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Veteran Sergeant wrote:But only in three dimensions. Estimating distance between objects on a table top is two dimensional, and contains reference points (such as the known width of a base, for example).

I know this isn't the exact topic of the thread, but no, estimating distances on a table top is NOT two dimensional. I understand what you're saying, that there is no variable of depth or height, only width and length.

When we judge how far away one thing is from another, we take two visual images of it (one from each eye) and compare them. The differences are evaluated and give us an estimation of how far away they are. This doesn't change if we are looking at an image on a flat surface, or a three dimensional object. When we lack those two images, or both images are the same (looking at a picture, for example) we use other frames of reference to form an estimation of distance. It's why so many visual illusions are possible with simple drawn lines.

Anyone who can only see through one eye must rely on those other frames of reference. And they simply don't exist on a regular tabletop. In fact, many models may create illusions. A larger model will seem much closer than a smaller one, for example.

Maybe you're right, Redbeard, but at least one of them will suddenly start measuring all over the place. He is the kind of guy who takes five minutes to place a single flamer template to make absolutely sure he hit the most models. When shooting four flamers.

First things first, I'm new to 40k pretty unbiased seeing as I've played only 1 unfinished game. And premeasuring shouldn't be allowed, reasons:

Redbeard wrote:I don't see how the act of measuring is innately any more, or less, dramatic, than not measuring. You're still going to get there, or not get there.

To me, the ability to guess a distance is a skill that is unrelated to actually making any sort of strategic or tactical gameplay decisions. I would rather my opponent decide to charge, or shoot, based on what he feels is smarter, and not have them lose a game because they mis-guessed a fraction of an inch. To me, this is not dramatic, it's just stupid.

My ability to estimate a range should have as much ability on playing the game as my ability to hit a target at a pistol range, or my ability to survive a gunshot. I don't have to hit a target when I want my toy soldiers to shoot, why should I have to guess distances if I want to know if they're in range.

Maybe we should play with rubberband guns instead of dice, and allow player skill to dictate the shooting phase too.

Your confidence in distance has everything to do with your tactics and strategy. Are you confident your unit can make that shot/charge? Or are you gonna play it a little more conserved and inch forward or backward so you eliminate both parties shot chances?

Secondly, your role is that of the commander of your army, not the individual soldiers, a commander doesn't run around the field grabbing thier soldiers' "rubberbands" and firing for them, you tell them what and where to shoot and hope your tactics are so that the enemy dies and not your units!

SirRouga wrote:To be honest, the ability to judge distances across the table top has hardly anything to do with tactics or skill with commanding your army. What it does do is make people second guess and make risky decisions which might pay off big or end up being that half a inch too short. These risky decisions add to the game's tension without the addition of more dice rolls. The main issue at least in my mind is that the ability to judge distances is not something really only related to the world of war gaming. I mean if someone works at a job that requires the use of measuring tapes all day and can judge distances very well already, judging distances in a war game isn't that much of a challenge gives me a good...

That would be a good trait to have as a commander, like some people remember all the point values to most army's units, much the same can be said for those with an eye for distance.

Not to mention when the option of pre-measure is in effect your better players are going to meassure EVERYTHING before they even start thinking of a plan of attack, cause it's simply the smarter thing to do. Then our 4-5 hour games will quickly turn into 10+ hour games O.o who really wants that?

Plain and simple it's part of the game, and so long as we are all following the same rules the game doesn't favor anyone. If you don't like the rules don't play the game? ( I mean that last statement in the most non-chalant of tones, I'm not being aggro when I say it )

P.S. Did this all on my iPhone sorry for any typos

Rejn wrote:
Plain and simple it's part of the game, and so long as we are all following the same rules the game doesn't favor anyone. If you don't like the rules don't play the game? ( I mean that last statement in the most non-chalant of tones, I'm not being aggro when I say it )

If you don't like it, don't play is hardly a good way to foster discussion of what could be. 7th ed WFB didn't allow pre-measuring. WFB 8th ed does - rules change. I don't play Fantasy, but I know that my friends who do enjoy 8th a lot more, and one reason they mention is that pre-measuring removes a lot of arguing and fudging. You're making decisions based on probabilities, not on estimations. There's no reason this wouldn't work just as well in 40k, and more reasonable justification for it (i.e. Space Marines have integrated targeting systems in their helmets, as do many xenos races.) As I mentioned earlier, even 20th century tech utilizes sophisticated range-finding technology. Why shouldn't 40,000th century?

