Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
demontalons wrote: Being able to give warlords the demon keyword opens up a huge amount of overlapping buffs with demons.
I am disappointed they didn’t give legion specific psychic powers but I guess that’s coming when chaos gets brought up to speed in their codex.
Overall I think every legion got something that buffed it’s play style. Personally I think I’m going to start a emperors children force. 10 noise marines popping out of a dreadclaw, using that +1 strength and damage strat and then endless cacaphony is tastyyyy.
I was going to say it might be a bit ridiculous to give every Legion psychic powers but then I remembered Space Marines have psychic powers for almost every chapter
What's more ridiculous is thinking Chaos will ever get up to speed though, which is sad.
WB can give a Warlord +1M&S&A and POSSESSED & DAEMON, or a 6” +1A aura for WB daemons
A WB Stratagem lets you turn a character’s save roll into a 6, another one lets you turn a Sorcerer’s cast roll into the minimum needed to succeed (hello, auto Death Hex!)
WBDA relic lets you reroll prayer rolls and gain +1ld aura, another one gives +1 invuln
There are more and of course the other Legions but these were the standouts for me
It's kind of staggering how WB went from 'bottom of the bin' to 'actually this is kind of playable now'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/16 21:50:09
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
Then again the AL stratagems and traits are fluffy and seem good for shenanigans.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Yeah I'm gonna try it; to be honest, I absolutely adore some of the Forge World Word Bearer models and would love to use Erebus as a Sorcerer; the potential for just demolishing people using Death Hex is insane.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
This is all way beyond my expectations. It's nice to be gladly surprised
It seems really CP intensive though.
One of my favorite ideas so far is a las havocs castle in a piece of terrain. Devastation battery for reroll 1s to wound on vehicles on a sorc. A CL with reduce AP1 to AP0 within 6" and some cultists for grot shields. Add in the reduce AP by one strat every turn and you'll effectively still be at 2+ armor saves against AP2 weapons (if the ap reduction stacks between the strat and trait). Grot shield one unit per turn, throw a fnp on another one and let the third one tank the potential shots coming in. Plus, getting a 4+ save against AP3 weapons sound really tasty on its own.
Well,hightime for either r&h or rc Battalions I guess.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Gidun wrote: I'm thinking RC to try and add some melee threats aswell
Dp, Lord discordant, jump pack Lord?
Add 15 csm and You generated 8 cp. Further they don't require any additional help.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I'd probably throw in 2 DPs with wings and maybe a rhino for 10 of the 15 marines just to up the mobility of the DPs ever so slightly. 600~ points
Discolords are probably a good choice, but I just don't like them being targetable and I personally prefer DPs to be able to cast spells to snipe characters etc.
Gidun wrote: I'd probably throw in 2 DPs with wings and maybe a rhino for 10 of the 15 marines just to up the mobility of the DPs ever so slightly. 600~ points
Discolords are probably a good choice, but I just don't like them being targetable and I personally prefer DPs to be able to cast spells to snipe characters etc.
Honestly i'd skip the rhino if Mobility is what You want.
Discordants Imo need pack saturation,meaning that for All intents You need to run atleast 2-3 .
However I feel Like ca will slap 10-20 pts on them.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
The thinking with the rhino is pretty much just to have something stay ahead of the DPs in order to keep them untargetable :p
12"+D6 is enough to not hamper the princes' movement as opposed to the 6"+D6 they'd bring if they were footslogging. The rhino would be unneccesary if you were to bring something other than this batallion with 2 hqs and 3 troops as a melee threat though. But I'm looking at it as basically just a CP farm that can bring something to the table.
Red Butchers look brutal. Not being reliant on blockable teleports or a Spartan is excellent. Brilliant synergy with WT in a soup list. Ironically, a Slaanesh Daemons vanguard with loads of Fiends of Slaanesh could well be their trump card; ten Berzerker Terminators having aneurisms in your deployment zone on T1, and YOU CAN’T RUN AWAY FROM THEM? That’s borderline win-button stuff, especially if Counter units are eliminated.
