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Boogles wrote: Primaris Ultramarines player here been out of the loop with what's happened to CSM for a while. I got rid of my old chaos models a while ago but thinking of getting back into CSM with a start collecting box and 2 battleforces. What do you all use for anti tank? My ultramarines army relied on repulsor executioners, stormhawks, and hellblasters. I've flipped through the book a bit, but the only things that immediately stood out for this were obliterators and havoks, but even then they seemed expensive for how fragile they can be.
Also being spoiled by aggressors really shows how not great terminators are. Any way to make them not terrible? I was thinking of chain axes with combi-plasmas.
Obliterators, in conjunction with cacophony and Votwl.
Havocs with lascannons and lord support aswell as cacophony.
As p5freak said, termites.
Melee via Lord discordant, DP, or any such beatstick.
blood reaper wrote: Are Havocs with Chain Cannons any decent? A lot of people here seem to promote Havocs with lascannons (which I already have), but I was thinking of running a squad of them with the Mark of Slaanesh. It seemed 64 (that's with Endless Cacophony) St5, AP-1 shots re-rolling to hit will shred just about anything. Factor in Veterans as well, and it seems like you'd basically be able to kill anything given enough time.
I was also tempted to use Forge Worlds Kakophoni as proxies (not only are they cheaper and nicer models, but it seems like a cool way to represent other forms of 'Sonic Weapons').
Its honestly just a range issue. 24" puts you in threat range of most other shooting in the game, and in some cases even melee. Youll be lucky to get more than a turn out of them.
Lascannons on the other hand, can comfortably squat in the back all game, being far more protected from the enemy. Chaincannons ARE fantastic on paper, but are hard to protect in practice.
yep, further, you need some movement shenanigans and they are really dangerous.
Otoh, literally everyone will shoot at them as soon as possible.
Spreelock wrote: Hey fellows, i'm looking for advice about Black legion army building, it seems that vigilus ablaze brought alot of different combinations, but I found most of them mediocre. I'm planning to build an army around abaddon, but i'm not sure where to go from there. Most likely not the cultists spam, but any thoughs are welcome. Thanks.
I'd still consider a blob of cultists simply for screening.
2x 5 man CSM would then be the other troops for the Battalion requirement.
Consider havocs, what with abbigail beeing really good to buff them, especially lascannons or alternatively Autocannons.
BL trait sadly is , erm, well you see when the BL trait even comes into play. So ehh.
Second HQ you could go with a Chainsword lord with ghovshrex teeth and Flames of spite
of course with jumppack.
Wayniac wrote: It's a trap simply because of the firepower that will be directed. So there are two ways to do it:
1) Don't and use Chaincannons elsewhere to prevent focus fire
2) Use them to make your opponent waste shots into them out of fear of the Endless Cacophony Havoc, while you have other things equally deadly.
#2 works best if you have a lot of threats on the board because your opponent has to pick which he ignores. I remember a lot of discussion when it was previewed gushing over the chaincannon havocs, but to my knowledge, they never really became that amazing of a unit that you saw dominating.
TBH, if you get a round of shooting in, they do wonders.
The key issue is that you need to use other ressources to get to that point, f.e. AL stratagem, Formation stratagem, etc.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Normally I wouldn't post this here, but since this thread was actually a big part of my learning to love and really embrace my Chaos army, I thought I'd share.
No real epiphanies for readers of this thread, but still fun to see something of mine posted on FLG!
you compared them to tofu.
WHY? HOW DARE YOU ABUSE THE STEW ! HOW DARE YOU!
Oh and yes in fun meta or random meta, or friend meta possesed are worth the lols if you invest in them. Somewhat.
Then again so is the undieable wall of Corsairs
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: @Gidun - It was actually written a while ago and only just posted, so away from my notes I think it was Greater Possessed buff, Diabolical Strength psychic power, and.... um... something else? I'll figure it out and ask them to post a clarification.
@Not Online!!! - A thousand pardons! I actually don't have a fondness for tofu, but I know culinarily that it famously tastes like whatever you cook into it. :-p Made sense at the time!
Well, I mean. Diabolical strength was the thing I kind of wanted to point out. It doesn't buff the entire unit but rather a single model in it.
Someone else in the comments actually posted a way to (correctly) do Str8, but when I get home I'll pull out my notes. I'll ask them to let me add a correction to my gak-up if I'm wrong. :-) Thanks.
Possessed bomb doesnt really work. You need up to 8 (!) support characters for maximum buffs. Thats up to 1000 pts.
You also don't need max Strength.
Often the S6 bracket is good enough.
That said , allready getting to the S6 bracket requires ressources that just are too costly imo in the context of things.
blood reaper wrote: I feel it's a bit of a waste of time to bring a unit if you have to bring like four or five other units to make it even semi-viable.
tbf the whole schtick of the chaos dex IS atm this stacking off buffs and in that respect possessed don't have the worst outlook, technically, until you realise that you pay 20 pts for a primaris without a gun and no consistency.
