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Reecius wrote:So much greenstuff in that picture!

Mike b dang near won the event, so I wouldn't feel bad. And, Dark Eldar are MEQ killers. They have a tough go of it with Missile Wolves, but otherwise are brutal.

I really like your Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons. They were one of the cooler armies there, IMO.

Thank you very much. Coming from you that is particularly cool. They will be finished at the Grand Waaagh. Hope to see you there.

Blackmoor wrote:

veritechc wrote:
That is my Thousand Sons Army getting the crap kicked out of it by Mike B's Dark Eldar...

As you can see by my avatar I have been working on some pre-heresy Thousand Sons myself. Did you use the chapterhouse studios shoulder pads?

Good eye! I have all of the items detailed in the post on my signature. Just click that link.

Yeah, the entire Zero Comp team is going to Da Grand WAAGH!, we like to support local events....and we go to pretty much every tournament we can just because we really like them!

@odmiller
That is a good idea and we are going to do something like that next year. It isn't fair to those who took the time to paint their models to play against those who didn't.

Part of the fun of a big tournament is seeing all the beautiful armies.

Okay, now that I've had a few days to get back in the groove of things, here are my thoughts on the Bay Area Open.

First, though, a big round of applause for everyone involved in getting the tournament assembled & running. This was a huge event for a first-time outing, and it is remarkable how smoothly everything went. Good job, guys! Please understand that the criticisms that follow are not complaints; they are intended in the nature of feedback, directed toward improving what was already a very successful event.

Venue: Tolerable. The event was in a convention "hall" at a county fair grounds. It had plenty of space, which reduced the collisions during games, and high ceilings, so we didn't feel cramped. Airflow was strange, though - there were a couple of swamp coolers, which threw a LOT of air...in a straight line across the hall; if you were 5 feet to either side, you got little benefit. The place got pretty warm, if you weren't in a breeze. Shifting the event to March will help with that aspect, for as long as they maintain this venue. It was nice of you to order pizza, and not gouge for it.

The bathroom, however, stank. It was fairly clean, mind you; it just had a perpetual funk. And bare concrete floors are really hard on the knees/ankles if you stand on them for 10 hours.

Hotel: On a related note, the Days Inn in Antioch. On the plus side, it was recently refurbished, it has a (minimal) breakfast included, and the rates were very cheap ($75/night). My room even had both fridge & microwave, which kept the beer cold. But at the end of the day, it's still a Days Inn - the towels are small & scratchy, the beds aren't especially comfortable, and it lacks things like a hot tub (which would have been GREAT after 4 rounds on Saturday). It's also not in the best part of town.

Recommendation: I understand the desire, especially the first year, to keep costs low - that allows people to try out the event for less, keeps the financial risks low for the organizers, and leaves room to grow. I'm hopeful, in a year or two, to see the BAO get a little more upscale; I'd be happy to pay $65 for a ticket (instead of $45), if it means playing somewhere a little more comfortable, and preferably somewhere with more food options than Little Cesar's - my digestion ain't what it was back in college, which was the last time I ate that stuff. And let's find a Holiday Inn Express or something to partner with.

Terrain: Adequate, but disappointing. Not from the general tournament perspective, as they certainly provided as much or more than many other large events, but solely from a "delivering on expectations" perspective. Reece over-promised, and then reality caught up with the crew.

Recommendation: It wasn't bad, but there is room to improve. The good news is that improvement is easy - you get to build from this year's efforts, and so you always are in a better place than previous years. As I already mentioned, had I known there was a terrain creation issue, I'd have been happy to help, and I don't think that I'm alone in that. Let's have some Bay Area terrain-making parties before next time, and we can bump terrain from "adequate" to "fantastic" with just a little work.

Armies: A nice mix. I was cheering for the Necrons the entire time, and I was thrilled to get paired against Carlos' Tau in round 1. I actually fought 6 different armies over the course of the 7 game event, and didn't even get a mirror match (Tau, BA, CSM, GK, GK, SM, SW). That's fairly remarkable. Many were pretty; some, as previously noted, weren't completely painted. Some people (especially my round 6 opponent) were very unhappy to be asked "Do you want your paint scored? We already know who won, but we'll score it if you want us to."

