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I don't really see what forbidding measurement brings to the game. Especially when the only reason it's important is because they've decided that assault rifles should have a range of 50 yards so we have to guess the ranges of things and if we're wrong then tough luck.
Seems kind of lame to me.

Exactly, if your wrong you SHOULD be penalized.

There are many situations where the question comes up, am I within range? Should I move forward to rapid fire, or take my single shot from long range? Should I fall back to be outside assault range? Should I fire my squads assault weapons and risk killing the only models within charge range? if I move my storm raven 12", will my dreadnought be able to disembark and get into assault?

All these things are judgement calls you need to make, that DO NOT RELY ON DICE.... they are, therefore, a skill required to play the game. Removing the restriction on measurement would make many of these decisions trivial, and thus would eliminate a large part of the game in my opinion.

Horst wrote:Exactly, if your wrong you SHOULD be penalized.

There are many situations where the question comes up, am I within range? Should I move forward to rapid fire, or take my single shot from long range? Should I fall back to be outside assault range? Should I fire my squads assault weapons and risk killing the only models within charge range? if I move my storm raven 12", will my dreadnought be able to disembark and get into assault?

All these things are judgement calls you need to make, that DO NOT RELY ON DICE.... they are, therefore, a skill required to play the game. Removing the restriction on measurement would make many of these decisions trivial, and thus would eliminate a large part of the game in my opinion.

+1

It forces you to make decisions that could change the outcome of the game.

Me and my mates play with Pre Measuring as a house rule, as it just seems to add more tactics to the game, rather than addd more luck and strategy.

I do it anyway.

Chowderhead wrote:Me and my mates play with Pre Measuring as a house rule, as it just seems to add more tactics to the game, rather than addd more luck and strategy.

Yeah I find killing space goblins to be quite exciting enough without having to estimate how far 12" is.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Horst wrote:Exactly, if your wrong you SHOULD be penalized.

There are many situations where the question comes up, am I within range? Should I move forward to rapid fire, or take my single shot from long range? Should I fall back to be outside assault range? Should I fire my squads assault weapons and risk killing the only models within charge range? if I move my storm raven 12", will my dreadnought be able to disembark and get into assault?

All these things are judgement calls you need to make, that DO NOT RELY ON DICE.... they are, therefore, a skill required to play the game. Removing the restriction on measurement would make many of these decisions trivial, and thus would eliminate a large part of the game in my opinion.

+1

It forces you to make decisions that could change the outcome of the game.

Agreed. Can't add anything that hasn't already been said.

It's a core game mechanic, your ability to estimate range leads to some really exciting gameplay moments, for example, will an ASM squad make it into CC with my guard? I've been saved by it before. Being able to optimise your strategy by pre-measuring takes away a lot of drama and turns the game into a process instead of a game (based on challenges).

I don't see how the act of measuring is innately any more, or less, dramatic, than not measuring. You're still going to get there, or not get there.

To me, the ability to guess a distance is a skill that is unrelated to actually making any sort of strategic or tactical gameplay decisions. I would rather my opponent decide to charge, or shoot, based on what he feels is smarter, and not have them lose a game because they mis-guessed a fraction of an inch. To me, this is not dramatic, it's just stupid.

My ability to estimate a range should have as much ability on playing the game as my ability to hit a target at a pistol range, or my ability to survive a gunshot. I don't have to hit a target when I want my toy soldiers to shoot, why should I have to guess distances if I want to know if they're in range.

Maybe we should play with rubberband guns instead of dice, and allow player skill to dictate the shooting phase too.

I could see it possibly being forbidden in tournament play or the like.

Doesn't the rule book say something about measuring to check when using templates because of the parallax issue from a one side of the board point of view?

Agree on no measuring, but that's just because I'm old school and it was flat out forbidden in the older rule sets, and one would not want to be so unmanly as to need to measure distances ahead of time.

Besides, that would have made some more of my more epic unit splattering Whirlwind IDF barrages less impressive. I know it isn't a simulation game, but taking out the few elements of uncertainty it does have makes it even less of a wargame than it already is.

Because being in range of 2 units (one in range and one not) gives you a tactical choice to make based on estimated range, you can either declare it and do it or you don't do anything because you got it wrong. The alternative is you want to assault a unit you're not in range so after premeasuring you just assault something else, which removes the skill (and associated failure penalty) of estimating.

It's a classic risk vs reward game mechanic. You take the risk that you have the range to perform the action, the reward for success is that you get to do that action.

