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Not Online!!! wrote:
It's especially aggravating that the superior tac marines pays less then a CSM.

Chaos is also paying more for Land Raiders and Helbrutes vice the SM equivalents, so I imagine they'd be getting balanced out in CA.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
It's especially aggravating that the superior tac marines pays less then a CSM.

Chaos is also paying more for Land Raiders and Helbrutes vice the SM equivalents, so I imagine they'd be getting balanced out in CA.

And you still have the worse Version.

It's not like SM uses them anyways

To be fair, SM don't really have any units that are actually worth putting in a Land Raider. Assault Centurions, Aggressors and Smash Caps are the only melee units they have that are any good and a Land Raider does nothing for those units.

On the other hand, we actually have units that could benefit from a LR. If the LR drops to 277 as expected, I think you could make a case for Possessed, Zerkers, Plague Marines (with flails), Chosen and Havocs all hitching a ride. Still not 'competitive' as it stands but if those units get adjusted in CA19 or PA2 (please god) it could be interesting.

Personally I have been thinking about running 9 Possessed with an MoP in their specialist detachment. 3-5 attacks each at S6, AP-2 with Infernal Power up (1.36x modifier) is pretty good. Too expensive currently but honestly not far off.

Yoyoyo wrote:
It's not like SM uses them anyways

That ain't an improvement Pal



Automatically Appended Next Post:

saint_red wrote:
To be fair, SM don't really have any units that are actually worth putting in a Land Raider. Assault Centurions, Aggressors and Smash Caps are the only melee units they have that are any good and a Land Raider does nothing for those units.

On the other hand, we actually have units that could benefit from a LR. If the LR drops to 277 as expected, I think you could make a case for Possessed, Zerkers, Plague Marines (with flails), Chosen and Havocs all hitching a ride. Still not 'competitive' as it stands but if those units get adjusted in CA19 or PA2 (please god) it could be interesting.

Personally I have been thinking about running 9 Possessed with an MoP in their specialist detachment. 3-5 attacks each at S6, AP-2 with Infernal Power up (1.36x modifier) is pretty good. Too expensive currently but honestly not far off.

9 possesed, MoP, LR, and specialist detachment.
That is alot of buck for low ammount off bang.

If I Warptime a Land Raider and charge into a Leviathan with it, does that mean the Leviathan must fall back or can't shoot?

Land Raiders would be better off unarmed at 180pts just driving into enemy army with 6 rounds of smoke grenades instead of Lascannons

Possessed and MoP will do over 25 wounds to MEQ equivalent easily. That's without fight twice strat or VotLW. That's actually very good. Similar point per wound as the full chaincannon havoc combo which is mathematically one of our most efficient ways of damaging MEQs. Do the math and see for yourself.

Land Raiders - if they get a point cut - start to actually become serviceable. They will cost about the same as a 2xtwin las Contemptor + a rhino and fulfill the same roles but in one package. Can it still die? Yes. But everything in this game will die if your opponent tries hard enough.

Zerkers will be even better against MEQs but a little worse against higher T/Sv models and don't have the option for MWs that Possessed do. I believe that flail Plague Marines are actually the most mathematically efficient but I have yet to do the maths myself.

We also have a shed load of new stratagems, WTs and relics coming our way so it's highly likely there will be some combinations out there that make this setup even better.

Yoyoyo wrote:
If I Warptime a Land Raider and charge into a Leviathan with it, does that mean the Leviathan must fall back or can't shoot?

Land Raiders would be better off unarmed at 180pts just driving into enemy army with 6 rounds of smoke grenades instead of Lascannons

That would probably be a perfect Land raider.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
If I Warptime a Land Raider and charge into a Leviathan with it, does that mean the Leviathan must fall back or can't shoot?

Land Raiders would be better off unarmed at 180pts just driving into enemy army with 6 rounds of smoke grenades instead of Lascannons

That would probably be a perfect Land raider.

Then all we would need is a 250 point unarmed spartan. We could rename them rhino xl and xxl. Don't let your zerkers leave home without them.

Honestly, given that they have two sources of advance & charge, Possessed don’t need a Land Raider, regardless of LR efficiency. There’s not a hypothetical price on a LR that wouldn’t be better spent on more Possessed.

