Switch Theme:

An end to Era, the death of the space marine boogieman.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Well Gazz can also 1 shot a knight. Probably better off just Dajump Ghaz in that sitatuion. The point ofc is that intercessors are 100% worthless vs a knight - where mass boys is pretty effective.
Intercessors are worthless vs a lot of things. They are really only good against T4 or less infantry. Boys have the volume of damage to hurt anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 15:46:32


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
30 Goff scarboys can kill literally 1 shot a knight

How?

They need a nob to do it but they average about 12 damage per round and they can fight twice. It would require a small amount of luck. Or reroll 1's buff from gazz to really garantee it.


I do love Xenomancer doing his mental gymnastics to explain why HIS units are fine but everyone else is broken OP (read signature line for example). Generally speaking, in the hundreds upon hundreds of games ive played with orkz, and especially the games i have played in 9th with their new/nerfed close combat rules, you are likely getting between 10-15 ork boyz into CC on the turn they charge unless you are incredibly lucky.

But lets assume you magically get all 30 goff scarboyz into CC with a knight. that is 116 attacks for 90 hits, these result in an average of 30 wounds. Against a Knights 3+ save that is 10 dmg. The nob swings, (I'm assuming you gave him a PK because you are you) that is 4 attacks hitting on 4s for 2 hits, wounding on 3s for 1.33 wounds and against its 5+ that is 0.88 chance to inflict D3 dmg or averages about 1.76dmg. So 11.76dmg. Lets go with the cheapest knight, so a gallant. At most it lost 12 wounds and possibly 11. For sake of killing this knight lets say it lost all 12. So now the Knight is on its 2nd tier, it gets 15 attacks hitting on 3s for 10 hits at S8. Those 10 hits turn into 8.33 wounds and 8.33 dead Ork boyz because AP-2. The ork boyz than pop 3CP stratagem to fight twice. Sadly they have lost 8 boyz so no longer get 116 attacks and instead get 84 for about 63 hits which turns into 21ish wounds for 7 dmg, nob swings and does the 1.76 again. Definitely less than 12 so the knight survives. On the knights turn it retreats out of combat because its titanic and the remaining forces light up the surviving boyz....weird how those knights chose not to shoot the boyz off the table turn 1 but it is what it is. Now, if you turn on reality again, those 30 boyz MIGHT get 15 into combat but only after losing a fairly sizeable chunk of boyz (maybe even the dreaded 11 which reduces their # of attacks by 1).

 Xenomancers wrote:

Intercessors should contribute more from turn 1 because they take a big risk of dying in droves to the right weapons while being really expensive. Orks dont really care what you shoot at them. They only care about the number of shots really. So there is 1 counter to orks. Lots of shots. You can counter marines with AP - weapon damage - and high str attacks go a lot farther against higher point per wound units (and ofc) lots of shots works too - the only thing marines do really well against is 0AP attacks - which ork boys have a lot of.

There is literally no issue with ork boys. You wanna talk about a bad unit. A hormagant is a bad unit. That unit needs a big buff. Ork boys though...They are totally fine. They shouldn't be buffed at all because they are in winning lists literally being spammed. That is a sign that a unit is fine. Perhaps with a nerf to some other things like "dajump" and "KFF" they could see some improvement or point drops.


yes...because orkz die less often than Marines turn 1 which is why orkz are cheaper than Marines....LMAO! Also "Higher point per wound units" Orkz are 8pts for 1 wound. Tacs are 9pts per wound and Intercessors are 10. Keep in mind those Orkz are also getting a magical 6+ save compared to that terrible 3+ save you think never works and/or is so pathetic that every weapon in the game ignores.