That said , allready getting to the S6 bracket requires ressources that just are too costly imo in the context of things.
Agreed. You need at least 4 support characters and stratagems to buff them to good levels. Thats ~400 pts. you could invest in chaincannon havocs, a rhino, and a chaos lord, prescience sorceror.
Assuming you want s6:
You'd need 2 Greater possesed so 140 pts.
Assuming you also want to get into melee you need warptime, and the right trait, either AL or RC. So another 90+ for a sorcerer AND you need the squad to be big enough to potentially swallow decent Overwatch. So about 10 dudes, which ammounts to 200 pts.
Further you want to reroll charges for 10 pts and potentially fight 2 times.
so we are talking about 440+ pts depending on psy weapon and stratagems, which will also have a cost further points.
RC would be cheapest option overall with probably the biggest ammount of Reach for the correspoinding unit of possesed BUT, assuming 1 command reroll for psy or charge aswell as fighting twice are 4 CP which are about 35 pts each.
So the actual cost for the list would be closer to 550-600 which has however not solved the other issues regarding CP and other options wanting CP aswell.-
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/12 13:44:10
20pts is a very valid concern. I mean, effectively they’re Primaris with a power axe and +1M, but agreed, they’re overcosted, and certainly unlikely to dominate hardcore competitive without strolling into a vulnerable meta.
Point of order on the Greater Possessed - their bonuses don’t stack, and Possessed are already S5, so you just need one (and only one) to his S6.
Regarding Sorcerer Warptime buy-in, if you’re CSM and not Khorne, you’re probably taking a Sorcerer with Warptime and either Prescience or a deity endurance spell. Dark Hereticus is really good, and the question for most of us is not whether or not we spend the points on a Sorcerer, it’s which unit we cast on. A horde of Possessed that can advance and charge thanks to a Gnarlmaw or Herald of Slaanesh is absolutely a viable first turn target, outside of hardcore competitive. With a Soulforged Pack, Maulerfiends can make the T1 touchdown without WT, so Possessed can really add to the horror there.
Whilst not top tier, it is the sort of themed Daemonkin list that disrupts a local meta without being frustrating - playing against it is a fun experience in survival and deployment. And, unlike a Defiler or such, it can conga line so that the Sorcerer doesn’t need to get into DtW range to cast it (notwithstanding BT scouts, assuming that they regain their original Strat, and that Crusaders don’t *replace* both OG troops choices as they used to) (some SoB or AdMech lists can definitely hard Counter, though).
Yep, forgot they don't stack, would probably need more daemon support then indeed.
However the issue still remains, beyond beeing fun, slinging a bunch of wannabee-primarismarines-cosplaying-daemons at the enemy that can't even figure out propperly how to fight in melee half the time, whilest fun is still frankly a lot less good then even flinging other stuff at faces.And as much as it is fun it is as agrivating when you just threw in essence 400 pts in the bin when you roll a one on attacks.
Not to mention the hard counters. However the worst designcrime in the equation is the MoP/ appostle and how they interact with possesed. THere's not much point in a MoP, (beyond trolling psyker heavy armies, if you get him in reach) when even a normal sorcerer offers just better alternatives.
Whilest the apostle himself is kinda , wierd, anyways.
I do hope for a price reductions for both the apostle and the MoP because they are conceptually great but so long you are not khorne there isn't really that much of a point in the apostle whilest the MoP is just atm kinda obsolete in a way, partially because his discipline is too specific for a unit type that is questionable in performance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/12 14:15:33
Wayniac wrote: I for one am not really hopeful about any significant changes, as sad as that may be. I've pretty much given up on any ideas of doing Chaos despite the army being my favorite, since I can't make them work the way I feel they should work (you know, with actual Chaos Marines) and I don't want to play them the way they're good because it never seemed to fit and I have a penchant for the "Undivided" Legions, Iron Warriors in particular so mixing and matching legion traits or "counts as" FOTM tactics don't cut the mustard.
until recently i run a list that had 40 CSM , 5 chosen, 5 havocs, 5 termites, and corresponding charachters aswell as some Hellbrutes and a defiler.
It did quite well unexpectedly, (was run as RC) until new marines showed up with the general -1 AP + other effects. Which kicked me back to field fodder from souped in R&H units.
It's especially agrivaiting that the superior tac marines pays less then a CSM.
saint_red wrote: To be fair, SM don't really have any units that are actually worth putting in a Land Raider. Assault Centurions, Aggressors and Smash Caps are the only melee units they have that are any good and a Land Raider does nothing for those units.
On the other hand, we actually have units that could benefit from a LR. If the LR drops to 277 as expected, I think you could make a case for Possessed, Zerkers, Plague Marines (with flails), Chosen and Havocs all hitching a ride. Still not 'competitive' as it stands but if those units get adjusted in CA19 or PA2 (please god) it could be interesting.