Recommendations: I'm sticking Painting here. I, too, would encourage you to stand by your minimum painting threshold. You're asking for relatively little, as compared with most other events - enforce it! Painted armies on painted terrain is a strong aesthetic draw for many players; some players feel almost cheated to run into incompletely-painted units, particularly if they spent the last week or so hurriedly finishing up their last squad. You don't have to kick them out, if that's too harsh, but a simple "you are ineligible to win anything but a door prize if your army isn't fully painted" would go a long ways to ensuring that you don't run into situations where only 1 player in your 3rd bracket is eligible to win "Best Hobbyist" because he's the only one with a fully-painted force. And that's easy to determine - just go look at the top bracket in round 4, and note down who is ineligible to win.

Better, of course, is to paint score everyone. It'll take some effort & time to do so (pretty much has to be during lunches, to prevent the issue of "my best models are still in play, and you're only scoring my dead/Reserves"); you might be able to free up some time by allowing pre-judging on Friday night.

Missions: Book missions. Everyone knows them, and there was no goofy language to interpret. That's a good thing. I'm not as sold on the bracket points: some armies (Tau) have a really hard time getting scoring units to the middle of the board without completely compromising their battle plan; some armies have a harder time keeping their HQs alive; and for 2/3 of the missions, there's no reason to reward someone for keeping their scoring units intact, beyond allowing them to claim the objectives needed for winning.

Recommendation:I do like the general mix of the bracket objectives (i.e., 1) Kill something; 2) control some portion of the board; 3) preserve some portion of your army); I'm just not enamored of those particular examples of the general objectives.

Organization: Solid. The projector was a great idea; the bullhorn was okay in practice. Pairings were available quickly, and time only became an issue in one of my games.

Recommendations:I'd love it if pairings were posted online, so people w/smartphones could access them just by refreshing a web page or reading an RSS feed, but that'd be pretty cutting-edge. Of course, this is the Bay - we expect a lot from technology!
You need some table randomization in your pairings. A lot of people played on the same table more than once, and that's unnecessary. Even something simple like modifying your excel spreadsheet for each round to shift table numbers by +5 per round would have been great, and it would have gradually moved your top table towards the middle of the hall.

Games: I had 4 great games, 2 distressingly-short games, and 1 game with a distasteful ending. My great games were just that - great; I won 2, and lost 2. My distressingly-short games both involved my opponent conceding on the bottom of turn 2; I understood why they were doing it, as my army played paper to their scissors, but it's not something I would do myself at a tournament. The last game, time ran out when I needed approximately 5 seconds for my turn 7 (I was going last) to move one unit 3"; all I could think of was the two minutes or so my opponent had spent on his half of turn 7, trying to decide where a rhino was going to end up, which was nearly irrelevant. Frustration!

Recommendations:I had movement trays for my genestealers, to ensure adequate time for my games; I also started several of them completely in Reserves. Time was adequate for an 1850 event. I'd still vote for a 1500 event, both to make Saturday a little shorter, and to make this event that much different from the other major tournaments around the country. Nobody else is targeting the 1500 pt level, after all - it could be one of the "things" that make the BAO different.

In closing, it was a great event. I'll cheerfully be back next year, regardless of whether anything changes. And remember - you don't have to do it alone; your attendees can be drafted to handle quite a few tasks for you! Make use of that labor pool!

Janthkin,

Were you the one with the Tyranids with the broodlord with the converted claws? If so your army was great. Did it get scored?

What was the paint score result.

I was the dark chap who asked you all about your army. My so and I were there. Hope to see you at the Grand Waaaga.

Nope, no broodlords in my army. But somewhere out there, you just made some 'nid player a little happier, I'm sure.

(I'm not going to win paint awards with my tyranids, but I'm happy with them.)

I have to second the genius of bring the projector. It made getting pairings so much easier.

Grats on a great tournament Reece!

Do you have the top 8 lists posted somewhere?