There is no issue with ork boyz but they should get "some improvement or point drops" if they nerf Da Jump AND Kff....wow. literally Fething wow. KFF was already nerfed with a sledgehammer, literally removing 90% of its impact on the game. Prior editions you could buy 1 KFF and get a 5++ on ANY unit that TOUCHED the bubble, now the entire unit has to be under it. As far as "Da Jump"...A once per turn psychic ability which gives boyz a 9' charge is somehow OP? Really? that is the logic you want to use? Ok, what happens if that charge fails? the boyz are dead the following shooting phase, congrats on pissing away 240pts. The irony here is that a lot of the recent ork lists haven't used either of the 2 things you think are OP or needing to be nerfed in order for Ork boyz to get some buffs. I'm sure you are fine with your tacs doubling their # of attacks, shots and wounds while only going up 3pts.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I was only disproving the nonsense that intercessors have anywhere near the damage output of orks in melee. I wasn't making any other kind of claim. Other than maybe that intercessors are better than ork boys in general atm...
Yes normal intercessors who have 3x the armor save, 2x the wounds, 2.5x the range with 2x the shots with +1 ap do in fact have fewer CC attacks than Ork boyz. Congrats on pointing out a basic statistic that point for point an Ork Boy has more melee dmg potential than a Space Marine Intercessor. Your big brain astounds us all. Sadly, nobody has made an argument against your rather pedantic argument that in a vacuum orkz have more potential. they are in fact arguing that in REAL GAMES those boyz will literally NEVER get that full potential. Again, i've played orkz for over a decade I have played hundreds of games if not thousands. In all that time I don't believe I have EVER gotten an entire mob into CC intact and with all 30 bodies within CC range. There are just too many variables to account for which makes this statistically rare bordering on the unheard of.

The scenario I pointed out originally, several pages back, was that point for point those regular shooty intercessors would BEAT ork boyz in CC if they got the charge off. And that wasn't a real scenario either because it assumed the Intercessors wouldn't be blasting the Ork boyz before they even got into CC. The point that was made was that Intercessors are point for point able to beat Tau firewarriors at range AND beat Genestealers in CC or tie Ork boyz depending on who gets the charge off (If Marines charge they win, if Orkz charge orkz win). So it isn't a question of "Maybe that intercessors are better than ork boyz" that is a statistical fact born out by both mathhammer and basic table top gaming. The only place you can claim that ork boyz are better is in tournaments, but that isn't because ork boyz are better, its because the meta is designed to face off against T4 3+ 2 wound models rather than T4 6+ 1 wound models. If the tournament lists currently bringing a plethora of Melta weapons and Heavy bolters switched over instead to hurricane bolters and other HRoF weapons at the same rate as they were brought to bear against Space Marines, than those Ork boyz lists would disappear entirely from the competitive scene.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is a durable multi purpose unit. They do literally Identical damage in melee and shooting in most cases. Plus t4 3+ save with 2 wounds is about the most common profile to build against in the game and as a result rarely ever gets to use it's 2 wound stat (cause its easy to take away) and -AP is literally everywhere.


Glad we agree. This literally highlights the points I just made. Intercessors, and SM are so good and so prevalent that competitive lists are built to counter them as a norm and despite that they are still placing regularly in tournaments while Orkz who run counter meta have a hard time placing at all. T4 3+ 2 wounds is the most common profile to build against, because of what i just mentioned.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Its not the same...it is 3 times less. LOL.
Just going to point this out again, you are yet again Correct, Ork boyz at full strength have 120 attacks compared to an intercessor unit only have 32 ish. But again i'll point out that those intercessors are capable of inflicting 20 S4 Ap1 shots turn 1 while the boyz can't accomplish anything for the first turn and likely the 2nd unless you deep strike them with Da Jump and run the rather significant chance of having your unit wiped out...especially against Marine players who can just use Auspex Scan to light it up, and than use overwatch to light it up a second time. I've had this happen more than once to me. Thankfully Aggressors got nerfed and are no longer capable of gutting a unit using that stratagem. Never mind the chance of actually failing the charge and losing your entire unit the following shooting phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.


Again, find me ANYWHERE someone is disagreeing with your basic statistics that any 3rd grader can show? Nobody is. they are yet again pointing out that your argument is based on RAW potential rather than AVERAGE and likely potential. You won't ever get 30 boyz into CC, you won't ever have intercessors just waltzing up to a unit of boyz without first spending at least 1 shooting phase whittling them down etc. Its like you want to play dumb when it benefits your point but than bring up the most ridiculous argument that only works on planet bowling ball and against a muppet who lets you maul them







Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Well Gazz can also 1 shot a knight. Probably better off just Dajump Ghaz in that sitatuion. The point ofc is that intercessors are 100% worthless vs a knight - where mass boys is pretty effective.
Intercessors are worthless vs a lot of things. They are really only good against T4 or less infantry. Boys have the volume of damage to hurt anything.


