Ravenwing Bikes, and MM/HF speeders to get into your oppoents face quick, via teleport homered deathwing assault, or to stick with Typhoons and pepper your opponent with obscene amounts of Missiles from both your troops and fast attack support. Your choice depends on your playstyle, both are effective at what they do.

Unforutantely, Preds (and other heavy choices) do not bring as much in the way of synergy as either Typhoons or Ravenwing/Dualwing. LRs can work, but for fewer points, you can just get another DW squad which will do you far more good.

I agree 100% with this.

Using stormbolter terminators is just underwhelming. Yes, they will do a few wounds, but the 5+ inv is just painful when fighting HtH.

My current set up

Belial with LC
CML w/ LC, Sgt w/ TH/SS, LC, Apothecary w/ TH/SS, Standard w/ TH/SS
CML w/ TH/SS, x3 TH/SS, LC
CML w/ TH/SS, x3 TH/SS, LC
CML w/ TH/SS, x3 TH/SS, LC
CML w/ TH/SS, x3 TH/SS, LC
CML w/ TH/SS, x3 TH/SS, LC
Assault Cannon and Chainfist, SB/CF, x3 TH/SS

1850

I mess around with x3 Vindicators, x3 Typhoons, or Ezeikel. Would like to get 3 RW bikes in list for accurate deepstriking.

I think that pure TH/SS (plus Cyclone) in every squad will get you in trouble against a well-run Kan wall list (9 Killa Kans, Kustom Force Field, loads of footslogging Shoota Boyz), or any other list that can make you make enormous numbers of 2+ saves in either shooting or CC. One 30-boy mob is killing around 1 terminator in shooting then a further 3 in close combat before you get to strike, if they get the charge (and you have no way of ensuring you get the charge if you have no transport).

5 x TH/SS (plus Cyclone) is still very powerful, and I'll always take at least 1-2 squads like that. I'm not convinced it needs to be every squad though. Either sprinkle in some LCs or some storm bolters in at least some squads.

Alerian wrote:Unforutantely, Preds (and other heavy choices) do not bring as much in the way of synergy as either Typhoons or Ravenwing/Dualwing. LRs can work, but for fewer points, you can just get another DW squad which will do you far more good.

What do you mean by synergy? I am not sure I understand

Speed wise, not really as they can race ahead. Where as tanks work more closely with the termies.
Adding the complete range of shooting attacks, maybe yes with meltas but then that doesn't add to the missiles it adds a whole new attack. Where as dreads, preds and vindis all have fun weapons.
Then ap2 target saturation doesn't work so well either compared to more hard tanks to go with the hard termies.

MFletch wrote:You should also ask about positioning of deathwing on the battlefield as well as list building, then you are used to not caring about cover and thinking about a series of good shooting positions 6'' apart.

Akaiyou wrote:I read somewhere that the assault cannon was hands down THE best ranged option for deathwing both outperforming the heavy flamer and the CML.

Seems to be true from my general knowledge of 40k a few CML just aren't going to do much of anything not enough shots. Even tho it's cheap, specially with that recommended all out melee build, those termies may be better off running

seems like a terrible idea to have decked out assault terminators and only using them to fire off an unreliable missile launcher. That's a waste of a 200+ pt unit it's a bigger point sink than a regular land raider

Maybe that was before the FAQ. You should read the FAQ.

If the enemy gets within 24'' you will eventually slice them up in cc, what happens if the stay beyond that?
The range is really important as you will be mostly footslogging.
CMLs can not do everything and are a heap of points, it is true, but that is why you need to really limit the number of squads and take the best fire support possible.
Also CMLs can become 2+/3++ monsters, 3++ on the model and fearless has made a 1 man squad still mostly functional and even scoring.

Taking assault weapons is distracting, they can beat people in cc if you can arrange for it to happen or more importantly if the enemy thinks he can take you in a fight, the heavy weapons still make them good shooting units and a few bolter shots that you would be missing are not game changers.

Rulebook FAQ or DA FAQ?

At smaller points levels, say 1500 it's best to max out how many squads you take - 5 x 5 man squads and 3 Land Speeders. But that's still a low model count and survivability is of paramount importance so for me, it's TH/SS all the way with the obligatory cyclone missile launcher thrown in there. With Kraks hitting on 3's and wounding on (most likely) 2's an each squad getting two of those shots, you can consistently chip away at units from 48". Transports are soft targets, too.

Going up to 2K, you can add in 3 Ven Dreads with plasma cannons and give one of your squads the apothecary and banner upgrades from Belial. So, between the non terminator units in your force you get low AP stuff, anti tank/AV14 and AP2 blasts and a good amount of it. The TH/SS termies are powerful in CC and have very good long ranged shooting - including frags which can certainly help thin out things like hordes.

But the terminator squads are the main part of your force and you need them to be capable of fighting and holding objectives. You need them to be able to survive. That's why for me, the TH/SS with a cyclone missile launcher is the best as it's most survivable and has the best range. You just need to support them with the right units where they are weak.

Ugh 25 TH/SS is not the way to go about taking on enemy armies. It would be different if they were 10 man strong but there are several armies out there that can eat 4-5 terminators in combat before you get to swing. For those armies you need to be able to shoot the crap out of them and stay away. I don't think all TH/SH is the way to go for that. If you want to run 2 squads of them I wouldn't fault you for that but overall it's not ideal imo.

It really depends on who you play regularly - I need the 3+ invul saves so I have to take as many as I can get.

runmymouth wrote:Ugh 25 TH/SS is not the way to go about taking on enemy armies. It would be different if they were 10 man strong but there are several armies out there that can eat 4-5 terminators in combat before you get to swing. For those armies you need to be able to shoot the crap out of them and stay away. I don't think all TH/SH is the way to go for that. If you want to run 2 squads of them I wouldn't fault you for that but overall it's not ideal imo.