Faster runners and a smashlord can join the T1 mayhem. Possessed to add some more W2 numbers to the fray, or raptors for cheap numbers. 9”,7/12”, +1” WT boost to charge.
EC Noise Marines look like they’re about to go up a tier. Three of them have more firepower than a Reaper. S9 blastmasters is significant where T8 is common. Honour the Prince plus +2M could make for some interesting gimmicks with Possessed Daemonkin.
Iron Warriors Obliterators look absolutely horrific. Full reroll on all random specs, all Phase, for 1CP? That’s probably getting FAQ’d. Until then, take six with MoS, budget 9CP for virus, VotLW, EC, and Devastation Battery. That extra attacks from 6’s to hit looks nice.
Viper’s Wail sniper ALJPCL using FO, an auto-include? Potentially beat a Vindicare at their own game.
Night Lords can’t seem to make up their mind if they want to tarpit units or scare them out of CC. Those are some contradictory, incompatible abilities - definitely not as easy to use as the stacking point-and-let-go brutality of the others. Vox Scream looks like a hard Counter to Rouboute.
I am right now painting up some Word Bearers Slaaneshi Possessed I’ve had waiting on my desk for months. +3A (HA, VA detachment, WT)? +1D? I am warptiming them on T1, with a *completely guaranteed* cast, with the new Slaanesh Daemon characters, and a Steed Lord with Axe Of You Can’t Run Away (wow, a HH weapon! NICE). DA boosts are great, I can see them helping me build more... mortal lists. Baleful Icon is an interesting buff for a gunline, especially if Warp Talons have entered your metagame. Epistle means that you’ve got a Ld10 aura, right?
So, in summary: we’ve got some very nice new plays, which seem to primarily rely on heavy CP expenditure. There’s not a whole lot of variety within a given Legion’s new tools. We don’t get a Combat Doctrines equivalent; it seems that whilst Adeptus Astartes are being set up as elite, insular, self-contained forces that don’t appreciate having a Loyal 32 ball and chain disrupting their plans, we are set up as either a Black Crusade fielding multiple Legions’ warbands together, or Daemonkin, or insurrectionists with all RaH or BSF mobs generating CP for our Heretics to burn through.
Armies that can block Stratagems could well be strong counters. Maybe even gatekeepers, for some of our lists.
I like Stratagem spam lists, DK, Possessed, and Black Crusades. My Word Bearers plus auxiliary other Legions are happy with this. I can see others with mono Legion collections being unhappy with the tools on offer, though
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 04:03:51
So I guess we have to wait to see what the actual wording is - but from what I can tell for the psychic test start for WB(?) it only makes it cast and unable to 'fail' if the initial test 'failed.' Who cares? Well you can't use the strat for example if your warptime went off on a 5 - you are stuck with what you rolled which is fully deniable. Obviously for deathhex this is a bit more sexy as the strat has a higher WC so you are more 'likely' to fail and be able to use the strat. But might want to hit the breaks on the idea of an 'undeniable' warptime, as you would have to roll an 'unlikely' 1-4...
Could be totally wrong as not sitting with book in hand - this was based off the read from Guerrilla miniature games...
P.S. If a test is denied it is not considered to have failed... it is instead negated - so you can't for example pop this strat in reaction to a successful deny the witch against you - at least per RAW
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 03:13:59
If cultists go back down to 4pts in CA its fun times, prob is ye gotta still take em
How essential are all five Spawn? You could squeeze another CP from an Outriders. Dunno how much you need, though
Honestly,why Not Make a full brigade instead?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
If cultists go back down to 4pts in CA its fun times, prob is ye gotta still take em
How essential are all five Spawn? You could squeeze another CP from an Outriders. Dunno how much you need, though
Honestly,why Not Make a full brigade instead?