....jesus ok lets break down yet another claim of "orkz iz 2 powerfel boss!" from the mental giant that is Xenomancer.

1: Ghaz can not be "Da Jumped" hes a monster, you can only "Da Jump" infantry, which ghaz is not.

2: Ghaz has 6 attacks on the charge at S14. 6 attacks rerolling 1s and hitting on 2s. lets assume all 6 hits because why not. that is still only averaging 4 wounds, no save since AP-4 which means he does.....16dmg, 8 short of 1 shotting a Knight. Also, Ghaz can not fight twice because yet again he is not INFANTRY.

3: In the real world, not planet fantasy where all your calculations take place, 30 boyz are useless against a Knight for likely 2 turns, until they can get into CC, which means they are likely going to get gutted before they can get into CC, where as those worthless intercessors are blasting away turn 1 with 20 shots, 14ish hits, 2.3 wounds which inflict 1.15 dmg a turn. Not bad for a 200pt infantry unit which isn't designed in the slightest to beat a Knight. We could always just move the goal posts like you did by Buffing those 240pts of boyz with 4CP worth of stratagems and somehow getting them all into CC unscathed but I think the point has been made sufficiently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 16:12:44


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






I am not even gonna respond to such a frivolous wall of text. Thank you for appreciating my genius though - as that appears to be the main thesis of said wall of text.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 16:17:22


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





SemperMortis wrote:
Orkz are 8pts for 1 wound. Tacs are 9pts per wound and Intercessors are 10.


I think Xenos does a lot of reaching, but there are kernels of truth in there even if his approach is not good. Mork knows ( or was it Gork? ) my approaches haven't always been good.

This particular of wounds per point metric I don't much like anymore given the state of the game and weapons. For a scenario where either unit is fighting a knight those stomps would kill 4.4 marines ( 80 or 90 points ) and 6.7 boyz ( 53 points ). Orks would, if all allowed to fight, do two times as much damage or more to a knight as a unit of 10 Intercessors double tapping and then charging.

Does that example even matter? I don't think so.

Marines are strong, but not OP. Boyz are good, but are subject to some harsher conditions and other potential opportunities.

Finding ways to use units effectively in the moment is part of the mental challenge of the game.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Orkz are 8pts for 1 wound. Tacs are 9pts per wound and Intercessors are 10.


I think Xenos does a lot of reaching, but there are kernels of truth in there even if his approach is not good. Mork knows ( or was it Gork? ) my approaches haven't always been good.

This particular of wounds per point metric I don't much like anymore given the state of the game and weapons. For a scenario where either unit is fighting a knight those stomps would kill 4.4 marines ( 80 or 90 points ) and 6.7 boyz ( 53 points ). Orks would, if all allowed to fight, do two times as much damage or more to a knight as a unit of 10 Intercessors double tapping and then charging.

Does that example even matter? I don't think so.

Marines are strong, but not OP. Boyz are good, but are subject to some harsher conditions and other potential opportunities.

Finding ways to use units effectively in the moment is part of the mental challenge of the game.


I agree 100% with you on this. I was just pointing out the disparity of points per wound that he was stressing. I think an extra 2pts per wound is fair for having a 3x better armor save, and no matter what anyone says, it gets used a hell of a lot more often than my 6+ save. In my opinion Boyz should be 7pts, maybe even back down to 6, but we wont' get that, instead GW is going to buff them with "durability" but price them more harshly than they did when they doubled Marines wounds. Keep in mind, and I know I harp on this but, GW doubled Marine shooting, doubled their CC attacks and doubled their wounds in a single edition and said "meh 3pts should be enough" while at the same time giving orkz DDD, Ere we go, base S4 and reducing our movement and saying "Meh 2pts should be enough".

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Xenomancers wrote:
Well Gazz can also 1 shot a knight. Probably better off just Dajump Ghaz in that sitatuion. The point ofc is that intercessors are 100% worthless vs a knight - where mass boys is pretty effective.
Intercessors are worthless vs a lot of things. They are really only good against T4 or less infantry. Boys have the volume of damage to hurt anything.
^The moral of the story?

Tacticals are better than Intercessors.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Orkz are 8pts for 1 wound. Tacs are 9pts per wound and Intercessors are 10.


I think Xenos does a lot of reaching, but there are kernels of truth in there even if his approach is not good. Mork knows ( or was it Gork? ) my approaches haven't always been good.