Some links to Battle Reports from the event!

http://forum.onthestep.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1299

Mike, our guest from Ireland, and one of their ETC member's report from his excellent showing at the BAO.

http://www.3forint.com/2011/08/drunken-master-bay-area-open-and-me.html

Dok's account of his time at the BAO, Dok played on table 1 for all the marbles round 7!

http://www.tabletopwar.net/2011/08/bay-area-open-deep-thoughts.html

http://www.tabletopwar.net/2011/08/400-posts-slide-show-of-bay-area-open.html

Magilla Gurilla's blog with loads of battle reports, slide shows and commentary on the event.

http://galaxyinflames.blogspot.com/2011/08/bay-area-open-gt.html

Evil Genius' Battle Report with his awesome Necrons.

http://ninjahut.blogspot.com/2011/08/bay-area-open.html

A report from the Ninja Hut! on the Warmahordes side of the event.

If anyone else out there has any reports on the event they'd like to share, please fell free to send me the links!


@Janthkin
I appreciate your thoughtful commentary and I think they are all good points. We do our best to prevent our feelings and egos from getting in the way of listening to good, constructive criticism. The only way to improve is to face the mistakes we made and seek to fix them.

We are in all likelihood going to stay at the fairgrounds for another year as it is so affordable. Year three will most likely be the year we level up into a hotel. We want to really build up our reputation first, to minimize the financial risk.

A lot of what you are saying is being repeated by other players and as such, we are gong to take steps to enact all of those changes.

I personally like 1500 for all the reasons that have been stated. I will send out an email asking for opinions on specific sticking points such as this and run a poll here on Dakka and then we will make our decision as a team soon so people can plan.

@skrepa
Yes, the projector was such a great idea and time saver. We got that idea from Adepticon!

@Kevin Nash
Thanks! A lot of the ideas we implemented in our tournament came directly from the Sprue Posse events, such as the use of the Swiss Perfect pairing software (thanks for that!).

I hope you guys can join us next year, it would be great to have the Sprue Posse in attendance.

As for lists, I will post the top lists tonight, along with a list of who was playing what army and then get that off to RankingsHQ for you guys.

1500 makes GK sad. I'm not sure what I would do with that...
Thanks for pimping my link as well, I was gonna post it here but I don't want to be an internet whore.

reecius wrote:

@Kevin Nash
Thanks! A lot of the ideas we implemented in our tournament came directly from the Sprue Posse events, such as the use of the Swiss Perfect pairing software (thanks for that!).

I hope you guys can join us next year, it would be great to have the Sprue Posse in attendance.

As for lists, I will post the top lists tonight, along with a list of who was playing what army and then get that off to RankingsHQ for you guys.

Thanks Reece. I apologize for not being able to attend this year. My schedule just wouldn't allow it. It hasn't allowed a whole lot of any kind of 40k lately for that matter. I'm really excited you had such a successful event. I know exactly how challenging it can be to organize and run a tournament of that scale. It's very difficult to do correctly and it sounds like you guys pulled it off with great results. That is really impressive


Edit: Regarding the venue: Hotels can be very expensive (I did my own research believe me). Convention centers on the other hand are surpisingly affordable and signifanctly less than a hotel, but also have nice amenites like air conditioning and food and also tables and chairs onsite. Maybe something worth looking into for next time.

@Dok
No worries man, pimp away. We love getting the feedback about our event and it helps you out, too. That's what we like to call, Twin-Linked Pimpage!!

I am a part time comedian.

@Kevin Nash
No worries, I totally understand how hard it can be to make events. I had to back out of Nova again this year because of some unexpected financial issues that sprung up.

If you guys can make it next year that would be killer.

I will look into convention centers. While researching a location, everything we saw was crazy expensive and the Fair Grounds was really the only viable location for our first year.

Just some more general pictures of the event.
The Venue.


Looking in the door


From the other side


Reecius (fixing terrain on the morning of day2)


Staff support (with the overhead display on the wall)


My army ready to go on a typical table.


Typical table setup (note the extra 2' on the end for your stuff)


And some Armies:
Dark Angels

More Dark Angels

Even more Dark Angels

Drop Pod Sallies

Foot Guard Girl Army

Imperial Fists trying to do the DoA thing (scouts for scoring)

Converted Tau...the white was very nice and smooth.