Personally I have been thinking about running 9 Possessed with an MoP in their specialist detachment. 3-5 attacks each at S6, AP-2 with Infernal Power up (1.36x modifier) is pretty good. Too expensive currently but honestly not far off.
9 possesed, MoP, LR, and specialist detachment.
That is alot of buck for low ammount off bang.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/14 06:40:15
saint_red wrote: Possessed and MoP will do over 25 wounds to MEQ equivalent easily. That's without fight twice strat or VotLW. That's actually very good. Similar point per wound as the full chaincannon havoc combo which is mathematically one of our most efficient ways of damaging MEQs. Do the math and see for yourself.
Land Raiders - if they get a point cut - start to actually become serviceable. They will cost about the same as a 2xtwin las Contemptor + a rhino and fulfill the same roles but in one package. Can it still die? Yes. But everything in this game will die if your opponent tries hard enough.
Zerkers will be even better against MEQs but a little worse against higher T/Sv models and don't have the option for MWs that Possessed do. I believe that flail Plague Marines are actually the most mathematically efficient but I have yet to do the maths myself.
We also have a shed load of new stratagems, WTs and relics coming our way so it's highly likely there will be some combinations out there that make this setup even better.
Each Possessed gets an average of 3 attacks. (1d3+1)
That's 2 hits.
4/3 wounds.
8/9 unsaved.
So you'd need a little over 28 Possessed to do 25 wounds to MEQs.
MOP has the reroll hits and wounds of 1, right? I'd assume that's what you're using. That changes the math to...
Roknar wrote: So with the new Alpha Legion trait, you can technically turn a lord discordant into a 48 inch sniper that also deals out moral wounds. Seems like a phenomenally bad idea, but I find that hilarious.
Otoh , sniping with a magma cutter is probably preeety bonkers
I mean, we get propper WE butcher terminators back, AND considering we get terminators cheap (cough chainaxe and combibolter) that squad is really scary.
S6 chainaxes? Hell yea, that squad is the ultimate chaff killer.
Gidun wrote: I'd probably throw in 2 DPs with wings and maybe a rhino for 10 of the 15 marines just to up the mobility of the DPs ever so slightly. 600~ points
Discolords are probably a good choice, but I just don't like them being targetable and I personally prefer DPs to be able to cast spells to snipe characters etc.
Honestly i'd skip the rhino if Mobility is what You want.
Discordants Imo need pack saturation,meaning that for All intents You need to run atleast 2-3 .
However I feel Like ca will slap 10-20 pts on them.
Honestly, the deployment shenanigans for Alpha Legion singlehandedly make them the most interesting imo in conjunction with ambush and the additional warlord trait.
The strongest I dunno but interesting for turning the faction on ist head.
Ist's cool and that's the point Imo, better cool rules for specific uses and archetypes then broken bs that so many of the recent marine supplements were.
Also honorable mentions, WB, because they sonehow made them interesting
grouchoben wrote: Very interesting developments for AL Discolords and Oblits. Both get a huge defensive buff: A single Disco can now hit -3 to hit that can't be stopped (trait, native and DA prayer). That's getting close to AL being able to drop the pack mentality and run a single Disco instead of 2-3, which is a huge difference.
Oblits can't be targeted T1, and now when they drop can count as characters, for all intents and purposes, for 2cp. That's a huge buff. Combined with ALDS denial and movement shenanigans, I can foresee AL lists making it very hard to be defanged. That is the primary letdown of CSM afterall, so this could be big news.
Definately thinking that AL havocks and oblits have a lot more oprions now. Really like the sniper bike lord too. He can reliably plink characters off whilst being fairly resilient to sniping himself and if he gets tarpitted can fall back and shoot for 1cp!
Terminator Alpha Lord with the Combi Relic I guess for always shooting in full effect too? I dunno.
Terminator or biker lord, Terminator for guarteed shots, biker for an extra combi botler!
Do we know how it affects combi weapons yet?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 21:47:45
WinterLantern wrote: oof word bearers smash apostle are looking possible. Take the double prayer buff, cast omen of potency and the khorne prayer and give them the cursed crozius. Enjoy 7 str8 -4ap dmg3 attacks, rerolling wounds against imperium. Sprinkle with a warlord trait and maybe the possessed strat too for a savage melee hq
Until we realise that da have no inherent Mobility Option..
Otoh the sniper AL Lord,is like the ultimate troll.
A sniping autocannon? Hell yeah. Or the bolter relic ontop a bikerlord? Oof
WinterLantern wrote: Nah just take a rhino party wagon with some possessed for the apostle. It's more for contesting the centre of the board with a anvil unit whilst ya jump sorcerers and demons do the legwork
I doubt it to be competitve but I feel that WB daemonkin lists are gonna be fun.
Altough what about dakka iw daenonengine lists? Now possible?