No; they'll eat you before you swing if they don't have TH/SS. Seriously, a lot of armies have issues removing 1 unit of Assault Termis from the board.... but 30+, all scoring, with tons of missiles? Its awesome, and I'm on board with pure TH/SS. Honestly, maybe 1 LC isn't the way to go, all you'll do is soften up a target and still take the PF to the head... going all TH's still gives you heavy hitting power and durability. Can't do it like BA where you can have I5 claws on the charge!

I often wonder if many who respond offer opinion from experience or preach via theory.

Deathwing squads can not be greater than 5, with exception of added IC's. TH/SS give 2+/3++, any other set up is 2+/5++
It's all about survival for as long as possible.

Obviously, vs Orks you're not going to want to be on top of 30 boyz. Shoot at range and soften them up. 6 CML and 3 typhoons will make them hurt.

Against dedicated HtH opponents... Grey Knight termies, BA assault squads, Dreads, Grey Hunters, etc. you will be glad you have the TH/SS.

Want to shoot? go with Double wing and add some RW bike squads. TL bolters will kill more than SB via hitting more often.

You need to play Deathwing differently based on the opponent on table.

A good Kan wall army will take more than 6 CML and 3 typhoons to hurt. Bear in mind that the whole enemy army is getting a 4+ cover save thanks to the KFF (the Kans directly, and the Boyz because they're behind the Kans). CMLs do hurt both Kans and Boyz, but there are just too many of the enemies for you to reliably take out both Kans and Boyz before they get to you, if that's all you're relying on, even in Spearhead. (And, yes, I've been playing various configurations of Deathwing-heavy army both in friendly games and tournaments, certainly since the FAQ update and to a lesser extent before.)

Ian Sturrock wrote:A good Kan wall army will take more than 6 CML and 3 typhoons to hurt. Bear in mind that the whole enemy army is getting a 4+ cover save thanks to the KFF (the Kans directly, and the Boyz because they're behind the Kans). CMLs do hurt both Kans and Boyz, but there are just too many of the enemies for you to reliably take out both Kans and Boyz before they get to you, if that's all you're relying on, even in Spearhead. (And, yes, I've been playing various configurations of Deathwing-heavy army both in friendly games and tournaments, certainly since the FAQ update and to a lesser extent before.)

Let me prerface by saying that I own and have ran both DW and Kanwall in tournies, so this is coming from experience with both lists, both playing them and against them. If you are taking on Kanwall, you still want TH/SS termies with CML.

First, Kanwall is tough for alot of armies, so no need trying to bring them up as the end all-be all for DW to have a hard time with. Many armies have trouble killing 11 walkers and 68-90 boys...especially backed up by lootas.

Second, 18 S8 shots a turn is quite a bit of firepower going into Kans; it will all come down to how much luck the Ork player is having making his 4+ cover saves. Also, 18 small blasts can put a bit of hurt on boys.

Third, in CC, TH/SS Termies eat Kans for breakfast. The boys however can drown the termies in bodies. Honestly, whn I use my DW against Kanwall (sometimes letting buddies use my own kanwall against me), I ignore the Kans with my shooting and just start pumping 18 small blasts a turn into boys. That way, by the time my Hammernators are engaged with the Kans in CC (which they will crush: 6 termis squads > 3 Kan squads), there are not enough boys left to be enough of a counter assault threat....of course this is all stll dependant on the Ork players luck at rolling 4+ cover saves vs, blasts.

Fourth,,,,in case I didn't mention it before. Kanwall is NEVER about what the Ork's opponent brings to the table, boys have vitually no armor and AV11 is easy to pop, most armies have the tools to deal with both....Kanwall is ONLY about the KFF Mek and how lucky the Ork player is at rolling 4+ cover saves. If his dice like him, he pretty much will win; if however, he is rolling alot of 1-3s, then the Kanwall falls apart quickly.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I often wonder if many who respond offer opinion from experience or preach via theory..... Shoot at range and soften them up. 6 CML and 3 typhoons will make them hurt.

So you suggest a 1750 pt army with only 18 missiles and has not ability to ensure getting into combat, plus 3 heavy bolters.
Which armies are scared of this, I am generally curious

MFletch wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I often wonder if many who respond offer opinion from experience or preach via theory..... Shoot at range and soften them up. 6 CML and 3 typhoons will make them hurt.

So you suggest a 1750 pt army with only 18 missiles and has not ability to ensure getting into combat, plus 3 heavy bolters.
Which armies are scared of this, I am generally curious

Most armies honestly... unless its another Terminator-centric build. 18 ML's, that can shoot 2 at 9 different targets, can generally knock out a LOT of transports/mech. Then, unless your opponents suicidal, they will be forced to move away as not too many armies can face down 30+ terminators in CC and live to tell the tale.... Its like longfang spam basically, cept you have terminator armor to soak up shots

Oh -- don't get me wrong -- shooting the Boyz rather than the Kans is effective. But it's certainly tempting to put at least some hurt on the Kans, because otherwise they're probably taking your speeders out soonish with Rokkits, which reduces your number of frag shots...

I've beaten infantry-heavy Ork lists with that kind of Deathwing list before, for sure. And as I said, 5 x TH/SS + CML, in every squad, works. I'm just saying it's not the only way, nor is it necessarily the best way in a take-all-comers list. When I've added a few storm bolters, there's no time I've regretted that, including in tourney play (possibly I've just been lucky). I'd still want at least two TH/SS in every squad, mind.