This particular of wounds per point metric I don't much like anymore given the state of the game and weapons. For a scenario where either unit is fighting a knight those stomps would kill 4.4 marines ( 80 or 90 points ) and 6.7 boyz ( 53 points ). Orks would, if all allowed to fight, do two times as much damage or more to a knight as a unit of 10 Intercessors double tapping and then charging.

Does that example even matter? I don't think so.

Marines are strong, but not OP. Boyz are good, but are subject to some harsher conditions and other potential opportunities.

Finding ways to use units effectively in the moment is part of the mental challenge of the game.

Aye, all of this fighting with calculators on Planet Bowling Ball stuff has a tendency to break down once the models and dice hit the board.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Yeah. If we're talking raw numbers here, I can make an Intercessor squad that deals an average of 33 damage to an Imperial Knight in melee. Not Assault Intercessor-regular Intercessor.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Well Gazz can also 1 shot a knight. Probably better off just Dajump Ghaz in that sitatuion. The point ofc is that intercessors are 100% worthless vs a knight - where mass boys is pretty effective.
Intercessors are worthless vs a lot of things. They are really only good against T4 or less infantry. Boys have the volume of damage to hurt anything.
^The moral of the story?

Tacticals are better than Intercessors.


Long live the tacs!!

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah. If we're talking raw numbers here, I can make an Intercessor squad that deals an average of 33 damage to an Imperial Knight in melee. Not Assault Intercessor-regular Intercessor.

Uhhh? No? How does one make killer intercessors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Tbh Orks swarming and bringing down a knight doesn't feel Iike a problem to me after GW took away the ability of Tankbustas to all plant their meltabomb equivalents on vehicles.

Or an issue with the wound chart.

One thing you won't hear me say is how it makes Orks broken in comparison to Intercessors.

Also, how much is that squad of Skarboyz and Nob?

I didn't say it's a problem. I just said it's something that they can do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 18:53:14


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer Sergeant and nine regular dudes.
Assault Doctrine, White Scars, Chapter Master (will kill it just fine without Chapter Master and just Captain, but 33 is with CM), Lieutenant, Born Heroes Chapter Tactic, +1 To-Wound Litany, Might of Heroes on the Sergeant, +1 Strength Ancients Banner.

You get...

5 attacks at S10 +1 to-wound AP-3 D5, hitting on a 3+ rerollable. That does 3.6 unsaved wounds on average, for 18 average damage, though realistically it's 15 or 20.
27 attacks at S5 +1 to-wound AP-1 D2, hitting on a 2+ rerollable. That does 7.7 unsaved wounds on average, for 15 average damage, though again, it's really gonna be 14 or 16 most of the time.

Edit: I don't expect anyone to ever ACTUALLY do this, but it's fully possible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 18:58:14


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Orkz are 8pts for 1 wound. Tacs are 9pts per wound and Intercessors are 10.


I think Xenos does a lot of reaching, but there are kernels of truth in there even if his approach is not good. Mork knows ( or was it Gork? ) my approaches haven't always been good.

This particular of wounds per point metric I don't much like anymore given the state of the game and weapons. For a scenario where either unit is fighting a knight those stomps would kill 4.4 marines ( 80 or 90 points ) and 6.7 boyz ( 53 points ). Orks would, if all allowed to fight, do two times as much damage or more to a knight as a unit of 10 Intercessors double tapping and then charging.

Does that example even matter? I don't think so.

Marines are strong, but not OP. Boyz are good, but are subject to some harsher conditions and other potential opportunities.

Finding ways to use units effectively in the moment is part of the mental challenge of the game.

I agree with you. I will work on the approach. A little difficult when everyone is just antagonizing me and ignoring everything valid I say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer Sergeant and nine regular dudes.
Assault Doctrine, White Scars, Chapter Master (will kill it just fine without Chapter Master and just Captain, but 33 is with CM), Lieutenant, Born Heroes Chapter Tactic, +1 To-Wound Litany, Might of Heroes on the Sergeant, +1 Strength Ancients Banner.

You get...