It also could be very important to the result of a game, if you there are unit of assault terminators on an objective 5 inches away and a unit of scouts on an objective that are 7 inches away and you declare a charge against the scouts with your ASM squad, you can lose the game entirely because the ASM wouldnt get to do anything. Which is fairly important stuff. Premeasuring would mean you'd charge the terminators and providing one survived and the game ended, you could be contesting to draw/win the game.

I like the rubber band idea, but only if you varnish my models first.

Joey wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:Me and my mates play with Pre Measuring as a house rule, as it just seems to add more tactics to the game, rather than addd more luck and strategy.

Yeah I find killing space goblins to be quite exciting enough without having to estimate how far 12" is.

It's funny how you can't resist a chance for a snide remark even when it goes against the argument you make. So much of 40K is ridiculous from a realism standpoint, and I see many people wishing to change it from that way(see overwatch). Having to eyeball range adds a slightly realistic aspect to the game without sacraficing fun. Plus it creates memorable moments when it fails, such as a deathstar unit being 1 inch out of firing range from your point capturing unit.

Being able to estimate the distance is a nice skill, but takes a while to learn giving somewhat of an advantage to the more experienced player. However it's likely there will be premeasure in 6th anyway and it wouldn't really open up more tactics but would put everyone on a more even level.

Horst wrote:Exactly, if your wrong you SHOULD be penalized.

There are many situations where the question comes up, am I within range? Should I move forward to rapid fire, or take my single shot from long range? Should I fall back to be outside assault range? Should I fire my squads assault weapons and risk killing the only models within charge range? if I move my storm raven 12", will my dreadnought be able to disembark and get into assault?

All these things are judgement calls you need to make, that DO NOT RELY ON DICE.... they are, therefore, a skill required to play the game. Removing the restriction on measurement would make many of these decisions trivial, and thus would eliminate a large part of the game in my opinion.

Being able to accurately guess multiples of 6 inches is not a skill worth rewarding.

Kaldor wrote:

Horst wrote:Exactly, if your wrong you SHOULD be penalized.

There are many situations where the question comes up, am I within range? Should I move forward to rapid fire, or take my single shot from long range? Should I fall back to be outside assault range? Should I fire my squads assault weapons and risk killing the only models within charge range? if I move my storm raven 12", will my dreadnought be able to disembark and get into assault?

All these things are judgement calls you need to make, that DO NOT RELY ON DICE.... they are, therefore, a skill required to play the game. Removing the restriction on measurement would make many of these decisions trivial, and thus would eliminate a large part of the game in my opinion.

Being able to accurately guess multiples of 6 inches is not a skill worth rewarding.

Oh? And being able to roll a bunch of 6's is? Lets face it, there is very little skill in 40k as it is. Rewarding or not, its still something many newer players struggle with.... meaning more experienced players win more often against them, as they should.

I'm curious... how many of you who say that it should be removed are new to the game, or have trouble measuring distances? I honestly rarely miss something by an inch or two, so it wouldn't effect me if it was changed... but it might make my opponents better. Not sure.

To be honest, the ability to judge distances across the table top has hardly anything to do with tactics or skill with commanding your army. What it does do is make people second guess and make risky decisions which might pay off big or end up being that half a inch too short. These risky decisions add to the game's tension without the addition of more dice rolls. The main issue at least in my mind is that the ability to judge distances is not something really only related to the world of war gaming. I mean if someone works at a job that requires the use of measuring tapes all day and can judge distances very well already, judging distances in a war game isn't that much of a challenge gives me a good start.

If someone could create a way to allow pre-measuring but keep the same feel of risk then I be all for it. The way 8th edition fantasy does it with random charge distances does nothing for that, dice aren't ALWAYS the solution now.

With that said, if my opponents like to pre-measure and ASKS AT THE START OF THE GAME then i have no problem with it. Its those that do so mid-game that are annoying.

Horst wrote:
Oh? And being able to roll a bunch of 6's is? Lets face it, there is very little skill in 40k as it is. Rewarding or not, its still something many newer players struggle with.... meaning more experienced players win more often against them, as they should.

I'm curious... how many of you who say that it should be removed are new to the game, or have trouble measuring distances? I honestly rarely miss something by an inch or two, so it wouldn't effect me if it was changed... but it might make my opponents better. Not sure.

If I ever beat someone because of my superior measuring skills I think It'd be a pretty hollow victory.
I've never miss-measured anything. Anything with a range I'm not sure about I'll shoot at the nearest unit just to be sure.
If I really really wanted I'd memorise how far 6" was when my head was a certain distance from the table but I have better things to do, like playing warhammer.

