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grouchoben wrote: I'm happy to pay 103pts to upgrade a LR with two LoS-ignoring soul bombards, +3W and a 4++. But you're right of course, it's way suboptimal in today's meta. CSM have a problem with being too glassy, just thinking of ways to address that which don't involve PB spam.
Quite frankly, knights have made most superheavies and heavies obsolete.
Which is sad.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
grouchoben wrote: I'm happy to pay 103pts to upgrade a LR with two LoS-ignoring soul bombards, +3W and a 4++. But you're right of course, it's way suboptimal in today's meta. CSM have a problem with being too glassy, just thinking of ways to address that which don't involve PB spam.
Quite frankly, knights have made most superheavies and heavies obsolete.
Which is sad.
That's assuming many of them were good to begin with, which I would disagree on for a LOT of them.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
grouchoben wrote: I'm happy to pay 103pts to upgrade a LR with two LoS-ignoring soul bombards, +3W and a 4++. But you're right of course, it's way suboptimal in today's meta. CSM have a problem with being too glassy, just thinking of ways to address that which don't involve PB spam.
Quite frankly, knights have made most superheavies and heavies obsolete.
Which is sad.
Many were made obsolete by gw in order to sell knights. My fellblade doesn't have any trouble killing knights. Killing enough of them in order to make up for it's inflated price not so much. Hope gw undoes this gak in ca as it was created by last year's.
How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Gidun wrote: How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Not allowing your enemy getting T1.
More terrain.
Further, the classic combination of Obliterators with deathhex and prescience and lot's of CP.
Havocs with lascannons. hidden out of LOS. (see Terrain)
Votwl and massed S7 or 8 fire.
The issue is, you need to kinda tailor lists to beat knights , even comptetitive lists are tailored to be able to beat them due to their skew/gatekeeping nature.
Further Objective modes. etc.
alternatively if you have enough GEQ models you can drown them in abbadon plus cultists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/28 10:32:11
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
Gidun wrote: How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Not allowing your enemy getting T1.
More terrain.
Further, the classic combination of Obliterators with deathhex and prescience and lot's of CP.
Havocs with lascannons. hidden out of LOS. (see Terrain)
Votwl and massed S7 or 8 fire.
The issue is, you need to kinda tailor lists to beat knights , even comptetitive lists are tailored to be able to beat them due to their skew/gatekeeping nature.
Further Objective modes. etc.
alternatively if you have enough GEQ models you can drown them in abbadon plus cultists.
I always like posts about filling the board with LOS blocking terrain and bring plenty of Lascannons. Be careful with that. The major advantage to lascannons is the 48" range, put too much terrain on the board and those big guns are less effective.
Optimizing around lascannon havocs can be effective fighting Knights. Take 3 squads of Havocs with lascannons, make them Black Legion, take Abaddon for rerolls to hit, take a Sorcerer for Prescience and use Council of Traitors to give him Daemon's Eye (or just make him your Warlord,) and use Punishing Volley to shoot during your opponent's first turn movement phase. If you're not using Black Legion, okay, but make sure something gives you rerolls to hit, each shot matters.
If you go second, you should be able to put some wounds on a Knight. If you go first, you should be able to take down at least one Knight your first turn.
Protect your Havocs. If you know you are going second, stick your units behind LOS blocking terrain and bring them out your first shooting turn. Take a Noctolith Crown to improve everyone's saves and make sure everyone's in cover.
The downside to this strategy is you only have 12 lascannons on those Havocs and you're fighting things that eat Infantry. You can expect your opponent will do everything they can to remove the Havocs from the board. Your Plan B needs to be equally strong in case they get shot.
My Plan B is usually 60 Bloodletters in Deep Strike. 30 of them have enough attacks to take out a Knight on the charge. You want to go mono-Codex, which means Obliterators are likely on the menu. Dunno, but make the most out of the rest of your army.
Gidun wrote: I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
You would need a chaos lord to re-roll 1s to hit, if you want to overcharge plasma.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/28 11:14:30
Gidun wrote: I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
You would need a chaos lord to re-roll 1s to hit, if you want to overcharge plasma.