And I agree in the 40k'th century why shouldn't everyone have range finding? But your arguement was it's not pertinent to tactics and I disagreed. When there is doubt and question it plays MORE to your play style and tactics.

Yes I do agree "if you don't like it, don't play it..." is not a good discussional arguement, and I appologize, this topic is rather heated and that is my go to to dissipate the heat.

My ultimate stand when it comes to any topic of discussion is, if it was designed to play a certain way, then that's the way it should be played. But I rather enjoy the limitations of measurement, I'm an Orc player, and from what I've gathered, it will hurt more than help me.

Pre-measuring could lengthen turns, as players carefully check every single unit-unit distance, every single turn, but I really doubt it would be that bad. Those types of players are usually the same ones who agonize over every decision, spending a significant portion of time mentally math-hammering things out, anyway. For a number of those, I imagine being able to lock their tape measures in and quickly sweep an arc from the unit in question might actually help them firm up their decisions faster. Being that the time added or saved would depend entirely on the player - just as the time spent looking up stats and clarifying rules does, or the time spent calculating probabilities on the fly - I don't feel it's justified, rejecting it based solely on the worst case scenario.

Personally, I'd love to see measuring at any time allowed. Note that I say "at any time," as opposed to "pre-measuring" - if you've spent any time playing games that allow it, you've likely noticed that it's more a matter of "mechanically aided eyeballing" to get a more reliable general sense of things than it is making decisions, measuring, then changing your mind, ad nauseam. Granted, I'd also like units to have individual movement values, coupled with randomized charge/run ranges. All together, I think this would add more tension and tactical complexity. I know many are loth to add more stats and die rolls, but I'm confident that it would improve gameplay and function as a better representation of the fictional world we're trying to recreate and the mock battles we fight therein.

oadie wrote:All together, I think this would add more tension and tactical complexity. I know many are loth to add more stats and die rolls, but I'm confident that it would improve gameplay and function as a better representation of the fictional world we're trying to recreate and the mock battles we fight therein.

This is my opinion also. I believe (after playing WHFB 8th and WotR) that premeasuring coupled with a random element in the assault phase is the best way to keep the tension of declaring a 'long' charge that might fail, while not rewarding people who are good at guessing ranges (because thats not the same thing as being good at warhammer, and nor should it be).

The movement rules in 40K could be completely re-worked to simplify the entire system, adding a random element to charge distances while removing the random element to difficult terrain tests and run distances.

Horst wrote:Exactly, if your wrong you SHOULD be penalized.

There are many situations where the question comes up, am I within range? Should I move forward to rapid fire, or take my single shot from long range? Should I fall back to be outside assault range? Should I fire my squads assault weapons and risk killing the only models within charge range? if I move my storm raven 12", will my dreadnought be able to disembark and get into assault?

All these things are judgement calls you need to make, that DO NOT RELY ON DICE.... they are, therefore, a skill required to play the game. Removing the restriction on measurement would make many of these decisions trivial, and thus would eliminate a large part of the game in my opinion.

Bears repeating IMO.

For me, one of the fun aspects of the game is making the decision on what to do. Do I move forward 6 inches to be within the 12" rapid fire distance or stay where I'm at and just hit them once. Quite often there is a risk that I won't be within 12" after moving my full 6" and then can't fire at all. (I have to admit it's more fun if it's the other guy that can't fire, can't assualt, or whatever). I don't enjoy the random component of the game (i.e. rolling dice) as much as I enjoy the tactics. I have a lot more control on which direction I move a squad, and what I ask that squad to do than I do over how the dice are going to roll.

Not to say that I don't enjoy the randomness, rolling 15 wounds out of 10 tesla shots is nice when it's me, and still fun if it's the other guy, gives me something to talk about (and an excuse for why I lost, because that's what I'm going to blame, even if it didn't have any real effect on the game).

Pre-measuring makes things almost a forgone conclusion sometimes, If my Necron Immortals are 11.9" away from an an assault unit on my opponents turn and he gets to pre-measure, then it's a foregone conclusion that they are not going to be a factor the rest of the game. If he doesn't get to pre-measure, then he has to decide is it 11.9" or 12.1" and maybe he decides to send them to cover to protect them for one more turn and assault me next turn. That is tactics. If I have a squad of Necron Warriors that are somewhere between 17.9" and 18.1" away from that same assault unit on my turn, do I move them 6" up to get 20 rapid fire shots instead of 10 at long range?