Joey wrote:

Horst wrote:
Oh? And being able to roll a bunch of 6's is? Lets face it, there is very little skill in 40k as it is. Rewarding or not, its still something many newer players struggle with.... meaning more experienced players win more often against them, as they should.

I'm curious... how many of you who say that it should be removed are new to the game, or have trouble measuring distances? I honestly rarely miss something by an inch or two, so it wouldn't effect me if it was changed... but it might make my opponents better. Not sure.

If I ever beat someone because of my superior measuring skills I think It'd be a pretty hollow victory.
I've never miss-measured anything. Anything with a range I'm not sure about I'll shoot at the nearest unit just to be sure.
If I really really wanted I'd memorise how far 6" was when my head was a certain distance from the table but I have better things to do, like playing warhammer.

Its usually a case of the player underestimating his charge distance. And to me, there is nothing sweeter than that moment where he commits everything to that one assault, goes to measure, and finds himself 6.5" out instead of 6" like he thought... should have taken his time and spent another turn posturing for the assault instead of risking it all on a shoddy estimate.

Well that's fair enough, I rarely if ever charge into combat.
Though unless they have Fleet it's not much of an issue surely? Since it's a choice between shooting and assault or running and not assaulting, may as well stand and shoot.

The rule about no premeasuring is there to add some realism to the game. Does a soldier in the field get to measure to see if he is in range to fire his rifle effectivly? No. He has to take a chance. Does he aim at the guy he knows he can hit, or try to take out the guy with the heavy machine gun further back? It is one of the game mechanics I really like, as it actually involves an element of skill.

Joey wrote:Well that's fair enough, I rarely if ever charge into combat.
Though unless they have Fleet it's not much of an issue surely? Since it's a choice between shooting and assault or running and not assaulting, may as well stand and shoot.

its always a choice. For example, say your obviously within 6" of an opponent.... but for example, say only 2 of his models are within that 6". Does he realize this? Does he know that if he shoots you, you can just remove those 2 models and he can't charge? Does he think that perhaps the second rank of your models is also within charge range, so its a non-issue to him?

Or, what if you have rapid fire weapons on your models.... Are you SURE your within 6"? Or would you rather not risk the charge, and open up with rapid fire guns, and risk being counter-charged or shot up yourself?

All of these decisions become completely trivial non-issues if your allowed to know EXACTLY how far away your opponent is. What if you see your opponent with his heavy support completely in the open, with a sweet side shot on the armor? But your not sure if your within 48"? Do you risk the shot with your lascannons, or do you go for the safer target of the battle tank closer to you. Do you do guaranteed damage, or take the risk that your not within range, but possibly cripple his support?

Again, these are all non-issues with measuring. You say you don't want to win because of his ability to measure better than you.... well it is more than just that. Its a question of him understanding risk and reward in his actions. Nobody will ever be able to look at something and eyeball it, saying "yea, thats 43, I'm in range!". Its always a risk for everyone to make that choice. And without that choice, you remove an element of the game.

Horst wrote:
Its usually a case of the player underestimating his charge distance. And to me, there is nothing sweeter than that moment where he commits everything to that one assault, goes to measure, and finds himself 6.5" out instead of 6" like he thought... should have taken his time and spent another turn posturing for the assault instead of risking it all on a shoddy estimate.

Right, "posturing". You mean another turn getting shot, or, getting charged yourself. And this is the sweet part of the game that you enjoy the most? When your opponent loses a game because they couldn't estimate six inches to 2% precision. That's gotta feel great.

Horst wrote:
its always a choice. For example, say your obviously within 6" of an opponent.... but for example, say only 2 of his models are within that 6". Does he realize this? Does he know that if he shoots you, you can just remove those 2 models and he can't charge? Does he think that perhaps the second rank of your models is also within charge range, so its a non-issue to him?

Or, what if you have rapid fire weapons on your models.... Are you SURE your within 6"? Or would you rather not risk the charge, and open up with rapid fire guns, and risk being counter-charged or shot up yourself?

All of these decisions become completely trivial non-issues if your allowed to know EXACTLY how far away your opponent is.

Not at all. Let's say only 2 models are within 6". If he wants to avoid the charge, he's going to remove models starting with the closest. This isn't super-exciting maybe he'll pick the wrong guy, it's oh, did you kill too many or not. And, even if you premeasure, you still need to decide if you want to shoot, and risk killing too many, or not shoot. Even if you are within 6", you need to decide, do I rapid fire or do I charge. The possibility of being outside of 6" doesn't change that, that's still a choice you need to make.

