Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Exactly, if you’re going to take a bunch of havocs and maybe some Obliterators, and you’re not definitely fighting pure horde, I reckon DB is a pretty solid upgrade

It's one of the better ones imo.

Otoh, do we know if the DA one in conjunction with the dark disciples gives you autopass prayers?

There’s no ‘always fail on a 1’ stipulation for prayers AFAIK

We are happy to spend 2CP to give a Knight a 5++ aura, the only real difference with this would be it can be gak down by snipers as opposed to by like a volcano cannon

The cult of the damned relic, WT, and Cultist strat are pretty weak IMO

Interesting, but yeah cult of the damned is pretty weak, as are the DA sadly in most circumstances.

What’s more, the book will include codex supplement-tier content for the Black Templars, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, Emperor’s Children, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/02/new-reveals-chaos-sororitas-tanks-and-moregw-homepage-post-1/

Sounds like great news to me. Because we aren't getting another codex we won't have the unit and points adjustments like Space Marines got but hopefully CA2019 will re-balance the points properly for us.

I'm not sure I even dare say it - but maybe my Word Bearers will finally be interesting?

Only if a Black Legion in Vigilus style update makes up for the worst trait that barely applies to any units in the book.

The firestorm of nerdrage they are potentially summoning to their social media by making it sound like what we're getting is anywhere close to the Marine insanity is a bold choice.

I think it's basically guaranteed at this point that they'll make traits apply to all units and they will be revisiting the traits of the legions in the book.

I'd say we can probably expect (some of) new WTs, relics, strats and psychic disciplines too.

Remember that PA1 had a decent amount of new rules even though they weren't insanely powerful. Some of the playtesters have also mentioned how the different PA books are going to vary in how much of the rules they rework, and the Aeldari stuff seemed to be on the low side.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

The Rumor monger who has correctly revealed things coming for some time now has said traits remain the same and are still laughably restricted. Expect what Black Legion got in Vigilus Ablaze.

Templars of course are getting the full absurd Loyalist Supplement treatment.

I want a full on change of the damn Black Legion trait. Only reason to use them is basically Abigail. That's it, really.

 Eldarain wrote:
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

The Rumor monger who has correctly revealed things coming for some time now has said traits remain the same and are still laughably restricted. Expect what Black Legion got in Vigilus Ablaze.

Templars of course are getting the full absurd Loyalist Supplement treatment.

I haven't seen any rumors that say that and I've read the N&R thread. The french person who was leaking hasn't had an update for a while now, afaik. I'd be interested if you had a source, though.

It's certainly possible that the update doesn't contain changes to traits but that would be pretty ridiculous even for GW. They have done a lot of trait re-balancing in the last 3 months too, so they've clearly identified that there are issues to be fixed in other armies - and we have had arguably the worst traits for a while now.

saint_red wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

The Rumor monger who has correctly revealed things coming for some time now has said traits remain the same and are still laughably restricted. Expect what Black Legion got in Vigilus Ablaze.

Templars of course are getting the full absurd Loyalist Supplement treatment.

I haven't seen any rumors that say that and I've read the N&R thread. The french person who was leaking hasn't had an update for a while now, afaik. I'd be interested if you had a source, though.

It's certainly possible that the update doesn't contain changes to traits but that would be pretty ridiculous even for GW. They have done a lot of trait re-balancing in the last 3 months too, so they've clearly identified that there are issues to be fixed in other armies - and we have had arguably the worst traits for a while now.

The French fellow did indeed say a few times that Legion traits wouldn't get an update. Not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but, given they were right about everything else, it's likely we're destined to be a good bit behind the loyalist scum for a while longer yet.

9

 TonyH122 wrote:

saint_red wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

The Rumor monger who has correctly revealed things coming for some time now has said traits remain the same and are still laughably restricted. Expect what Black Legion got in Vigilus Ablaze.

Templars of course are getting the full absurd Loyalist Supplement treatment.

I haven't seen any rumors that say that and I've read the N&R thread. The french person who was leaking hasn't had an update for a while now, afaik. I'd be interested if you had a source, though.