SW Rhinos freehand paint...very nice.

Daemons

Daemons closeup

Pre-Heresy standing in a Death Cult Assassins.

dkellyj wrote:
More Dark Angels

I recognize that army!
Your picture turned out better than mine, and it is my army!

@dkellyj
Those are some great pictures!

Here are results for 40K and Fantasy with Armies per player.

40K Results
1 James__Curry, 7-0-0 16 (Imperial Guard) Mech Guard
2 Nathan__Whitacre, 6-1-0 13 Battlewagon Orks
3 Allan__Hernandez, 5-0-2 11 Grey Knights (Paladins/Draigo)
4 Christian__Aleesi, 5-1-1 10 (Grey Knights) Death Cult Assasins+Psyfleman Dreds
5 Michael__Oade, 5-1-1 10 Dante and Mephiston Mixed Blood Angels list.
6 Michael__Bass, 4-1-2 17 Wrack and Grotesque Dark Eldar
7 Levi__Joos, 5-2-0 16 Battlewagon Orks
8 Josh __Sellers, 5-2-0 14 Crowe Grey Knights, Dual Dreadknight
9 Julian__Houghtby, 4-1-2 14 Tervigon Tyranids
10 Jon__Regul, 5-2-0 13 Kan Wall Orks
11 Jeffrey__Kaminsky, 5-2-0 13 Chaos Space Marines
12 Russell__ Jacobsen, 4-1-2 12 Grey Hunter Heavy list with inly one squad of Long Fangs.
13 Russ__Adderson, 5-2-0 10 Battlewagon Orks
14 Robert__Pace, 4-2-1 16 Dark Eldar
15 Joshua__Bousquet, 4-2-1 14 Mech Blood Angels
16 Steven__Smith, 3-1-3 14 Dark Eldar
17 Benjamin__Wilder, 4-2-1 12 Chaos Plague Marines
18 Gordy__Danke, 4-2-1 11 Grey Knights
19 Paul__McKelvey, 4-2-1 11 Tau
20 Jason__Gurule, 4-2-1 9 Deathwing
21 Ehren__Epstein, 4-2-1 8 Dark Eldar
22 Joaquin__ Villagrana, 3-2-2 15 Purifier/Psyfilemen Grey knights
23 Pablo__Caballero, 4-3-0 13 Paladin and DCA dual Stormraven list.
24 Douglas__Miller, 4-3-0 12 Mech IG variant
25 Tom__McLaughlin, 3-2-2 12 Vanilla Marines
26 Michael__Tangney, 3-2-2 12 WWP Dark Eldar
27 Peter__Ferrell, 4-3-0 11 Imperial Guard
28 Kevin__Brown, 4-3-0 11 Genestealer Tyranids
29 Keith__Holt, 4-3-0 9 Necrons
30 Doc__Glenboski, 3-2-2 7 Horde/Blob Imperial Guard
31 Mike__Entropo, 3-2-2 7 Mech Eldar
32 Mathew__Loukides, 3-3-1 12 Razorspam Blood Angels
33 Davis__Kingsley, 3-3-1 12 Space Marines
34 Michael__Moore, 3-3-1 11 DoA Blood Angels
35 Casey__Steele, 3-3-1 10 Blood Angels
36 Charles__ Pierce, 2-2-3 9 Blood Angels Razorspam
37 Ian__Chadwick, 3-3-1 8 Tyranids (Trygon x3)
38 Jack__Lemly, 3-3-1 7 Triple Trygon Tyranids
39 Scott__Webster, 2-2-3 7 Long Fangs/TWC Space Wolves
40 James__Reeser, 3-3-1 6 Triple Deathstrike Guard
41 Andrew__ Bruch, 3-3-1 5 Deatwing
42 Kenneth__Heater, 3-4-0 14 duke Dark Eldar
43 Xavier__Frazier, 3-4-0 13 Dark Eldar
44 Alexander__Cotton, 2-3-2 11 Eldar
45 Daniel__Nieuwenhuis, 2-3-2 10 vanilla marines with las/plas razorback spam, 3 typhoons/ 3 preds
46 Nick__Kirkendall, 2-3-2 7 Mech Guard
47 Ian__Gahner, 3-4-0 6 Vulcan Drop-pod Marines
48 Paul__Cornelius, 3-4-0 5 Space Ork Trukkboy Speedfreaks
49 Jon__ Machado, 2-3-2 5 DoA/Baal Preds Blood Angels
50 Kelly__Jernigan, 2-4-1 9 Space marines (Vulkan Hammer-spam)
51 Pete__Setchell, 2-4-1 8 Tyranids
52 Scott__SCGWL, 2-4-1 8 Dark Eldar
53 Peter__Hoover, 2-4-1 8 Daemons
54 John__Weyermuller, 2-4-1 6 Mech Space Wolves
55 Jason__Hoover, 2-4-1 4 Blood Angels
56 Brian__Kishimoto, 1-4-2 10 Battlewagon Orks
57 Timothy__ Trammel, 2-5-0 9 Doublewing Dark Angels
58 David__Doan, 1-4-2 9 Predator/Razorspam Blood Angels
59 Phillip__Ruggiero, 2-5-0 8 Mech Dark Eldar
60 Thomas__Gordon, 2-5-0 8 (Blood Angels) Flesh Tearers
61 Douglas__Bevard III, 1-4-2 7 Venom Spam Dark Eldar
62 David__Key, 2-5-0 4 DoA Blood Angels
63 Joshua__Jung, 0-4-3 10 Speed Freak Orks
64 Dante__Saraga, 1-5-1 7 Eldar
65 Nick__Myers, 1-5-1 6 Space Marines Imperial Fists
66 Carlos__Franklin, 1-5-1 5 Tau
67 Chris__Saraga, 1-6-0 6 GKs (Inquisitor Henchmen heavy) Pre Hersey Thousand Sons
68 Adam__Bredt, 1-6-0 3 Tau
69 Jeremy__Ecklin, 2-2-1 11 Space Marines
70 Nick__Hayden, 1-2-2 7 Space Marines
71 Dustin__Neu, 2-2-0 6 space wolves razorback spam/ 3 long fangs
72 John__Ruiz, 2-2-0 2
73 Jesse__McGowan, 1-1- 2 7 Purifier Spam
74 Andrew (AJ)__Spalding, 0-4-0 3 DoA Blood Angels
75 Michael__Wood, 1-2-0 4 Deathwing