Maybe some people don't like this aspect of the game, I do. I think Fantasy allows pre-measuring and then put in random charge distances to make up for the foregone conclusion issue of a shooting unit getting wiped out by an assault unit. So, they put more randomness in the game and took out tactics, that's fine but it exchanges something I enjoy more for something I enjoy less.

If it was up to me, I'd vote to leave it how it is (only allow measuring after the decision has been made). (But it's not up to me, so I guess I just wait till 6th comes out). If I'm playing a for-fun game and my opponent wants to pre-measure (or he's a new player really struggling with distance judgement) then I'd be fine to allow it in that game, but not as a general rule.

BTW: When I started playing, I really struggled with distance judgement, I decided to move a squad forward to make sure they were within 12" rapid-fire and when I measured for the move, I was already within 12", I'm better at it now, but it was a funny moment.

Tye_Informer wrote:
Pre-measuring makes things almost a forgone conclusion sometimes, If my Necron Immortals are 11.9" away from an an assault unit on my opponents turn and he gets to pre-measure, then it's a foregone conclusion that they are not going to be a factor the rest of the game. If he doesn't get to pre-measure, then he has to decide is it 11.9" or 12.1" and maybe he decides to send them to cover to protect them for one more turn and assault me next turn. That is tactics.

No, that's your opponent making a mistake. For one thing, why would his models be 11.9" away from necron immortals without those warriors trying to shoot him on their turn? Did your necron warriors forget that they get a shooting phase, or were you counting on him making this mistake? And, if you did shoot him, then he should know exactly how far his guys were from yours. So either you had models that close to him that you didn't try to shoot, in which case you made a mistake, or you did shoot him, and he didn't pay attention to the range you shot him at, which would be his mistake. Either way, neither of those cases are a matter of tactics, they're simply a matter of paying attention. (Unless your tactic was deliberately not to shoot him, hoping that he'd mis-estimate the range to your guys and fail the assult... but that would be a very poor, and very risky, tactic.)

Which brings up another point... There are times when I am allowed to measure. I am allowed to measure distances for any of my units, up to their move range, during my movement phase. The rulebook even says I'm allowed to do this. (From page 11: "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all.") If I have a Dark Eldar skimmer with aethersails, I can roll those dice, and measure an average of 31" from that skimmer, in all directions, even if I have no intention of moving it. This measurement is explicitly allowed by the rules. And, as specified in the vehicle movement rules, my moves must consist of straight line movements, and pivots.

So, let's say I've got my unit of wyches that are maybe 11.9" from your immortals, and maybe 12.1". I'm legally allowed to measure my skimmer's move to my wyches, and then pivot, and then measure to your immortals, and, I'm legally allowed to notice the distance between those two units.

In fact, with me being allowed, by the rules on page 11, to measure as many possible moves as I want, I can take that one skimmer and envision as many of these possible pivots as I want. And, that's all legal.

It's also legal for me to over-measure the range of certain weapons. Let's say I have a unit, somewhere in my backfield, that's doing nothing but holding an objective. Maybe they've got pistols. According to the rules on page 17, I can declare them to fire at any unit they can see, and "measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.." Note, it doesn't say, measure the range of your gun and see if they're within that range, the rules state that I measure the distance from my model to yours. And, if my line of sight happens to go across other units of mine, well, I can notice the difference there too.

But, you say, that doesn't sound right. You know, I agree, it doesn't pass the smell test. But, it's legal. Seems kind of funny that only some armies have the tools to gather this data, but, I guess that's how it is. And, for those espousing the argument that pre-measuring would slow down the game, imagine how much I'd slow it down if I had to take all my measurements in this way. I'd probably even need to take notes so I didn't forget, as I was going along. But, it's all legal under the current rules.

A canny player can already obtain all sorts of measurements legally. Do you really want them slowing the game down by measuring moves they don't intend to make just to gather data? Do you really want people declaring shots that are obviously out-of-range just to gather data? Wouldn't it just be simpler to concede that measuring, whatever, whenever, isn't that awful?

I believe that premeasuring is a big no no, but the friendly group we play with does not have a problem with it at all. It's easier to just go with the flow in friendly games.
On a competitive level, no way should it be allowed.

I think premeasuring should be allowed as was stated that not being able to eyeball a range should penilize a general. Add a random roll like in fantasy but why should a unit always be able to move and assault X"? For simplicity's sake. And I would play faster knowing if I'm in range to shoot or out of range to assault. To the argument that it adds tension to see if you're in range or not, why should that make you a good general? Shouldn't it be about your tactics and stradegy and not whether you're in range? Too many times have I argued and rolled off on whether that was in assault range or a hair out of rear armor. By premeasuring both players know the gist of the other's intentions to agree on cover, shots and assaults before a turn later when manuevers were made to take said shots.