It's certainly possible that the update doesn't contain changes to traits but that would be pretty ridiculous even for GW. They have done a lot of trait re-balancing in the last 3 months too, so they've clearly identified that there are issues to be fixed in other armies - and we have had arguably the worst traits for a while now.

The French fellow did indeed say a few times that Legion traits wouldn't get an update. Not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but, given they were right about everything else, it's likely we're destined to be a good bit behind the loyalist scum for a while longer yet.

I could see them changing the al trait just so they can nerf it like they did rg. Then do nothing else for the other legions.

I'm slightly hopeful that the contrast between the rules for the one loyalist chapter in the book (getting improved traits + doctrines) and the five chaos legions will mean that we might get something to balance the scales.

 TonyH122 wrote:
I'm slightly hopeful that the contrast between the rules for the one loyalist chapter in the book (getting improved traits + doctrines) and the five chaos legions will mean that we might get something to balance the scales.

I'd be happy with just a new set of psychic powers, relics, strats and warlord traits for each legion. Apart from IH it isn't the legion traits that are the most beoken thing!

 small_gods wrote:

 TonyH122 wrote:
I'm slightly hopeful that the contrast between the rules for the one loyalist chapter in the book (getting improved traits + doctrines) and the five chaos legions will mean that we might get something to balance the scales.

I'd be happy with just a new set of psychic powers, relics, strats and warlord traits for each legion. Apart from IH it isn't the legion traits that are the most beoken thing!

I don't want broken things. I want good rules that match the fluff of the legions.

I don't want to see a "night lords beating " thread on dakka.

The new sorcerer's bloody gorgeous at least.

 lare2 wrote:
The new sorcerer's bloody gorgeous at least.

Considering the new GW model kits.

Considering however the recent pricetag on HQ's.

If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.

I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.

mrtomski wrote:
If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.

I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.

Not optimistic, if the traits get looked at, then you can bet that they will nerf it like they did with Alaitoc and RG:
If not , we keep the trait but get basically stuck on the same issues.

So I've been playing a Black Legion gunline lately with lots of havoc lascannons. Against Raven Guard (they used a ton of infiltrating units including 2 invictors, with supressor backup and a deepstriking unit of intercessors) using Abaddon it performed a lot better than I expected it would considering they were primarily infantry.
Last night I played against Space Wolves as part of my narrative campaign I'm running and even without Abaddon those lascannons did a NUMBER on everything they shot at! Wasn't expecting this list to go toe-to-toe with anything but knights/repulsors.

Well, marines, even infantry heavy ones, still present a lot of nice targets to be deleted by lascannons.
Of course anything that does on average 2+ wounds is good against nu marines that run primaris primarily, and atm there isn't really a reason to not run primaris over tac or equivalents.
Which is also precicsly why we still tend to use cultists.

Not Online!!! wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.

I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.

Not optimistic, if the traits get looked at, then you can bet that they will nerf it like they did with Alaitoc and RG:
If not , we keep the trait but get basically stuck on the same issues.

Altaioc wasn't touched as far as I know. For reasons.

mrtomski wrote:
If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.

I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.

There's a notable poster here who says Black Legion trait is BETTER than the Ultras.

Not that Black Legion is, as a whole, more powerful than Ultras. (Which used to be true, then Marines got a 2.0 while we have a 1.1.) That the Black Legion TRAIT is better.

 JNAProductions wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.

I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.

There's a notable poster here who says Black Legion trait is BETTER than the Ultras.

Not that Black Legion is, as a whole, more powerful than Ultras. (Which used to be true, then Marines got a 2.0 while we have a 1.1.) That the Black Legion TRAIT is better.

Please explain to me how the trait can be decently used... genuinely curious as I run BL and have hardly ever got any use out of it.

mrtomski wrote:
Please explain to me how the trait can be decently used... genuinely curious as I run BL and have hardly ever got any use out of it.

With Bolter Discipline... Not very often or well.