I'd rather my opponent get to make this choice based on what they thought was the better course of action, not how well they can guess a distance.

What if you see your opponent with his heavy support completely in the open, with a sweet side shot on the armor? But your not sure if your within 48"? Do you risk the shot with your lascannons, or do you go for the safer target of the battle tank closer to you. Do you do guaranteed damage, or take the risk that your not within range, but possibly cripple his support?

Neither are guaranteed damage, you still need to roll to hit. Again, I'd rather my opponent make the decision about what they're firing on based on what they believe will benefit their game the most, not how well they can guess distances.

Again, these are all non-issues with measuring. You say you don't want to win because of his ability to measure better than you.... well it is more than just that. Its a question of him understanding risk and reward in his actions. Nobody will ever be able to look at something and eyeball it, saying "yea, thats 43, I'm in range!". Its always a risk for everyone to make that choice. And without that choice, you remove an element of the game.

An element that adds nothing of value to the game. What if you had lazy-eye, and couldn't judge distances because you had no depth perception? What if you lost an eye? Why should someone's physical ability to guess a distance impact a game that is, with this sole exception, based entirely on making decisions around probabilities.

If you wanna premeasure... they sell hexagoned playmats.

That way you can always skirt the edges of ranges and generally be less able to use your tactical judgment.

Not at all. Judging distance is one of the few things in this game that really rely on experience as a player, and to remove it would be a bad thing. There's more elements of risk and uncertainty when you can't just make a measurement wherever, whenever. I don't like the idea of any game strongly featuring shooting as a mechanic with a premeasuring option. The amount of dickery that can also be had by intentionally staying 1" out of range or what have you is palpable, and I'd like to live in a world where that's not a regular issue.

No to premeasuring in 40k. I hate the idea in any game really.

haha right now its 28/28

I say you should be allowed, because the game houldnt be affected by things like the players ability to eye measure.

The biggest issue for me is the time factor. Allowing measurement whenever you like can result in players wasting an inordinate amount of time measuring everything rather than just guessing, hoping for the best and getting on with it.

insaniak wrote:The biggest issue for me is the time factor. Allowing measurement whenever you like can result in players wasting an inordinate amount of time measuring everything rather than just guessing, hoping for the best and getting on with it.

This too. I might take a minute to mull over some options and whether or not something's in range, but I'm not doing that for every unit every turn. Premeasuring would just make the game take longer.

insaniak wrote:The biggest issue for me is the time factor. Allowing measurement whenever you like can result in players wasting an inordinate amount of time measuring everything rather than just guessing, hoping for the best and getting on with it.

well yeah, thats a point! There are so many things that slow down a game. AARGH

Brother SRM wrote:Not at all. Judging distance is one of the few things in this game that really rely on experience as a player, and to remove it would be a bad thing. There's more elements of risk and uncertainty when you can't just make a measurement wherever, whenever. I don't like the idea of any game strongly featuring shooting as a mechanic with a premeasuring option. The amount of dickery that can also be had by intentionally staying 1" out of range or what have you is palpable, and I'd like to live in a world where that's not a regular issue.

But, some people can do that now. My brother has worked as a carpenter. He can eyeball distances with amazing accuracy, and, well, as you say, he has been known to hop around that in-range/out-of-range line. He's done it with things like Death Jesters in a Harlequin unit (range 24") with a shadowseer, so he'll sit at 24", exactly, shooting with his jester, and knowing that you need boxcars to shoot him back.

Dickery isn't due to premeasuring, it's due to ranges at all. All premeasuring does is level the playing field, so that it's not limited to the handful of people who can make those measurements offhand. Seriously, don't we all have better things to do that learn to guess that last half-inch?

What's more, premeasuring limits a lot of dickery. If I measure, on my turn, and move my guys to be 12.5 inches from yours, I can tell you, upfront, that you can't charge me the next turn. You can't surf your guys, you can't accidentally nudge one and make up that last half-inch.

insaniak wrote:The biggest issue for me is the time factor. Allowing measurement whenever you like can result in players wasting an inordinate amount of time measuring everything rather than just guessing, hoping for the best and getting on with it.

I don't believe this is the case. I think people might take one or two measurements to get their bearings and then get on with it. Which, is going to take no more time than getting on with it, and then measuring to see what happens.