I know I didnt write it out but any deepstriking unit is in my mind always supported with a death hex/prescience sorc and chaos lord
Edit: btw wasnt there a vigilus ablaze warlord trait that gave your chaos sorc a reroll ones aura or something like that?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/28 11:36:37
Edit: btw wasnt there a vigilus ablaze warlord trait that gave your chaos sorc a reroll ones aura or something like that?
Yes, its called warp lord, you can re-roll 1s for psychic tests.
I mean sure they're expensive, but what's the equivalent version of oblits? 3 oblits are 18 shots for like 345pts unsupported right? And have a potentially lower damage output due to d3 ap and dmg no? Also fewer wounds.
Thanks but I was thinking of a trait, strat or whatever that gives a lord reroll aura to a char. I might be mistaken though
So I have been running my 30k emporers children as Flawless Host recently and I have to say wow what a difference exploding 6's can make.
Between the deamon prince consistantly doing 12 to 20 hits per turn of attack depending on the target and just how powerful 10 combi plasma terms with a 5++ and -1 to hit can be...
Has anyone else had much experience with them? I have played only 2 games so far, a 750 pt small game vs salamanders which was incredibly one sided (do just flew across the table, killed his warlord t1, then proceeded to eat everything in sight) and a 1500 pt vs tyranid (DP killed a harpy and his warlord broodlord, terminators dropped in t2 and killed Traygon prime, broodlord t2, t3 they killed 2 biovores, charged a 30 man termagaunt squad and killed them because of no synapses anymore) and the rest of the army just dealt with the bugs as they came (a single squad of 20 marines with 2 las cannons to take early advantage of endless strat) and the rest were 5 man teams for holding territory.
Gidun wrote: How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Spoiler:
Not allowing your enemy getting T1.
More terrain.
Further, the classic combination of Obliterators with deathhex and prescience and lot's of CP.
Havocs with lascannons. hidden out of LOS. (see Terrain)
Votwl and massed S7 or 8 fire.
The issue is, you need to kinda tailor lists to beat knights , even comptetitive lists are tailored to be able to beat them due to their skew/gatekeeping nature.
Further Objective modes. etc.
alternatively if you have enough GEQ models you can drown them in abbadon plus cultists
.
I always like posts about filling the board with LOS blocking terrain and bring plenty of Lascannons. Be careful with that. The major advantage to lascannons is the 48" range, put too much terrain on the board and those big guns are less effective.
Optimizing around lascannon havocs can be effective fighting Knights. Take 3 squads of Havocs with lascannons, make them Black Legion, take Abaddon for rerolls to hit, take a Sorcerer for Prescience and use Council of Traitors to give him Daemon's Eye (or just make him your Warlord,) and use Punishing Volley to shoot during your opponent's first turn movement phase. If you're not using Black Legion, okay, but make sure something gives you rerolls to hit, each shot matters.
If you go second, you should be able to put some wounds on a Knight. If you go first, you should be able to take down at least one Knight your first turn.
Protect your Havocs. If you know you are going second, stick your units behind LOS blocking terrain and bring them out your first shooting turn. Take a Noctolith Crown to improve everyone's saves and make sure everyone's in cover.
The downside to this strategy is you only have 12 lascannons on those Havocs and you're fighting things that eat Infantry. You can expect your opponent will do everything they can to remove the Havocs from the board. Your Plan B needs to be equally strong in case they get shot.
My Plan B is usually 60 Bloodletters in Deep Strike. 30 of them have enough attacks to take out a Knight on the charge. You want to go mono-Codex, which means Obliterators are likely on the menu. Dunno, but make the most out of the rest of your army.
yeah normally Lascannons do suffer from more terrain. However due to the stipulation of mono knights and the fact that knights are rather difficult to hide compared to infantry i find that terrain is never a bad call.
Frankly you should anyways never be able to see from 1 side to the other unopossed anyways, but i like to play with more terrain because it generaly tones down the whole killiyness off 8th a tad.
so yeah i am biased
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gidun wrote: I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
if you want to skip spending CP and lord you could go with a sorcerer and Purge terminators.
Purge terminators do show up and are preety scary.
however they don't excactly have as much damage output raw as slaanesh ones , keep that in mind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/28 13:26:57
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Gidun wrote: How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Not allowing your enemy getting T1.