5 attacks at S10 +1 to-wound AP-3 D5, hitting on a 3+ rerollable. That does 3.6 unsaved wounds on average, for 18 average damage, though realistically it's 15 or 20.
27 attacks at S5 +1 to-wound AP-1 D2, hitting on a 2+ rerollable. That does 7.7 unsaved wounds on average, for 15 average damage, though again, it's really gonna be 14 or 16 most of the time.

Edit: I don't expect anyone to ever ACTUALLY do this, but it's fully possible.

That is pretty disgusting. WS super doctrine isn't exactly balanced though. How does the WS sargent get an MC/hammer?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 19:06:51


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Tbh Orks swarming and bringing down a knight doesn't feel Iike a problem to me after GW took away the ability of Tankbustas to all plant their meltabomb equivalents on vehicles.

Or an issue with the wound chart.

One thing you won't hear me say is how it makes Orks broken in comparison to Intercessors.

Also, how much is that squad of Skarboyz and Nob?

I didn't say it's a problem. I just said it's something that they can do.

Spoiler:
 Xenomancers wrote:
. . .
You are making the same claim that has been argued from the start as being bunk. You are overlooking the fact ork boys do way more damage in combat than marines of pretty much any type - at least out of the intercessors we have been posting the data on.

Daedalus also disproved (in picture form) bunk the contention that you can't get ork units to bear on a target - even against small units (which you wont be going for anyways) 30 Goff scarboys can kill literally 1 shot a knight - intercessors can't do that.

Given the context of the quote, it sure does seem like you're calling it out as a problem.

So is the Ork-Boyz-damage-potential a problem or not? Aka, why are we here?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope




North Carolina

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Orkz are 8pts for 1 wound. Tacs are 9pts per wound and Intercessors are 10.


I think Xenos does a lot of reaching, but there are kernels of truth in there even if his approach is not good. Mork knows ( or was it Gork? ) my approaches haven't always been good.

This particular of wounds per point metric I don't much like anymore given the state of the game and weapons. For a scenario where either unit is fighting a knight those stomps would kill 4.4 marines ( 80 or 90 points ) and 6.7 boyz ( 53 points ). Orks would, if all allowed to fight, do two times as much damage or more to a knight as a unit of 10 Intercessors double tapping and then charging.

Does that example even matter? I don't think so.

Marines are strong, but not OP. Boyz are good, but are subject to some harsher conditions and other potential opportunities.

Finding ways to use units effectively in the moment is part of the mental challenge of the game.


Maybe I'm just getting sentimental in my old age, but you're always the first/only guy to actually sympathize/empathize with the other side, Daed, even if they're wrong/lacking. That's awesome, thank you for making this forum a better place even if we disagree a lot.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Maybe I'm just getting sentimental in my old age, but you're always the first/only guy to actually sympathize/empathize with the other side, Daed, even if they're wrong/lacking. That's awesome, thank you for making this forum a better place even if we disagree a lot.


That's kind of you to say. I know I haven't always been fun to discuss things with, but I've been trying harder ( though I've probably come across in other threads as terse today ).

I think my mental state has improved a lot over the past few months, which helps.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think its very clear that marines are definitely better than boyz point for point like they are vs pretty much every faction. The difference is that every list is basically set to kill MEQs, as that is the meta and games-workshop is ofc well aware.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

bat702 wrote:
I think its very clear that marines are definitely better than boyz point for point like they are vs pretty much every faction. The difference is that every list is basically set to kill MEQs, as that is the meta and games-workshop is ofc well aware.


The 'objective' value of Marines certainly is hard to assess when they're the default and thus what everyone optimizes their army to kill. Tacticals and Intercessors beat the snot out of most other factions' basic infantry, but now you can take them down by spamming Heavy Bolters. Marine players feel like their units are made of paper, non-Marines feel pigeonholed into taking anti-Marine units and weapons and like their infantry are chaff, nobody wins.

It's always been this way- it just used to revolve around AP3 rather than D2. Scroll back through old topics and you'll find Marine players in older editions lamenting going up against massed plasma guns.

I think GW's decided to err on the side of making that basic Marine profile punch above its cost for a basic infantry unit in part because of their status as the meta-definer, so that Marines feel 'right' to their owners even when being tailored against. If a T4/W2/3+ profile were something atypical rather than half the armies you'll fight against in a pick-up game or tournament, I imagine Intercessors would feel a lot more oppressive.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




At the start of 9th edition I believe marines/chaos marines were something around 75% of all the armies you would face.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 catbarf wrote:
bat702 wrote:
I think its very clear that marines are definitely better than boyz point for point like they are vs pretty much every faction. The difference is that every list is basically set to kill MEQs, as that is the meta and games-workshop is ofc well aware.