Fantasy Results
1 Chad__Pond, 4-0-1 6 Skaven
2 David__Inman, 4-1-0 10 Daemons
3 Brad__Feliz, 4-1-0 6 Warriors of Chaos
4 Josh__Rosenstein, 3-1-1 10 Skaven
5 Micheal__Hengl, 3-1-1 6 Lizardmen
6 Dustin__Harnois, 3-2-0 8 Orcs & Goblins
7 Larry__DeTomasi, 3-2-0 8 Warriors of Chaos
8 Edmond__Phillips, 3-2-0 7 Vampire Counts
9 Jeffrey__Sterre, 3-2-0 6 Vampire Counts
10 Derek__Wiswell, 3-2-0 6 Bretonnia
11 MCLOVIN, 2-2-1 6 Bretonnia
12 Ben__Mitchell, 2-3-0 12 High Elves
13 Van__Nguyen, 2-3-0 5 Empire
14 Colin__Mayfield, 1-2-2 5 Lizardmen
15 Sergio__Alvarez, 2-3-0 4 Dark Elves
16 Adam__Bienvenu, 1-2-2 4 Beastmen
17 Andy__Garcia, 2-3-0 3 Dark Elves
18 Stewart__Roud, 1-3-1 5 Beastmen
19 Kirk__Lund, 1-3-1 3 Beastmen
20 Joshua__Fricke, 1-2-0 2 Warriors of Chaos
21 Peter__Franco, 0-5-0 3 Orcs & Goblins