More terrain.
Further, the classic combination of Obliterators with deathhex and prescience and lot's of CP.
Havocs with lascannons. hidden out of LOS. (see Terrain)
Votwl and massed S7 or 8 fire.
The issue is, you need to kinda tailor lists to beat knights , even comptetitive lists are tailored to be able to beat them due to their skew/gatekeeping nature.
Further Objective modes. etc.
alternatively if you have enough GEQ models you can drown them in abbadon plus cultists.
I always like posts about filling the board with LOS blocking terrain and bring plenty of Lascannons. Be careful with that. The major advantage to lascannons is the 48" range, put too much terrain on the board and those big guns are less effective.
Optimizing around lascannon havocs can be effective fighting Knights. Take 3 squads of Havocs with lascannons, make them Black Legion, take Abaddon for rerolls to hit, take a Sorcerer for Prescience and use Council of Traitors to give him Daemon's Eye (or just make him your Warlord,) and use Punishing Volley to shoot during your opponent's first turn movement phase. If you're not using Black Legion, okay, but make sure something gives you rerolls to hit, each shot matters.
If you go second, you should be able to put some wounds on a Knight. If you go first, you should be able to take down at least one Knight your first turn.
Protect your Havocs. If you know you are going second, stick your units behind LOS blocking terrain and bring them out your first shooting turn. Take a Noctolith Crown to improve everyone's saves and make sure everyone's in cover.
The downside to this strategy is you only have 12 lascannons on those Havocs and you're fighting things that eat Infantry. You can expect your opponent will do everything they can to remove the Havocs from the board. Your Plan B needs to be equally strong in case they get shot.
My Plan B is usually 60 Bloodletters in Deep Strike. 30 of them have enough attacks to take out a Knight on the charge. You want to go mono-Codex, which means Obliterators are likely on the menu. Dunno, but make the most out of the rest of your army.
yeah normally Lascannons do suffer from more terrain. However due to the stipulation of mono knights and the fact that knights are rather difficult to hide compared to infantry i find that terrain is never a bad call.
Frankly you should anyways never be able to see from 1 side to the other unopossed anyways, but i like to play with more terrain because it generaly tones down the whole killiyness off 8th a tad.
so yeah i am biased
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gidun wrote: I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
if you want to skip spending CP and lord you could go with a sorcerer and Purge terminators.
Purge terminators do show up and are preety scary.
however they don't excactly have as much damage output raw as slaanesh ones , keep that in mind.
Purge is pretty rad, but wouldnt not having acess to votlw hurt them too much plus needing to hurt the knight prior to them shooting also be a little bit swingy? Purge lascannon havocs soumd pretty interesting though.
Edit: messed up the spoiler tag, will fix it when i get home haha
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/28 16:03:45
Considering the last few top placing CSM lists fielded Purge termites if they fielded termites, (or slaaneshalpha) i'd say a purge soup in detachment might give you some CP independant power.
Further you can shoot into melee if necessary.
It's a nice piece of utility.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Are autocannons worth considering for your havocs with a Black Legion gunline list? 60 pts less with the tradeoff of being more VotLW dependent and weaker vs targets without an invulnerable save? But increased volume of fire...
Worth considering in today's meta or are lascannon havocs where Black Legion is at?
Rihgu wrote: Are autocannons worth considering for your havocs with a Black Legion gunline list? 60 pts less with the tradeoff of being more VotLW dependent and weaker vs targets without an invulnerable save? But increased volume of fire...
Worth considering in today's meta or are lascannon havocs where Black Legion is at?
If Abaddon is around for babysitting duty i'd go with lascannons.
If Abaddon is beatsticking stuff i'd go with ac /.LC depending if I also have heavier AT.
Ask techsoldaten though he is bl primary here.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I would be planning to have Abaddon babysit for rerolls. I've tried deepstriking him with terminators and I never have space to put him anywhere important.
I haven't tried just running him up the field though, but it seems like gunline is the way to go anyways.
Rihgu wrote: I would be planning to have Abaddon babysit for rerolls. I've tried deepstriking him with terminators and I never have space to put him anywhere important.