Joey wrote:I don't really see what forbidding measurement brings to the game. Especially when the only reason it's important is because they've decided that assault rifles should have a range of 50 yards so we have to guess the ranges of things and if we're wrong then tough luck.
Seems kind of lame to me.

Them's the breaks, sometimes.

Anyway, it would slow down the game immensely, especially with shooty armies, measuring every single range before and after moving. Sometimes when you go to shoot, you may be out of range, it happens. Quit complaining and move on.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Joey wrote:I don't really see what forbidding measurement brings to the game. Especially when the only reason it's important is because they've decided that assault rifles should have a range of 50 yards so we have to guess the ranges of things and if we're wrong then tough luck.
Seems kind of lame to me.

Them's the breaks, sometimes.

Anyway, it would slow down the game immensely, especially with shooty armies, measuring every single range before and after moving. Sometimes when you go to shoot, you may be out of range, it happens. Quit complaining and move on.

Yeah that's what all this is about, me being out of range with my weapons.
Obviously if I can measure the range beforehand, I will no longer be out of range.
Trolling, much?

Joey wrote:Yeah that's what all this is about, me being out of range with my weapons.
Obviously if I can measure the range beforehand, I will no longer be out of range.
Trolling, much?

Let's not accuse people of trolling just because we've misunderstood the point they were making, hmm?

Under the current system, the decision as to whether or not to move before shooting is generally made on guesswork. Allowing players to measure freely would thus be a huge boost to shooty armies, because you're always going to know before you choose to move whether or not it is actually necessary.

I think the current rules do generally give players with a strong spatial awareness and understanding of geometry an advantage. I mean if both players deploy as far forward as they can in a pitched battle, you know there is a 24" range there. on top of that, If you know where the center of the board is you now have accurate data in 1 foot lengths across the table, and even horizontally if one knows the terrain set up.

Barring that, a bit of trig can go a long way in guessing ranges. I'm not saying you should pull out a calc in the middle of a game, but If you know some simple stuff like pythagorean triples ( I had to memorize a dozen of these, ) You can guess ranges between things very effectively.

While I'm not totally In favor of saying "go and measure whenever". I do think there needs to be some premeasuring to even the field.

Sunoccard wrote:I think the current rules do generally give players with a strong spatial awareness and understanding of geometry an advantage.

Which is true in so far as it goes... where it would appear we disagree is over whether that is a problem.

Some Chess players can plot out an entire game in their heads each time either player moves a piece. Some can't. Does the player who can have an unfair advantage... or are they just better at one of those things that potentially makes you a better Chess player?

Remove too many of the things that rely on a player's own abilities and you might as well be playing Ludo.

insaniak wrote:Which is true in so far as it goes... where it would appear we disagree is over whether that is a problem.

Some Chess players can plot out an entire game in their heads each time either player moves a piece. Some can't. Does the player who can have an unfair advantage... or are they just better at one of those things that potentially makes you a better Chess player?

Remove too many of the things that rely on a player's own abilities and you might as well be playing Ludo.

Hear, hear!

insaniak wrote:
Which is true in so far as it goes... where it would appear we disagree is over whether that is a problem.

Some Chess players can plot out an entire game in their heads each time either player moves a piece. Some can't. Does the player who can have an unfair advantage... or are they just better at one of those things that potentially makes you a better Chess player?

Remove too many of the things that rely on a player's own abilities and you might as well be playing Ludo.

I would agree that personal ability is supposed to be a major factor and I strongly feel that measuring needs to be limited. The Idea that was floating around my head was limiting (pre)measuring to only a single phase of the game. (probably the shooting phase)

Again, Joey, as I said, them's the breaks sometimes. I have missed assaults and shooting every once in a while due to range. Yes, premeasuring would have helped, but it would have dragged the game down into slow mode. One of out gaming group in a sniper a his ranges, he is usually within an inch or closer of calling his ranges. He's just good.

To paraphrase what Insaniak said, if you take too many of the players' abilities out of the game, what is the point?

I would say that I would have no problem with pre-measuring except I have 1 problem: My buddy Joe.

He's the guy that counts off 15 different moves in battle tech.

He does 10 different placements of fireballs and other radius or cone shaped spells in D&D to determine the best configuration.