It's always been this way- it just used to revolve around AP3 rather than D2. Scroll back through old topics and you'll find Marine players in older editions lamenting going up against massed plasma guns.

I only have a slight nitpick about this. For older editions, you typically jumped from AP4 to AP2 for assessing a weapons value. Most stuff made specifically with AP3 in mind we're usually too expensive, but grabbing just some cheap AP2 worked fine, since obviously you wanted cheap and for it to work against anything.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I only have a slight nitpick about this. For older editions, you typically jumped from AP4 to AP2 for assessing a weapons value. Most stuff made specifically with AP3 in mind we're usually too expensive, but grabbing just some cheap AP2 worked fine, since obviously you wanted cheap and for it to work against anything.


You're right, and I could have worded it better. I was trying to say that because Marines have always been the most numerous army, AP3 was the breakpoint that you had in mind when building an army. AP2 was of course even better since you could deal with Terminators too. S8 was a plus for Instant Death. So a take-all-comers list was chock-full of Marine-killing guns because at least half of your opponents would be Marines.

Marine players feeling like their models die too easily for their cost, despite comparing very favorably to the infantry of other factions on paper, is a perpetual complaint. I see only a couple of ways to address it:
1. Amp up Marines to the point where it's a fair fight against a tailored anti-Marine list. Basically the 8.5 codex; not fun for anyone besides the Marines, and with the 9th Ed codex I think they realized that the 8.5 codex was a mistake.
2. Adjust weapon/target profiles so that there isn't such a big difference between generalist and anti-Marine weaponry. GW went in the opposite direction by making Marines W2 and more expensive, so now D2 weapons are more efficient than ever.
3. Make T4/3+ not the most common target profile in the game, so tailoring against Marines isn't the go-to.

None of those three seem likely, so I guess this is what we have to live with. Don't mean to grind my axe but this is what you get when a single faction dominates the game in terms of player representation.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I only have a slight nitpick about this. For older editions, you typically jumped from AP4 to AP2 for assessing a weapons value. Most stuff made specifically with AP3 in mind we're usually too expensive, but grabbing just some cheap AP2 worked fine, since obviously you wanted cheap and for it to work against anything.

Actually AP3 was one of the rarest values in the game. It's not because it was too expensive, it just wasn't as available and/or on anti-Vehicle weaponry. In Imperium weapons AP3 was Krak Missiles and artillery. Meanwhile, also readily available was Plasma, Melta, and Rending weapons. Even as you look across the Xenos weaponry, it remains the same. It changed a little bit when Power Swords became AP:3, but that tended to be the most common version by a long shot when looking at taking out Infantry.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit





United States

Thank Bligh Horus Heresy still exists. My brain hurts from reading this.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I only have a slight nitpick about this. For older editions, you typically jumped from AP4 to AP2 for assessing a weapons value. Most stuff made specifically with AP3 in mind we're usually too expensive, but grabbing just some cheap AP2 worked fine, since obviously you wanted cheap and for it to work against anything.


You're right, and I could have worded it better. I was trying to say that because Marines have always been the most numerous army, AP3 was the breakpoint that you had in mind when building an army. AP2 was of course even better since you could deal with Terminators too. S8 was a plus for Instant Death. So a take-all-comers list was chock-full of Marine-killing guns because at least half of your opponents would be Marines.

Marine players feeling like their models die too easily for their cost, despite comparing very favorably to the infantry of other factions on paper, is a perpetual complaint. I see only a couple of ways to address it:
1. Amp up Marines to the point where it's a fair fight against a tailored anti-Marine list. Basically the 8.5 codex; not fun for anyone besides the Marines, and with the 9th Ed codex I think they realized that the 8.5 codex was a mistake.
2. Adjust weapon/target profiles so that there isn't such a big difference between generalist and anti-Marine weaponry. GW went in the opposite direction by making Marines W2 and more expensive, so now D2 weapons are more efficient than ever.
3. Make T4/3+ not the most common target profile in the game, so tailoring against Marines isn't the go-to.

