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mrtomski wrote:
Ok let's say I buy into the reaper chain cannons havoks... how do you get them into range without dying?

A rhino means they have to survive 2 turns of shooting in it (seems unlikely) but a drill adds a lot to thier cost...

I'm changing up my list currently and am having 3 oblits, so votlw and endless will be used on them, are the RCC havoks still worth running?

Firstly, You'd still mark them slaanesh for opportunity threat.
Secondly: I'd say rhino depends alot on the ammount of terrain and los ignoring that you play with.
Thridly: 24"+6" movement because havocs don't care and add in alpha legion and you can squeeze in another bunch of inches.

Fourth: Devastation battery with the stratagem for shooting in the enemy turn can turn them into a dangerous unit all on their own.

Fifth: Whilest i generally still prefer AC the RCC is more then worth it's 20 pts. Especially if you can give them a defensive buff they become a priority target and comparatively it is Still a somewhat cheap unit.
HOWEVER: This all assumes you have more then enough CP which would lead to the question how much CP you generate in your list.

But yes a Unit of Chainhavocs is worth it even if you not primarrily build arround it, due to the fact that it profits from the same ammount off buffs. Especially usefull when you consider T1 you can buff them and t2 you can help out your obliterators.

"Especially usefull when you consider T1 you can buff them and t2 you can help out your obliterators." Yeah exactly this. I think a Rhino is worth it regardless, with the amount of LoS shooting coming from marines these days. Park the Rhino out of LoS against a ruin, and your Havocs can disembark out through the ruins, make their move into range, shoot, and die. T2 the Blits arrive and turn it up a level.

The Drill is another great option, if you can afford it. I can see Havocs sharing their ride with another MSU being a good build, but it arrives T2, and so competes with the Blits, rather than filling the T1 hole they otherwise leave.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Range helps you live.

you survive yes... cause the threath is low so most opponent wont ever care of AC havocs and when they decide to deal with them they do in 1 single turn, laser or chainguns are the only real threating havocs you can play.

So a Lascannon and RCC is better than a ML but the ML does the same job only worse at it. But the 48” usually makes them survive so you can keep on shooting for 3 turns.

So based on this, I think I will try 2 units of havocs with ML and 2 Deredo butcher and greater havoclauncher for backfield camping as my Lord Ds run up and letterbombs drop in midfield to enemy deployment.


As IH now gets all their buffs and reduces damage I cannot see what role the oblits does. Same as havocs but for 18 shots you pay 345 points vs 150points RCC. In my opinion they killed oblits with the new model realise and updated daatasheet.

New (new) FAQ is out, and the IH castle has taken a beating. I think you'll see much more of IH flyers, and maybe dread tricks, but it's too early to say. Long story short, your deredeo are gonna do great work against them now. I'd still recommend las over missile as 9/-3 is so much better than 8/-2, especially since you're running lots of S8 already... One MoH on a key lev or executioner, and all your guns are wounding on 5's. Good luck dude!

Tazberry wrote:
So a Lascannon and RCC is better than a ML but the ML does the same job only worse at it. But the 48” usually makes them survive so you can keep on shooting for 3 turns.

So based on this, I think I will try 2 units of havocs with ML and 2 Deredo butcher and greater havoclauncher for backfield camping as my Lord Ds run up and letterbombs drop in midfield to enemy deployment.


As IH now gets all their buffs and reduces damage I cannot see what role the oblits does. Same as havocs but for 18 shots you pay 345 points vs 150points RCC. In my opinion they killed oblits with the new model realise and updated daatasheet.

I wouldn't use ML havocs personally.
It's a nice oppurtunity weapon for a Min squad csm but a full havoc squad.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
New (new) FAQ is out, and the IH castle has taken a beating. I think you'll see much more of IH flyers, and maybe dread tricks, but it's too early to say. Long story short, your deredeo are gonna do great work against them now. I'd still recommend las over missile as 9/-3 is so much better than 8/-2, especially since you're running lots of S8 already... One MoH on a key lev or executioner, and all your guns are wounding on 5's. Good luck dude!