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Results have been sent to RankingsHQ. Tyson will handle Warmahordes results once he is back from GenCon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1. James Curry
Imperial Guard
HQ
CCS: P.Gun x 4, OoF, Chimera HHF
Troops
Vets: P.Gun x 3, A.Cannon, Chimera, HHF
Vets: P.Gun x 3, A.Cannon, Chimera, HHF
Vets: M.Gun x 3, 1x Shotgun, Demolitions, Chimera, HHF
Vets: M.Gun x 3, 1 x Shotgun , Chimera, HHF
Vets: M.Gun x 3, 1 x Shotgun , Chimera, HHF
Elites
Ratlings x 5
Fast
Vendetta: H.Bolters
Vendetta: H.Bolters
Heavy
Manticore
Manticore
Hydras x 2


2.) Nathan Whitacre
Orks
HQ
Ghaz
Big Mek w/KFF
Troops
19 Slugga Boyz: Nob, Klaw, B.Pole
20 Slugga Boyz: Nob, Klaw, B.Pole
Grots x 12: Runtherd
Nobs x 8: 8xCybork and Eavy Armor, 2 Klaws, 2xBig Choppas, Painboy, WAAGH!! Banner, B.Pole x 3
Battle Wagon: Red Paint, A.Plates, 2xB.Shoota, Boarding Plank
Heavy
Battle Wagon: Red Paint, A.Plates, 2xB.Shoota, Boarding Plank
Battle Wagon: Red Paint, A.Plates, 2xB.Shoota
Fast
Deff Kopta: Buzz Saw
Deff Kopta: Buzz Saw
Elite
Lootas x 13
Lootas x 5
Lootas x 5

3.) Alan Hernandez
Grey Knights
HQ
Draigo
Librarian: Warding Stave, Hammerhand, Might, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding
Troops
Paladins x 10: Sword x 3 (1 M.C.), Hammer x 2, Halbred x 4 (1 M.C.), Bro Banner, M.C. Psychannon x 3, P.Cannon x 1,
Strike Squad x 10: Psycannon x2, M.C. Sword
Fast
Interceptors x 10: M.C.Daemonhammer x 1, Psycannon x2
Heavy
Psyfilemen Dread

4.) Christian Alessi
Grey Knights
HQ
Xenos Inquisitor: Rad Grenades, Psykotroke, Hammer Hand
Coteaz
Elites
Techmarine: Rad Grenades, Psykotroke, 3 x Servo Skull
Ven Dread: Psyfilemen
Troops
Warrior x 3, Psyker x 5: M.Gun x 3, Chimera, Searchlight
Warrior x 3, Psyker x 5: M.Gun x 3, Chimera, Searchlight
Warrior x 3: M.Gun x 3, Chimera, Searchlight
Death Cults x 6, Crusader x 3, Crusader x 3: Chimera, Searchlight
Death Cults x 6, Crusader x 3, Crusader x 3: Chimera, Searchlight
Heavy
Psyfilemen Dread
Psyfilemen Dread
Psyfilemen Dread

Interesting draigo list.

Interesting considerations:

3 each for tau and eldar for the whole list. Deathwing, too. A few more bugs armies than that. One necron & one daemon.*

GKs, Orks, & DE dominating the Top 20, with only army to represent IG ... albeit #1 !

Only 2 each for BA and SW in the Top 20. Izzit that they're no longer so competitive, or just not the most recent of Codexes? The mid-field seemed to be majority BA and vanilla SM with various xenos tossed in for color.

Overall, the IG numbers seems kinda thin for the whole GT. Earlier this year, it seemed that every monthly RTT had at least 3 outta 20 guys with IG, sometimes 6 or so.

It'd be interesting to see actual data on how the tides of one armies' presence ebb and flow over the tourney scenes. Does somebody have more time than I do to do that?


*I might've missed something here or there.

More pics from the open

@Ultraraider

Wow, those are some killer pics! Thanks for posting those!

@Brotherrekose

The Sprue Posse guys aggregate some awesome tournament data, by far the best I've seen on the net. www.chaoswins.com

We're going to crunch some of these numbers into a more easily digestible format and I am going to try and get some graphs up.

I noted a lot of the same things you pointed out and I have to agree. I think that what has happened, is that a lot of the top level guys have transitioned over to DE and GK.