The biggest problem with Possessed is Primaris. They do similar things but better - especially now a veteran Intercessors sergeant can take a thunder hammer - and the improvements to Primaris mean that Possessed will find themselves in metagames geared up to kill 2W MEQ. They need a drop of, what, 4pts? I love them to bits but they really have been pushed to garage-gimmick tier

The issue hasn't changed: LRs need the ability to a) disembark their troops after moving and b) withdraw from combat and still shoot, even at a minus. It's mind-boggling that they're still where they were when 8th dropped two and a half years ago.

At 20ppm and 7" movement they are too slow to footslog in my opinion. I've tried it and it doesn't work. Yes they can get advance and charge but it forces you to go RC which isn't ideal or you have to bring a Slaanesh herald which costs even more points. A Slaanesh herald + 4 lascannons (+ unit to fire them) costs almost as much as a Land Raider anyway.

Disembark after moving would be great but it's not completely necessary. You're going to be killing screens T1 anyway.

 grouchoben wrote:
The issue hasn't changed: LRs need the ability to a) disembark their troops after moving and b) withdraw from combat and still shoot, even at a minus. It's mind-boggling that they're still where they were when 8th dropped two and a half years ago.

That's because gw doesn't care about lr because they want loyalist players to buy repulsors. And since our points are tied to their points regardless of the units use in the respective armies we get the same bad rules as them.

Same reason our inferior levi costs the same as their superior one.

I would hope for a drop in pts for the Predator too. Make all "old" plastic vehicle kits signature Chaos units. Rhinos, LR, Preds. I'm super surprised they haven't dumped the Drop Pod kit on us yet.

Give us your stuff.

saint_red wrote:
Possessed and MoP will do over 25 wounds to MEQ equivalent easily. That's without fight twice strat or VotLW. That's actually very good. Similar point per wound as the full chaincannon havoc combo which is mathematically one of our most efficient ways of damaging MEQs. Do the math and see for yourself.

Land Raiders - if they get a point cut - start to actually become serviceable. They will cost about the same as a 2xtwin las Contemptor + a rhino and fulfill the same roles but in one package. Can it still die? Yes. But everything in this game will die if your opponent tries hard enough.

Zerkers will be even better against MEQs but a little worse against higher T/Sv models and don't have the option for MWs that Possessed do. I believe that flail Plague Marines are actually the most mathematically efficient but I have yet to do the maths myself.

We also have a shed load of new stratagems, WTs and relics coming our way so it's highly likely there will be some combinations out there that make this setup even better.

Each Possessed gets an average of 3 attacks. (1d3+1)

That's 2 hits.
4/3 wounds.
8/9 unsaved.

So you'd need a little over 28 Possessed to do 25 wounds to MEQs.

MOP has the reroll hits and wounds of 1, right? I'd assume that's what you're using. That changes the math to...

3 attacks
7/3 hits
49/27 wounds
98/81 unsaved
1.21 wounds per Possessed

So a squad of 20 Possessed deal closer to 24 wounds than 25 to MEQ.

Not the squad you can fit in a Land Raider.

 JNAProductions wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Possessed and MoP will do over 25 wounds to MEQ equivalent easily. That's without fight twice strat or VotLW. That's actually very good. Similar point per wound as the full chaincannon havoc combo which is mathematically one of our most efficient ways of damaging MEQs. Do the math and see for yourself.

Land Raiders - if they get a point cut - start to actually become serviceable. They will cost about the same as a 2xtwin las Contemptor + a rhino and fulfill the same roles but in one package. Can it still die? Yes. But everything in this game will die if your opponent tries hard enough.

Zerkers will be even better against MEQs but a little worse against higher T/Sv models and don't have the option for MWs that Possessed do. I believe that flail Plague Marines are actually the most mathematically efficient but I have yet to do the maths myself.

We also have a shed load of new stratagems, WTs and relics coming our way so it's highly likely there will be some combinations out there that make this setup even better.

Each Possessed gets an average of 3 attacks. (1d3+1)

That's 2 hits.
4/3 wounds.
8/9 unsaved.

So you'd need a little over 28 Possessed to do 25 wounds to MEQs.

MOP has the reroll hits and wounds of 1, right? I'd assume that's what you're using. That changes the math to...

3 attacks
7/3 hits
49/27 wounds
98/81 unsaved
1.21 wounds per Possessed

So a squad of 20 Possessed deal closer to 24 wounds than 25 to MEQ.

Not the squad you can fit in a Land Raider.

not so great outlook imo.


Otoh, cultsts if AL can now get AP-1 autoguns.
Yes, cultist bombs are back on the menue.