40k games with him already take 50% longer than anyone else because he thinks and rethinks every move.

He plays gunline and mech IG. I will NOT be playing him if he gets to premeasure everything.

I have a friend who did that with his Eldar. Move a Falcton, walk over and check all my LOS to it, and if unhappy move it back and try again. Rinse and repeat for the other 5 tanks in his army, and for every Vyper. Eventually put a stop to it and but it can drag games outwards. But that's more to do with the player than the process of pre-measuring. Pre-measuring for me is looking at a squad of Devs with 4 ML's, putting my tape measure out to 48" and swinging it in an arc while saying "Who can I shoot?" rather than measuring range for each gun to each unit and checking everything. It's more a general "who's near me?" than something complex and game-slowing.

Anyway, we've never had any issues with pre-measuring. I've been doing it since 2nd Ed and it has never been a problem. Frankly I find the idea of troops not knowing the range of their own guns to be somewhat silly. It's never slowed down a game nor 'unbalanced' any particular scenario or whatever. And as we don't have Guess ranged weapons any more, it's hardly a problem.

The only thing we don't do is measure the opponent's weapons and charge ranges. You can infer those things from your own measurements, but you don't move your troops, measure their charge range, then re-move your troops to stay out.

Redbeard wrote:
Which brings up another point... There are times when I am allowed to measure. I am allowed to measure distances for any of my units, up to their move range, during my movement phase. The rulebook even says I'm allowed to do this. (From page 11: "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all.") If I have a Dark Eldar skimmer with aethersails, I can roll those dice, and measure an average of 31" from that skimmer, in all directions, even if I have no intention of moving it. This measurement is explicitly allowed by the rules. And, as specified in the vehicle movement rules, my moves must consist of straight line movements, and pivots.

So, let's say I've got my unit of wyches that are maybe 11.9" from your immortals, and maybe 12.1". I'm legally allowed to measure my skimmer's move to my wyches, and then pivot, and then measure to your immortals, and, I'm legally allowed to notice the distance between those two units.

In fact, with me being allowed, by the rules on page 11, to measure as many possible moves as I want, I can take that one skimmer and envision as many of these possible pivots as I want. And, that's all legal.

It's also legal for me to over-measure the range of certain weapons. Let's say I have a unit, somewhere in my backfield, that's doing nothing but holding an objective. Maybe they've got pistols. According to the rules on page 17, I can declare them to fire at any unit they can see, and "measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.." Note, it doesn't say, measure the range of your gun and see if they're within that range, the rules state that I measure the distance from my model to yours. And, if my line of sight happens to go across other units of mine, well, I can notice the difference there too.

But, you say, that doesn't sound right. You know, I agree, it doesn't pass the smell test. But, it's legal. Seems kind of funny that only some armies have the tools to gather this data, but, I guess that's how it is. And, for those espousing the argument that pre-measuring would slow down the game, imagine how much I'd slow it down if I had to take all my measurements in this way. I'd probably even need to take notes so I didn't forget, as I was going along. But, it's all legal under the current rules.

A canny player can already obtain all sorts of measurements legally. Do you really want them slowing the game down by measuring moves they don't intend to make just to gather data? Do you really want people declaring shots that are obviously out-of-range just to gather data? Wouldn't it just be simpler to concede that measuring, whatever, whenever, isn't that awful?

I haven't run into anyone who plays that way, so I still vote to leave them the way they are.

Redbeard wrote:Which brings up another point... There are times when I am allowed to measure. I am allowed to measure distances for any of my units, up to their move range, during my movement phase. The rulebook even says I'm allowed to do this. (From page 11: "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all.") If I have a Dark Eldar skimmer with aethersails, I can roll those dice, and measure an average of 31" from that skimmer, in all directions, even if I have no intention of moving it. This measurement is explicitly allowed by the rules. And, as specified in the vehicle movement rules, my moves must consist of straight line movements, and pivots.

Just a nitpick on that... technically, you're not allowed to measure in a direction that you have no intention of moving in. As the rule you quoted is written, you are allowed to measure in a given direction, and then change your mind and go a different way. It doesn't give you permission to measure anywehre other than where you are intending to move... it just gives you permission to change you mind as to just what you intend.

In practice though, until we develop the ability to read each others minds to determine their actual intentions, that's a little unenforcible.

I'm against premessuring because it gives shooting armies a better advantage than assault armies.