Well finally a reason to get myself a Hydra or two or three

 grouchoben wrote:
New (new) FAQ is out, and the IH castle has taken a beating. I think you'll see much more of IH flyers, and maybe dread tricks, but it's too early to say. Long story short, your deredeo are gonna do great work against them now. I'd still recommend las over missile as 9/-3 is so much better than 8/-2, especially since you're running lots of S8 already... One MoH on a key lev or executioner, and all your guns are wounding on 5's. Good luck dude!

after CA flyers spam will be NOT a problem anymore

 blackmage wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
New (new) FAQ is out, and the IH castle has taken a beating. I think you'll see much more of IH flyers, and maybe dread tricks, but it's too early to say. Long story short, your deredeo are gonna do great work against them now. I'd still recommend las over missile as 9/-3 is so much better than 8/-2, especially since you're running lots of S8 already... One MoH on a key lev or executioner, and all your guns are wounding on 5's. Good luck dude!

after CA flyers spam will be NOT a problem anymore

Are you knwoing that, heard that or just estimate that ?

 grouchoben wrote:
"Especially usefull when you consider T1 you can buff them and t2 you can help out your obliterators." Yeah exactly this. I think a Rhino is worth it regardless, with the amount of LoS shooting coming from marines these days. Park the Rhino out of LoS against a ruin, and your Havocs can disembark out through the ruins, make their move into range, shoot, and die. T2 the Blits arrive and turn it up a level.

The Drill is another great option, if you can afford it. I can see Havocs sharing their ride with another MSU being a good build, but it arrives T2, and so competes with the Blits, rather than filling the T1 hole they otherwise leave.

So basically jump out of the rhino T1 and move 9 inches into range... yeah I can see that working gives a 33 inch range effectively which should be enough most of the time.

Still 70 points for a bit of protection and the extra 3" movement.

The terminate + oblits does give you the option to potentially hold something back for t3.

Is there anything preventing us from farming CP with a SERVANTS OF THE ABYSS Battalion consisting of two commissars and three units of four beastmen? It’s a pair of power fists and three DS screens / backfield campers. Alternatively, have Traitor guard run & gun

 lindsay40k wrote:
Is there anything preventing us from farming CP with a SERVANTS OF THE ABYSS Battalion consisting of two commissars and three units of four beastmen? It’s a pair of power fists and three DS screens / backfield campers. Alternatively, have Traitor guard run & gun

Nothing, except that you get cheaper and more bodies with better equipment options if you go R&H

Aside of that, using BSF for R&H standins is also perfecly valid.

…yes, there is. No more than one Beastmen unit, no more than two Traitor Guard units.

But! No limit on Cultists of the Abyss. Three units of them and two commissars is just over 200pts, with six medium range guns to pester things whilst screening and holding objectives, and a cheeky Krak grenade that’ll occasionally do something.

…so, maybe get three boxes of them, and give two DV demagogues a PF & BP weapon swap?

 lindsay40k wrote:
…yes, there is. No more than one Beastmen unit, no more than two Traitor Guard units.

But! No limit on Cultists of the Abyss. Three units of them and two commissars is just over 200pts, with six medium range guns to pester things whilst screening and holding objectives, and a cheeky Krak grenade that’ll occasionally do something.

…so, maybe get three boxes of them, and give two DV demagogues a PF & BP weapon swap?

I get 2 commanders and 30 militia / mutants for that for excactly 170 pts. From R&H. could throw in 6 Heavy stubber teams aswell on top of that.

But technically yeah, you could modify the DV champions (i did modify one into a Malefic lord some time ago somewhere)
If you manage to get your hands on GSC boltpistols you are basically set, amputate an arm and there done.

OtoH, you are talking about a model with S3 that is paying for a PF and let me tell you out of personal experience, THAT SUCKS:

The regular CSM players in my area always tack on Rhinos for their Havoc squards purely for the LOS denial / they can park them and block a chunk of the board's LOS from picking tjhem off during the early turns

This helps Reaper Chainguns survive that 1-2 extra turns.