IMO, GK's are the top army. They have a tool for everything. One of the best shooty units (Psyfilemens), assault units (Death Cults/Crusaders/Grenade Chuckers), anti horde (Purifiers), anti-deepstrikers (strikes), and a million other tools for every occasion. So far, they only armies I have seen that pose a real threat to them are Eldar, Tau and Night Shield DE against certain GK builds. Two of the three of those builds are not common in tournaments.

So, we saw less top tier armies because the most competitive gamers have shifted with the meta.

IG still have all the tools to crush people, and with less missile wolves, their counter IMO, they can shine again.

The mid-field players, IMO, are guys who bring what they have and aren't chasing the meta, so they bring their normal lists.

We saw a LOT of BA players, they were far and away the most common army. Razor/Pred Spam, or Hero Hammer BA are the only lists I personally consider top tier, although good players are doing well with mixed lists. We saw lots of DoA BA lists, which really only do well against other MEQ lists and static shooty armies. They just don't do well against assault armies with superior assault units like Bugs and Daemons who ignore all the benefits DoA armies pay lots of points for.

It is interesting data and I will spend some time aggregating it for everyone to munch on. Next year we are going to implement some systems so we can really break down the numbers and dig into it.

Reecius wrote:@Ultraraider

Wow, those are some killer pics! Thanks for posting those!

@Brotherrekose

The Sprue Posse guys aggregate some awesome tournament data, by far the best I've seen on the net. http://sprueposse.wordpress.com/

That site is defunct. The current site with army lists is here: www.chaoswins.com

Hey folks, James Curry here. I just wanted to thank Reece and the rest of the folks for putting on this fantastic event. The only other big tournament I have been to was the Broadside Bash last winter, and I have to say that this experience was much much better. The venue was perfect, reminded me of the fairgrounds back in my home state, I'll just have to remember to check for dead mice before putting my stuff in a corner next year. The staff was very proactive about rules question,anytime even the smallest thing came up, they were there, within seconds of someone raising their hand, and the question was answered quickly, allowing us to get on with our games.

One thing I do have to comment on was the large amount of ties that happened on the first day among the top bracket. With two ties being equal to a win and a loss as far as the scoring system was concerned, this led to me fighting someone who already had a loss going into the final round. Looking at the final score, I see that even if he had one, and gotten all 3 bracket points, and me none, both of us would have ended up with a 6-1 final score, and I would have had more bracket points, so the last game was a little anti-climatic. Maybe have a tie count for .6 wins or something would have fixed this.

I do see an error with my list that Reece posted: My command squad should have a 4th plasma gun, and there should be a 2nd squad armed with 3 plasmas and an auto-cannon, for a total of 5 veteran squads. I also posted my list over on the LATCS forum, you can find the thread here: http://latcs.ultrabb.net/view_topic.php?id=1021&forum_id=4

Overall I had a great time, and thought it was a very well run tournament. I just missed being able to play Allan Hernandez and his grey knights, who I understand was one of the favored to win, and was the only other person to go undefeated at the tournament, perhaps we can get a game in if you are ever down in SoCal sometime. I will be in Ohio next year, so I can't promise I will be able to make it back. However with any luck, I will be able to get a few day off and come defend my title!

-James

IGJames wrote:
One thing I do have to comment on was the large amount of ties that happened on the first day among the top bracket. With two ties being equal to a win and a loss as far as the scoring system was concerned, this led to me fighting someone who already had a loss going into the final round. Looking at the final score, I see that even if he had one, and gotten all 3 bracket points, and me none, both of us would have ended up with a 6-1 final score, and I would have had more bracket points, so the last game was a little anti-climatic. Maybe have a tie count for .6 wins or something would have fixed this.

This is a more an issue with bracket points than the scoring. If you play someone head to head and beat them in true swiss and you both finish with the same record, the head to head winner is going to be ranked higher.

@IGJames
It was good to have you. Congratz on the win! The reason you played down in the last game is because there was not 128 players there. Had there been closer to max, there would have been two players (most likely) with undefeated records playing in the finals.