First off, if you need to advance a CSM Squad to get an objective or something, then it's nice to get a few extra shots. But that's niche-generally you'll want a FAST unit to do that.

Then, the range bands.

0"-18"
Useless. You trade 2 shots at 3+ for 1 at 4+ and d6" of movement.

18"-24"
Useless. You trade 2 shots at 3+ (standing still) or 1 shot at 3+ (moving) for 1 shot at 4+ and d6" of movement.

24"-30"
Finally adequate. You trade 1 shot at 3+ for hitting on a 4+, but gain d6" of movement-this trade MAY be worth it.

30"-36"
Actually useful. If you, for some reason, happen to have your only good CSM Bolter target more than 30" but within 36", you can Advance and potentially gain shots when normally you can't get any.

Then there's also minor tidbits (such as being unable to make it past LoS-blocking terrain without an Advance) but overall...

It's fething useless. The +1 Leadership bit is probably more useful-and we all know how unimportant Leadership is in 8th edition.

Edit: If you want to ask the guy who thinks the Black Legion trait is better than the Ultras (to my knowledge, he STILL thinks this) ask Xenomancers.

Wait seriously?
Why would someone think that?

Because his army is Ultramarines, and therefore must be bad, so he can bravely endure.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because his army is Ultramarines, and therefore must be bad, so he can bravely endure.

Literally had a local guy completely sell off his AoS Flesh Eaters at the height of their power because losing at events wouldn't give him an out...

Some people have tied their self image entirely too much to this game

 Eldarain wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because his army is Ultramarines, and therefore must be bad, so he can bravely endure.

Literally had a local guy completely sell off his AoS Flesh Eaters at the height of their power because losing at events wouldn't give him an out...

Some people have tied their self image entirely too much to this game

I mean it is a hobby afterall.
Not surprising therefore but the question remains.

Primaris Ultramarines player here been out of the loop with what's happened to CSM for a while. I got rid of my old chaos models a while ago but thinking of getting back into CSM with a start collecting box and 2 battleforces. What do you all use for anti tank? My ultramarines army relied on repulsor executioners, stormhawks, and hellblasters. I've flipped through the book a bit, but the only things that immediately stood out for this were obliterators and havoks, but even then they seemed expensive for how fragile they can be.

Also being spoiled by aggressors really shows how not great terminators are. Any way to make them not terrible? I was thinking of chain axes with combi-plasmas.

10 slaanesh plasma termis with a JP chaos lord for re-roll 1s, and a JP sorcerer for prescience. Deepstrike them all, cast prescience, use votlw, overcharge plasma, shoot, shoot again with endless cacophony. Thats 40 shots at S8 AP-3 D2, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, with +1 to wound. But also 600 pts.

Boogles wrote:
Primaris Ultramarines player here been out of the loop with what's happened to CSM for a while. I got rid of my old chaos models a while ago but thinking of getting back into CSM with a start collecting box and 2 battleforces. What do you all use for anti tank? My ultramarines army relied on repulsor executioners, stormhawks, and hellblasters. I've flipped through the book a bit, but the only things that immediately stood out for this were obliterators and havoks, but even then they seemed expensive for how fragile they can be.

Also being spoiled by aggressors really shows how not great terminators are. Any way to make them not terrible? I was thinking of chain axes with combi-plasmas.

Obliterators, in conjunction with cacophony and Votwl.

Havocs with lascannons and lord support aswell as cacophony.

As p5freak said, termites.

Melee via Lord discordant, DP, or any such beatstick.

Souping in some allies.

Are Havocs with Chain Cannons any decent? A lot of people here seem to promote Havocs with lascannons (which I already have), but I was thinking of running a squad of them with the Mark of Slaanesh. It seemed 64 (that's with Endless Cacophony) St5, AP-1 shots re-rolling to hit will shred just about anything. Factor in Veterans as well, and it seems like you'd basically be able to kill anything given enough time.

I was also tempted to use Forge Worlds Kakophoni as proxies (not only are they cheaper and nicer models, but it seems like a cool way to represent other forms of 'Sonic Weapons').