I haven't tried just running him up the field though, but it seems like gunline is the way to go anyways.
I think gunline or running up board behind a mob of cultists/daemon engines is the way to go.
I think reaper chaincannons are best vs almost any target. If you bring a rhino or termite range is fine. And I'd still bring a lord with devestation battery trait and relic. A unit with Abbadon/lord rerolls, VotLW and EC will nearly down a knight and also kill hoardes for fun.
T1 Havoc dakka with DB safety net, plus T2 oblits, all benefitting from DB WT, sounds about as good as it gets
How do Maulerfiends feel? With a soulforged pack, a Warptimed T1 charge can happen, even without Daemonic allies providing advance & charge auras. It may not make it, but it’s such a threat that it makes for a credible fire magnet…
lindsay40k wrote: T1 Havoc dakka with DB safety net, plus T2 oblits, all benefitting from DB WT, sounds about as good as it gets
How do Maulerfiends feel? With a soulforged pack, a Warptimed T1 charge can happen, even without Daemonic allies providing advance & charge auras. It may not make it, but it’s such a threat that it makes for a credible fire magnet…
Is devastation battery worth the CP? I only really see the benefit of the T1 strat, so paying 1cp for access to a one off strat you may not be able to use.
lindsay40k wrote: T1 Havoc dakka with DB safety net, plus T2 oblits, all benefitting from DB WT, sounds about as good as it gets
How do Maulerfiends feel? With a soulforged pack, a Warptimed T1 charge can happen, even without Daemonic allies providing advance & charge auras. It may not make it, but it’s such a threat that it makes for a credible fire magnet…
Is devastation battery worth the CP? I only really see the benefit of the T1 strat, so paying 1cp for access to a one off strat you may not be able to use.
Reroll wound rolls of 1 WL trait, ignore cover relic can make one unit an absolute beast.
lindsay40k wrote: T1 Havoc dakka with DB safety net, plus T2 oblits, all benefitting from DB WT, sounds about as good as it gets
How do Maulerfiends feel? With a soulforged pack, a Warptimed T1 charge can happen, even without Daemonic allies providing advance & charge auras. It may not make it, but it’s such a threat that it makes for a credible fire magnet…
Is devastation battery worth the CP? I only really see the benefit of the T1 strat, so paying 1cp for access to a one off strat you may not be able to use.
Reroll wound rolls of 1 WL trait, ignore cover relic can make one unit an absolute beast.
That reroll 1s to wound is only for vehicles, cover is an extra AP for a relic slot.. so I dont think those combo well, as you are not going to have lots of vehicles in cover. Can be useful on 2 squads targeting different things of course.
Prepared positions alone makes the detachment worth it. Havocs ap is wafty, and blitz can be, so negating cover saves really helps both units. The reroll 1s vs vehicles really helps when your havocs go executioner, knight or flyer hunting. I don;t think the detachment is necessary, but it's done good work for me.
Exactly, if you’re going to take a bunch of havocs and maybe some Obliterators, and you’re not definitely fighting pure horde, I reckon DB is a pretty solid upgrade
lindsay40k wrote: Exactly, if you’re going to take a bunch of havocs and maybe some Obliterators, and you’re not definitely fighting pure horde, I reckon DB is a pretty solid upgrade
It's one of the better ones imo.
Otoh, do we know if the DA one in conjunction with the dark disciples gives you autopass prayers?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Also depends on what boards and opponents you play. It's real common to get tank commanders, deredeos and executioners in cover the whole game in my local scene.
lindsay40k wrote: Exactly, if you’re going to take a bunch of havocs and maybe some Obliterators, and you’re not definitely fighting pure horde, I reckon DB is a pretty solid upgrade
It's one of the better ones imo.
Otoh, do we know if the DA one in conjunction with the dark disciples gives you autopass prayers?
There’s no ‘always fail on a 1’ stipulation for prayers AFAIK
We are happy to spend 2CP to give a Knight a 5++ aura, the only real difference with this would be it can be gak down by snipers as opposed to by like a volcano cannon
The cult of the damned relic, WT, and Cultist strat are pretty weak IMO