In our test tournaments with Bracket points, we never had a situation in which the leader was so far out that he couldn't lose the tournament in the last game.

Kevin Nash's point about the head to head victory in true Swiss is a good one. The reason we implemented bracket points at all, was because we wanted total control of the player's destiny in their hands. Strength of schedule takes some control away in that it limits the tactical advantage of playing for the tie in a bad match up, which I feel is a viable tactic in 5th ed 40K.

We may have to implement a new series of tie breakers, or as you suggested, make a tie count for slightly more than half of a win in order rectify those types of pairings.

@Kevin Nash
Thanks for the input and the updated site, I fixed it.

Funnily enough, most sports that allow ties actually count them as one third a win. They are better than a loss, but a win is a big deal. Playing for the tie is valid when you're staring at a loss, but there's really incentive to put it all out there and go for the win.

skrewpa wrote:In the tourney packet and in this thread there was talk of making the event 1500 points instead of 1850. Out of curiosity, now that it's all over, what are people's thoughts on that?

Before the weekend started, 7 games at 1850 did sound exhausting. But looking back I think that it worked out very well. I think only one of my games wasn't able to go the distance due to time and we would have been going into turn 7 and my brain didn't feel like it was melting at any point.

I have mixed feelings about 1500 vs 1850. 1500 is a much more tactical game, I think, because alot of the big broken stuff gets left at home. So your troops etc and use of them become much more important. On the flip side, many army builds can't be done at 1500. My Wolfwing army would cry at 1500. 1850 seems to me to always be the level I can make any army and be happy with it, 2000 though is king.

I also prefer 2,000pts. That is my favorite.

Logistically though, 1,500 is SO much faster. ToS was 1,500 and people enjoyed it.

I think the issue with a lot of the resistance to 1,500 is that people don't play it much. I used to be a staunch 2,000 guy, but having been running and playing in a lot of 1,500 tournaments, I can honestly say that I think it is the best points level for tournament play, strictly due to logistics.

I think if people played that points level more, they wouldn't have the resistance to it that they show. It makes people feel like they can't bring all their toys to the game, which is understandably not a great thought. But with exposure to it, I find it to be a great way to play the game.

Hell, I love 1,000 point tournaments. One of the best tournaments I ever played in was 6 rounds in one day at 1,000pts on 4'x4' boards. Such a good event!

I'm right there with you, Reece. I love the larger sizes for the greater variety of stuff you can get in an army, but the smaller sizes are awesome for logistics and time considerations.

The Cold Steel Mercs' annual invitational is 1k just so we can get in a bunch of quick games in a day.

1500 all the way.

The notion that you cannot get all the toys you want in 1500 is just silly to me. What you cannot do is get 3 of the same thing over and over. So when people say you cannot get everything in 1500, it makes me wonder if you played 2000 points what are you taking differently? The answer is you are just taking the same stuff at 1500 but spamming it.

1500 is logistically great, but also hurts the all-comers ideal, as it's harder to fit in all the tools you need to deal with various "trick" armies, like Land Raider spam. IMO the current game/time setup was ideal; that said, I neither fielded nor played against a true swarm army, so I can't speak to whether it was sufficient for armies on the higher end of the modelcount spectrum. One player I talked to did say he was in a frustrating situation with a slow opponent, but from his descriptions, it was the player rather than the list who was at fault.

tastytaste wrote:1500 all the way.

The notion that you cannot get all the toys you want in 1500 is just silly to me. What you cannot do is get 3 of the same thing over and over. So when people say you cannot get everything in 1500, it makes me wonder if you played 2000 points what are you taking differently? The answer is you are just taking the same stuff at 1500 but spamming it.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Especially with some of the more expensive armies like Chaos, often at 1500 you're taking just what you see as the core essentials of your list, without breathing room for specialized stuff. My Boston Brawl List added terminators to my Throne of Skulls list, as well as adding some more CSMs and LDs.

Yeah, 1500 is definitely more restricting for some armies, and the balance of power shifts somewhat. Chaos and eldar shine at 1500, whereas guard lose a lot of steam and crone are even worse.

There are pros and cons to both points values.