Chowderhead wrote:Me and my mates play with Pre Measuring as a house rule, as it just seems to add more tactics to the game, rather than addd more luck and strategy.

Trolling , right?! This would be seriously annoying and would slow down game play at epic levels. Might as well get rid of dice and scatters that might add more "tactics" too


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luke_Prowler wrote:I'm against premessuring because it gives shooting armies a better advantage than assault armies.

It would give assaults an insane advantage too... its just silly... like getting rid of Queens in chess, since they're annoying and take away from strategy

Lobukia wrote:
Trolling , right?! This would be seriously annoying and would slow down game play at epic levels. Might as well get rid of dice and scatters that might add more "tactics" too

No because they're completely different things. One is a ransomised outcome of an event, the other is a needless complication.

insaniak wrote:
Just a nitpick on that... technically, you're not allowed to measure in a direction that you have no intention of moving in. As the rule you quoted is written, you are allowed to measure in a given direction, and then change your mind and go a different way. It doesn't give you permission to measure anywehre other than where you are intending to move... it just gives you permission to change you mind as to just what you intend.

Hmm I'm going to move in this direction *measures*
Actually no I'm going to move here *measures*
Actually no I'm going to move here *measures*
ad nausium. It's completely legal.

Lobukia wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luke_Prowler wrote:I'm against premessuring because it gives shooting armies a better advantage than assault armies.

It would give assaults an insane advantage too... its just silly... like getting rid of Queens in chess, since they're annoying and take away from strategy

And what "insane" advantage is that? Yes, it's nice to not fall short on the charge, but it's nowhere as useful as being able to know if a unit is with in double tap or whether or not a target is in a basilisk's min range.

Joey wrote:Hmm I'm going to move in this direction *measures*
Actually no I'm going to move here *measures*
Actually no I'm going to move here *measures*
ad nausium. It's completely legal.

Yes, that's legal... so long as you are actually considering moving there each time. That was the point: The rules allows you to change your mind and move elsewhere, not just to measure everything in sight. You're still technically restricted to measuring to places where you actually want to move...

H.B.M.C. wrote:I have a friend who did that with his Eldar. Move a Falcton, walk over and check all my LOS to it, and if unhappy move it back and try again. Rinse and repeat for the other 5 tanks in his army, and for every Vyper. Eventually put a stop to it and but it can drag games outwards. But that's more to do with the player than the process of pre-measuring. Pre-measuring for me is looking at a squad of Devs with 4 ML's, putting my tape measure out to 48" and swinging it in an arc while saying "Who can I shoot?" rather than measuring range for each gun to each unit and checking everything. It's more a general "who's near me?" than something complex and game-slowing.

This is exactly what I was talking about - sure, some players would take ages to measure everything, but those people tend to be slow and... methodical anyway. The average player wouldn't likely take much, if any, longer than he does now. That's been my experience with different games that allow free measurement and, while mechanical differences in other departments make a direct comparison impractical (e.g. in Infinity, range affects how likely you are to hit a target, not simply whether you get to roll any dice), I'm confident that it would hold true in 40K, as well. Honestly, people have jerked their collective knee so hard at the time-consumption issue it seems like no one is bothering to consider anything but the worst case scenario, which is less than productive.

This isn't a crazy special rule for a new unit that could shatter the (arguably already shoddy) internal game balance - this is a background mechanic that affects the players, not the armies. Yes, one can argue that certain types of armies benefit more than others, but how many times has the all-(internet)-important metagame shifted (MSUs, mech, etc.) in the past because of universal mechanical changes? The game changes and players have to learn to adapt, or blame the 'inferior new system' for all of their losses and go whine on the internet (See? Pro-measuring people can be dismissive too! ). Free measurement is far more general than a new vehicle damage table or the like - it shifts the tactical focus by giving the players - BOTH players, mind you - more information. You don't stop having to determine target priority just because you know definitively who is in range, and you don't stop having to decide whether to shoot, charge, or fall back just because you know whether you can reach the enemy unit or the nearest cover.

Honestly, isn't the focus of the game supposed to be on strategy and tactics? At the risk of appearing to fight fire with flame, a lot of the more strongly worded posts here are sounding a bit like some people just don't want their (natural or learned) advantage taken away. 40K already has a sufficiently bloated and convoluted ruleset that experienced players have a distinct advantage beyond a honed tactical sense. To claim unrestricted measuring is a crutch for the unskilled paints a rather unflattering picture of that player - even "it's my Warhammer, damn it, you hippies leave it the way it is" is more justifiable than that.