 Stevefamine wrote:
The regular CSM players in my area always tack on Rhinos for their Havoc squards purely for the LOS denial / they can park them and block a chunk of the board's LOS from picking tjhem off during the early turns

This helps Reaper Chainguns survive that 1-2 extra turns.

My idea was more like AL strat into range and buff t1 then t2 oblits come down and buff them. Off course that requires mobile HQ's so jumppacks.
I personally don't estimate my Havocs to survive T1.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
…yes, there is. No more than one Beastmen unit, no more than two Traitor Guard units.

But! No limit on Cultists of the Abyss. Three units of them and two commissars is just over 200pts, with six medium range guns to pester things whilst screening and holding objectives, and a cheeky Krak grenade that’ll occasionally do something.

…so, maybe get three boxes of them, and give two DV demagogues a PF & BP weapon swap?

I get 2 commanders and 30 militia / mutants for that for excactly 170 pts. From R&H. could throw in 6 Heavy stubber teams aswell on top of that.

But technically yeah, you could modify the DV champions (i did modify one into a Malefic lord some time ago somewhere)
If you manage to get your hands on GSC boltpistols you are basically set, amputate an arm and there done.

OtoH, you are talking about a model with S3 that is paying for a PF and let me tell you out of personal experience, THAT SUCKS:

Yeah, the heretical 32 are probably more efficient. I guess it comes down to a preference for a pair of swingy power fist that will struggle to get back their points back, or recording the random leadership rolls of five units.

3.
Charachters never really happen to need to check.

So heres a world eaters list I'd really like help with. Its 2 battalions and elite detachment for 14 command points the idea is the 4 rhinos and discordant rush up field with the hellbrutes walking behind shooting off there lascannons. Hoping for turn 2 charges. What do you think?

+ HQ +

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: Soultearer Portent

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 96pts]: Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

Kharn the Betrayer [8 PL, 120pts]: Warlord

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [180pts]: Baleflamer, Talisman of Burning Blood
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Master of Executions [70pts]:

+ Troops +

Khorne Berzerkers 144pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [93pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Power fist
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [144pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [93pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Power fist
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [93pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Power fist
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [93pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Power fist
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

+ Elites +

Helbrute [135pts]: Power scourge, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [135pts]: Power scourge, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [144pts]: Twin lascannon
. Helbrute fist: Heavy flamer

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 89pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-plasma, Havoc launcher, Mark of Khorne

Chaos Rhino [89pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-plasma, Havoc launcher

Chaos Rhino [89pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-plasma, Havoc launcher

Chaos Rhino [89pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-plasma, Havoc launcher


++ Total: [1,996pts] ++

Please don't copy/paste from Battlescribe.

Lots of fat on the bone there I'd say - plasma pistols, rhino-plas, havoc launchers, baleflamers, that all adds up to about 150pts (before we even mention the hellbrutes).

You're playing a viable but not competitive mono faction, so to have a hope in todays insane meta, you need to be efficient.

Your zerkers need the icon for the reroll charges - all of them. That many zerkers are gonna run out of cp rerolls in the charge phase realllll quick. run 6x5, fist on all the sarges., axe for everyone else.

target priority is pretty straight forward - nuke the discolord, then the rhinos, and throw chaff in their way. think about ways to make your opponent make hard decisions. Some hell turkeys might be a good fit for this list.

If you have to go apostle, give him the discipiles for a 2+ roll, and give them benediction of darkness to give your disco lord a fighting chance. imo he's a waste in this kind of list. More threat, always more threat.

Rhinos will go pop unless you hide them T1, and if you hide em their distance covered will be impacted. I'd try and make space for some drills that can DS in T2 and preserve their precious nutcase cargo.

You need some guns my dude. WEs still use guns. Hellbrutes are pretty poor right now. Proxy them as contemptors. Think about a Leviathan investment, or a deredeo.