The upgrading of Battalions and Brigades made Brigades inefficient
A Brigade (3-5HQ) yields as much CP as two battalions plus two of vanguard, Outriders, or spearhead (6-10HQ)
CSM are an army of aura & spell buff & beatstick Heroes, you generally get more out of 6 Heroes and 12 others than 5 Heroes and 15 others, especially where you had to make a bunch of the others into a token cheap slot filler
Heck, Disco Lord jamborees are viable, and they’re never squeezing into a Brigade
It’s not unviable, but even if you’re not going soup/Black Crusade/DK, or using multiple Specialist Detachments, it’s generally better to compartmentalise and prune the slot fillers to make the backbone units better. Like, a Battalion with three HQ and a full size Oblits unit is going to do more than splitting the Oblits apart to fill out 3 HS.
One thing where a Brigade can be handy is where you’ve got a cheap CD detachment. Like a Gnarlmaw, or three Heralds. Brigade can help you meet the detachment limits in formal play
i know, but it irks me to no end, that a brigade is just allways worse, especially for chaos.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Very interesting developments for AL Discolords and Oblits. Both get a huge defensive buff: A single Disco can now hit -3 to hit that can't be stopped (trait, native and DA prayer). That's getting close to AL being able to drop the pack mentality and run a single Disco instead of 2-3, which is a huge difference.
Oblits can't be targeted T1, and now when they drop can count as characters, for all intents and purposes, for 2cp. That's a huge buff. Combined with ALDS denial and movement shenanigans, I can foresee AL lists making it very hard to be defanged. That is the primary letdown of CSM afterall, so this could be big news.
grouchoben wrote: Very interesting developments for AL Discolords and Oblits. Both get a huge defensive buff: A single Disco can now hit -3 to hit that can't be stopped (trait, native and DA prayer). That's getting close to AL being able to drop the pack mentality and run a single Disco instead of 2-3, which is a huge difference.
Oblits can't be targeted T1, and now when they drop can count as characters, for all intents and purposes, for 2cp. That's a huge buff. Combined with ALDS denial and movement shenanigans, I can foresee AL lists making it very hard to be defanged. That is the primary letdown of CSM afterall, so this could be big news.
Definately thinking that AL havocks and oblits have a lot more oprions now. Really like the sniper bike lord too. He can reliably plink characters off whilst being fairly resilient to sniping himself and if he gets tarpitted can fall back and shoot for 1cp!
grouchoben wrote: Very interesting developments for AL Discolords and Oblits. Both get a huge defensive buff: A single Disco can now hit -3 to hit that can't be stopped (trait, native and DA prayer). That's getting close to AL being able to drop the pack mentality and run a single Disco instead of 2-3, which is a huge difference.
Oblits can't be targeted T1, and now when they drop can count as characters, for all intents and purposes, for 2cp. That's a huge buff. Combined with ALDS denial and movement shenanigans, I can foresee AL lists making it very hard to be defanged. That is the primary letdown of CSM afterall, so this could be big news.
Definately thinking that AL havocks and oblits have a lot more oprions now. Really like the sniper bike lord too. He can reliably plink characters off whilst being fairly resilient to sniping himself and if he gets tarpitted can fall back and shoot for 1cp!
Terminator Alpha Lord with the Combi Relic I guess for always shooting in full effect too? I dunno.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
For anyone interested, I did an in-depth review (on my Chaos-focused YouTube channel) of the new rules and what I think are the best new abilities and tricks for Chaos:
Another AL goodie, what does everyone think of Arkos in combination with We Are Alpharius strat? Make Arkos not the warlord but give him the Flames of Spite trait for mortal wounds on a 4+ for a hidden infiltrating chaf n' char killer?
Edit: mortals on a 4+ with VOTLW, normally mortals on a 5+
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/17 21:21:51
Honestly, the deployment shenanigans for Alpha Legion singlehandedly make them the most interesting imo in conjunction with ambush and the additional warlord trait.
The strongest I dunno but interesting for turning the faction on ist head.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