None of those three seem likely, so I guess this is what we have to live with. Don't mean to grind my axe but this is what you get when a single faction dominates the game in terms of player representation.

Imo the issue stems from the proliferation of high-AP weapons that began around 5th edition. Prior to that it was actually pretty difficult to amass lots of high-AP weapons, and especially difficult to amass them on durable platforms. This meant that in most firefights against "normal" units, the 3+ save was still quite valuable, and there was an ability for a Marine player to focus counterplay against the high-AP weapons.

5th edition began to open up high AP weapons in a big way, and Marines were no exception. Case in point, a 4th Edition Marine Veteran Squad was basically a Tactical Squad with +1 Ld. and +1 Attack. For 5th Edition they became what we know as Sternguard. . . who can give EVERY model a Combi-weapon, and who could also bring Specialist ammunition with AP3. (A similar thing happened to Command Squads/Company Veterans). Models like Riptides started showing up, very durable units with gobs of high AP firepower. (In addition, 5th ed brought TLOS, increasing visibility on a lot more tables.) Naturally people brought more of these high-AP weapons, and the 3+ save suffered as a result.

The proliferation of high-AP weapons has stuck. During 8th I found I could fairly easily build an army that could deliver 90+ AP-3 shots using a combination of Plasma and Grav. This could all be BS3+ with Chapter Master rerolls and Lt. rerolls if I coordinated it right. It was an absolutely stupid level of firepower against a 3+ save army.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Tbh Orks swarming and bringing down a knight doesn't feel Iike a problem to me after GW took away the ability of Tankbustas to all plant their meltabomb equivalents on vehicles.

Or an issue with the wound chart.

One thing you won't hear me say is how it makes Orks broken in comparison to Intercessors.

Also, how much is that squad of Skarboyz and Nob?

I didn't say it's a problem. I just said it's something that they can do.

Spoiler:
 Xenomancers wrote:
. . .
You are making the same claim that has been argued from the start as being bunk. You are overlooking the fact ork boys do way more damage in combat than marines of pretty much any type - at least out of the intercessors we have been posting the data on.

Daedalus also disproved (in picture form) bunk the contention that you can't get ork units to bear on a target - even against small units (which you wont be going for anyways) 30 Goff scarboys can kill literally 1 shot a knight - intercessors can't do that.

Given the context of the quote, it sure does seem like you're calling it out as a problem.

So is the Ork-Boyz-damage-potential a problem or not? Aka, why are we here?
Nah what you are detecting is the annoyance that people can't accept basic facts about orks melee damage.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah what you are detecting is the annoyance that people can't accept basic facts about orks melee damage.


I think they get hung up when you couch it in terms that make marines seem soft or weak by comparison. Meet in the middle.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah what you are detecting is the annoyance that people can't accept basic facts about orks melee damage.


I think they get hung up when you couch it in terms that make marines seem soft or weak by comparison. Meet in the middle.
It's because he seems to habitually overstate things and put them in weird contexts. Take this quote: "You are overlooking the fact ork boys do way more damage in combat than marines of pretty much any type - at least out of the intercessors we have been posting the data on."

So is it Intercessors we're concerned about? If so:
A: Why is it a problem* that a more CC dedicated unit can out-damage a non-CC dedicated unit in CC.
B: Be specific about the terms and be flexible in that interpretation. It's been shown that some WS Intercessors can apparently do crazy stuff, making Xeno's statement less true.

Or is it the comparison about "marines of pretty much any type"? In which case I'm guessing Vanguard Vets would have some interesting things to say about that.

It's a combination of initial hyperbole and refusal to acknowledge any error or correction.

*and supposedly it's not a problem. . . in which case what is the purpose of the statement?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah what you are detecting is the annoyance that people can't accept basic facts about orks melee damage.


I think they get hung up when you couch it in terms that make marines seem soft or weak by comparison. Meet in the middle.
It's because he seems to habitually overstate things and put them in weird contexts. Take this quote: "You are overlooking the fact ork boys do way more damage in combat than marines of pretty much any type - at least out of the intercessors we have been posting the data on."

So is it Intercessors we're concerned about? If so:
A: Why is it a problem* that a more CC dedicated unit can out-damage a non-CC dedicated unit in CC.
B: Be specific about the terms and be flexible in that interpretation. It's been shown that some WS Intercessors can apparently do crazy stuff, making Xeno's statement less true.