You'll be able to give one unit of Possessed +1A through an EC Stratagem and grant +1A for a turn through their Specialist Detachment Stratagem. Against Imperium you'd also have DttFE. So their damage would be more along the lines of ~1.7W each for a squad of 10, going up to about ~3W each with Prescience and VotLW.\

Possessed don't have a strong profile but any big unit gets crazy when you stack enough buffs on them.

Can someone explain the new warlord trait for alpha legion? The way I read it, it's utter crud. 1 model in a cultist unit gets AP-1... what's the point??


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or would all models get the -1?

I'm hyped to try out some toughness 5 Emperor's children Terminators or Possessed, though the later is most likely still awful unfortunately.

2+D3 attacks each from strat. Re-roll hits and wounds of 1s from Infernal Power. 6s are MWs from Shepard of the True Faith. Equates to 16.92 wounds against MEQ with an additional 8.25MWs from Shepard. This includes DttFE. That's more than 25 wounds. This is from a squad of 9.

This is only one psychic power, a 1CP strat and a WT (either Field Commander or normal). You can further increase the damage by VotLW, fight twice strat, World Eaters trait, EC strat, re-rolling your Writhing Tentacles roll averages more attacks etc. Obviously it is not practical or realistic that you will have every buff up at all times, but there are enough buffs available here that you can turn on to get the job done.

The mistake people often make with Possessed is trying to get every single possible buff on them but they only need a couple to be dangerous.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also this is very silly, but indulge me.

Word Bearers Dark Apostle with Mark of Khorne, The Cursed Crozius, Omen of Potency, Wrathful Entreaty (Khorne prayer), new double prayer strat, VotLW and the +1A WT. 8 S8 attacks at AP-4 Damage 3, re-rolling wounds against Imperium units. That's 17.777 wounds against a no-invuln T8 target.

Seriously though, the new strat make Apostles much more versatile. You can give them your normal buff strat for the unit they are accompanying and then throw up Omen of Potency + Wrathful Entreaty if you ever get into melee and start thunder-punching nerds into the next millennium.

36 attacks
28 hits, 7 extra attacks for 49/9 more. 301/9
2,107/81 wounds, with 2,107/324 mortals. 6.50 mortal wounds
4,214/243 unsaved, for 17.34 damage

That's 23.84 damage. You probably had some rounding errors.

Edit: Unless it was 6s to-hit gives the mortals? In which case, there's 8.36 mortals.

Might have calculated the HQ as well.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Might have calculated the HQ as well.

That's a recipe for losing your HQ.

My mistake, you're right that I was calculating the MWs off the hit roll and not the wound roll.

Point still stands though. 23-24 wounds for 9 Possessed and MoP with not even full buffs is actually good. That will do more damage than the equivalent number of Berzerkers with (for example) an Exalted Champ to buff them.

Is this going to win the LVO for you? Probably not. But they aren't dogshit like everyone seems to suggest. PA2 will likely bring more interesting options to the table too.

So with the new Alpha Legion trait, you can technically turn a lord discordant into a 48 inch sniper that also deals out moral wounds. Seems like a phenomenally bad idea, but I find that hilarious.

 lare2 wrote:
Can someone explain the new warlord trait for alpha legion? The way I read it, it's utter crud. 1 model in a cultist unit gets AP-1... what's the point??


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or would all models get the -1?

Whole unit gets it from my understanding. Also I just realized this, could you VoTLW to make all your shots Ap 1 on 5's and 6's on a cultist unit? Granted that's not really the first thing I'd use that strat on but it's an option.

 Roknar wrote:
So with the new Alpha Legion trait, you can technically turn a lord discordant into a 48 inch sniper that also deals out moral wounds. Seems like a phenomenally bad idea, but I find that hilarious.

Otoh , sniping with a magma cutter is probably preeety bonkers

Winters SEO´s summary is up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AF4XtQanR4

some nice stuff in there...

PA2 content for CSM has been leaked.
^^ (I’m not a native English speaker)
https://youtu.be/raOS5Z1IQwg
And
https://youtu.be/aQ23BZfsYRI
Full text here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359378-chaos-rumors-in-psychic-awakening-2/page-12

Looks like Fleshmetal Exoskeleton from the Codex isn't repeated in the book, which is a bit weird given the wording of the Artefact section (seems to imply you can't take it alongside the new Iron Warrior artefacts.

Emperors Children also get one of the best stratagems in the game imo; being able to turn any of the two dice used in a charge roll to a flat six is bonkers, especially since there's nothing to prevent you from re-rolling the other die.