Could go for the cheaper double dakka brute.
Aswell as shaving some equipment might invest in a second discolord.

so I put a bit more thought into the list and think i came up with a pretty good mix of stuff with lots of stuff coming at them forcing some hard target designation. it required me to take out 1 rhino of zerks and the dark apostle it also decreases me form 14 to 10 command points


+ HQ +

Exalted Champion [5 PL, 96pts]: No Chaos Mark, Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

Kharn the Betrayer [8 PL, 120pts]: Warlord

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne, Talisman of Burning Blood
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Warpsmith [4 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Flamer, Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, Power axe

+ Troops +

Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 144pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [5 PL, 93pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Power fist
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 161pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power fist
. 8x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 8x Chainaxe

Khorne Berzerkers [5 PL, 93pts]
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Power fist
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe

+ Elites +

Helbrute [6 PL, 90pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Reaper autocannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 90pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Reaper autocannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 90pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Reaper autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Chaos Vindicator [7 PL, 142pts]: Combi-plasma, Havoc launcher, No Chaos Mark

Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, No Chaos Mark

Maulerfiend [7 PL, 132pts]: Lasher tendrils, No Chaos Mark

+ Flyer +

Heldrake [9 PL, 157pts]: Hades Autocannon, Heldrake claws, No Chaos Mark

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Chaos Knights) ++

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - FW Heretic Astartes) ++


++ Total: [114 PL, 1,996pts] ++

Dakka brutes are not points efficient. They are cheap but they're also useless. Use Contemptors instead.

If you compare Las/ML Brute v Las Contemptor the Contemptor does 28% more damage per point against your standard T7 3+ vehicle/monster target. Comparisons against T8 or with different weapon options are even more favourable to the Contemptor.

The Contemptor also has an invuln which is quite useful.

You might as well also replace the Vindicator with another Maulerfiend for better threat saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and lose the Autocannon on the Heldrake. It's such a bad choice it's almost not funny.

Does anyone else get the sneaking feeling that Achilles LRs might have some juice to them? Their T1 survivability beats a knight's if you support it with prepared positions and an Apostle. 1+/4++ at -1 to hit is on parity with the 3++ knights of old. It can take weaver of fates to stack it up to 3++.

I know, I know, it suffers from bad touch, so the rest of your list would be skewed around board control to keep it firing, and 400pts is a scary amount to throw at a LR, and IFs were born to kill LRs. But it feels like it's not *too* far off being viable.

Then you probably want something else that the apostle can target IF it dies T1 or 2. Otherwise you can add that 100 points to that LR. So no I guess? Might be better of with a Chaos Knight.

Seriously hard pass on the Achilles. They are far worse offensively than Knights in shooting not to mention how pathetic they are in combat. They used to be good when they were ~330 points a year (or more?) ago but since then they've been useless.

I think if you want to run Land Raiders you should be looking at just the regular ones. They are only 277 points now (BattleScribe is wrong) which is quite cheap. You can give them a 5++ from a DA if you want. Remember that the 5++ is an aura so if you ran 2 you could protect both of them. I definitely think if you want to use Land Raiders you need to make use of their transport capacity - otherwise just take Las Contemptors. Given that our offensively strong units like Berzerkers and Havocs are pretty fragile (especially against numarines) this actually could be beneficial.

Double LRs with some combination of Berzerkers, CSM/Chosen and chaincannon Havocs inside could actually be pretty good. Have a DA for first turn and then a DP (or Abaddon?) sit near them for re-rolls as you move aggressively up the board. They are by no means unkillable but nothing in our Codex is.

saint_red wrote:
I think if you want to run Land Raiders you should be looking at just the regular ones. They are only 277 points now (BattleScribe is wrong) which is quite cheap.

If we're talking about Chaos Land Raiders, I'm afraid they're still 297 minimum. Non-Chaos Land Raiders are 277 at cheapest, but unfortunately we didn't (yet?) inherit this points cut.

I'm happy to pay 103pts to upgrade a LR with two LoS-ignoring soul bombards, +3W and a 4++. But you're right of course, it's way suboptimal in today's meta. CSM have a problem with being too glassy, just thinking of ways to address that which don't involve PB spam.

Yeah wow I totally screwed that maths up, you're spot on. Hopefully we see it applied in CA tho