Or is it the comparison about "marines of pretty much any type"? In which case I'm guessing Vanguard Vets would have some interesting things to say about that.

It's a combination of initial hyperbole and refusal to acknowledge any error or correction.

*and supposedly it's not a problem. . . in which case what is the purpose of the statement?

Intercessors 90% of the time are going to be shooty intercessors with auto bolters. It can safely be assumed these are the intercessors we were talking about. Plus we also did comparison to assault intercessors (an inferior unit practically no one takes)The choppy boys still outperform them damage wise without any gimmicks. That is the point.

I have no issue with it. Just don't make silly statements like - intercessors out melee ork boys which is what was claimed. That is only true if the units go head to head on planet bowling ball with no other units involved.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah what you are detecting is the annoyance that people can't accept basic facts about orks melee damage.


I think they get hung up when you couch it in terms that make marines seem soft or weak by comparison. Meet in the middle.

I pretty much assume that when I say that "intercessors are a better unit than ork boys right now" It puts those "soft" concerns to rest. Both are competitive units. I am no armature on dakka though. 80% of these posters are literally just here to bash marines. GW rule team is so effing pathetic that such nonsense has to be refuted.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 19:52:43


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Xenomancers wrote:
Just don't make silly statements like - intercessors out melee ork boys which is what was claimed.
I see even that statement as requiring a qualifier. Are we talking per model, per point, in a 1 v. 1 fight, in a unit-to-unit fight? (also with or without Strats, Sergeant upgrades, etc.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/22 19:56:21


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






@ Xeno: as said, I very much suspect you are hung up on this statement back from page 6...

SemperMortis wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
To me if they can fix the constant feeling that my best isn't as good as their weakest I think it would be better.


I mean....that sounds like an extreme exaggeration/example but yet again I want to point out that point for point a Space Marine intercessor will beat ork boyz in close combat if they get to swing first.

10 intercessors = 200pts, 25 boyz = 200pts

10 intercessors get 31 attacks for 20.66 hits, 10.33 wounds and against orkz that is 8.66 dead orkz, or likely 9.

The remaining 15 boyz get 45 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dmg for 2 dead Primaris Marines and 1 wounded Marine, the Nob swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits 1.33 wounds and a .44 chance to wound 1 Marine, so likely he is fine.

orkz lose 72pts of boyz, Primaris lose 40pts, 50 if you count the half wound and 60pts if you are really unlucky and the Nob inflicts 1 dmg.

Keep in mind, that is assuming the intercessors didn't blast the orkz with their rifles before charging in. Assuming they did that, you can scratch 6-7 more boys off the list before they even get into CC.



If so that kind of spun out of the original context as it was just claimed they win out if going first. Which is still pretty awesome for a troops choice that is intended as shooty unit.
I just mention it because I have the impression the memory about what was said about the Intercessors fighting prowess got a bit ... exagerated moving through the pages

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

I pretty much assume that when I say that "intercessors are a better unit than ork boys right now" It puts those "soft" concerns to rest. Both are competitive units. I am no armature on dakka though. 80% of these posters are literally just here to bash marines. GW rule team is so effing pathetic that such nonsense has to be refuted.


Take away the Marine bias in competitive games, IE, take away 1/3rd of your games likely to be against Marines and make them a similar amount to other lists so that nobody builds a specific list against T4 2W 3+ save. Those boyz go from a competitive anti-meta list to hot garbage in under a second.

A while ago while discussing competitive ork lists someone brought up an Ork list that won a GT in Australia I believe, guess which list it almost lost against? The SOB list that brought a dozen or so Heavy bolters. why? Because even though they are designed now to kill Heavy infantry, they still had a higher ROF than what a lot of other factions were bringing to deal with Marines.

If you took away the competitive need for anti-marine weaponry to the extent that it currently exists and everyone actually brought Competitive TAC lists the difference in ROF most armies would bring would utterly destroy any hope of Ork infantry lists.

So in a way, because Marines are so ridiculously over represented at tournaments you have people like Xeno claiming Ork boyz are competitive in the same sense that Intercessors are, because that all important T4 3+ 2W durability profile isn't worth all that much when everyone list tailors against it which artificially increases the value of Ork boyz with their throw away durability stats.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: