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Greetings,

with the Neo-Necrons the Monolith is able to deepstrike. BGB rules say vehicles which DS are considered to have moved at cruising speed or more literally that they DID move at cruising speed.

The codex listing said however that the Monolith CANNOT move fast than combat speed (i.e 6 inches for non-fast).

Thus,

1) Despite having the deepstrike rule (and I know it seems obvious) is the Monolith actually allowed to deep strike?
2) If it does deepstrike, since it CANNOT move faster than combat speed, is it then considered to have only moved 6 inches and is thus eligible to fire?
3) If it then does fire, after deepstriking, after moving at cruising, combat, whatever.. does it still count as having not actually ever moved at all as per the rule in the codex stating a firing monolith is considered to be stationary?

My thought on this to date is that first you have the BGB for DS and cruising speed, but then the codex 'trumps' to where it is only to have moved 6" (i.e. only ABLE to have moved 6")

... however by that same codex-trump logic does it mean it can't deepstrike as it CANNOT move past combat speed?

I'm at a loss here folks. Thanks.

This is one of those times where "counts as" is an important distinction.

The monolith is allowed to Deepstrike as it has the rule to deepstrike. As a result of deepstriking, it counts as if it had moved at cruising speed (though it never actually moved at cruising speed). The very bottom of the monolith page tells you that if its held in reserve it "must" arrive via deepstrike. It is absolutely allowed to deepstrike.

As far as being able to fire, a monolith has a special rule called "Heavy". A monolith always counts as being stationary for the purposes of firing. When the shooting phase rolls around, regardless of whether it arrived via deepstrike or was on the table and moved 6", it will be able to fire as if it were stationary.

I would agree with the above. The MUST in its entry means it can deep strike regardless of what the BRB says and the fact it counts as stationary means the guns work regardless...

Massaen wrote:I would agree with the above. The MUST in its entry means it can deep strike regardless of what the BRB says and the fact it counts as stationary means the guns work regardless...

Keeping in mind that if you fire an Ordnance weapon you can not fire anything else.

As the entry for Ordnance Weapons in the BRB Page 58 says that no other weapons may be fired if you fire an Ordnance weapon.

So not even the flayers which are defensive weapons can fire?

ah nuts.

@DR - good catch, on the ordanance. Though i thought it was just large blast in the new codex... its not with me right now though so i can't check!

Well this is just the crowning point of terrible.

As it still 'counts as having moved at cruising speed' it cannot fire any weapons after deepstriking as it isn't a fast vehicle.

and after that...heavy states that "when it shoots, it counts as having remained stationary"

THAT implies it must first be legally able to shoot in the first place before 'heavy' occurs nerfing its little 6" (can only hit me in melee on 4s) move pointless.

AND to cap it all off, as you both so kindly noted, particle whip IS an ordinance weapon which means if I want to use it I give up all the gauss flayer shots.

outstanding!
*shoots self in the head*

Anyways, this heavy ordinance business has me thinking that in 6th edition ordinance weapon carrying vehicles will be able to fire all weapons so long as they remained stationary.

Right. I suppose my codex will have to wait to let that take effect along with preferred enemy opening to include range rolls to hit and jump packs becoming relentless (here's looking at you HEAVY gauss cannon and transdimensional beamer).

*mega facepalm*

THAT implies it must first be legally able to shoot in the first place before 'heavy' occurs nerfing its little 6" (can only hit me in melee on 4s) move pointless

This is incorrect. The monolith can always fire, as it always counts as being stationary for the purposes of shooting.

As a result of Deep Striking the monolith gets a couple of benefits

1) It counts as having moved at crusing speed, so targets that wish to assault it will only score hits on 6's
2) Most deep striking vehicles will suffer some kinds of penalties to shooting. Some may not fire, others may only fire if they are fast. The monolith does not have to worry about this, as you will count as stationary for the purposes of shooting, and can indeed deepstrike and fire the particle whip (an ordanance weapon)

The only thing DR was trying to point out is that in firing the Particle Whip, you may not then fire the Flux arcs, as the monolith does not have any rules to bypass the BRB restriction on firing ordanance as well as other weaponry.

Think of it this way, although it is only ever allowed to move 6", by deepstriking your monolith, you get the benefit of moving at cruising speed, while also getting the benefit of remaining stationary.

^ Lehnsherr is exactly correct.

Dammit. i forgot about the ordance firing = no other weapons rule as well.

All of a sudden my 2 'lith apoc army doesn;t look quite as mean.

I'm hopeful that in 6th there is a classification of vehicles noted as "heavy" that get further rules updates to allow them to fire everything, including ordnance & other weaponry, if stationary. Just a wishful dream right now but we will see.

Currently Lehnsherr has the correct interpretation of the monolith's rules.

Ok, nice to know. I Can DS my Lith in and then shot either the flux arc or the Whip.

And units port through the lith after DS as well? Obviously they would count as disembarking from a moving trasnport but that is normal anyway isnt it?

Now you're getting into the timing issue of a rules debate. The monolith ports models 'at the beginning of the movement phase' which is also the same time that reserves enter play. If the timing is supposed to be played that your reserves enter first, then sequentially you are allowed to resolve the monolith's teleport ability, then you can deep strike the mono and *bamf* one of your units right to its door. If the timing works out that once you've resolved the deep strike it is no longer the 'start of the movement phase' and your chance to teleport units through is lost.

Long story short it will require an FAQ since the last codex specifically said that a monolith entering from reserves could disembark a unit of warriors, while this codex lists no such specification to the rules. Until then I've been playing conservatively and not using the teleport ability unless my 'lith was on the table from the start of the turn forwards.

I'm thinking a houserule saying that 'Liths have to DS at the start of the movement phase before any other movement in order to teleport otherwise you lose it.

I only play in a small group of friends so i'm thinking that will suffice until the FAQ comes out.

Do you really feel that the Monolith needs to be Nerf'd further?

I'm not seeing how heavy means it can shoot in the first place.

The wording is absolutely straight (emphasis added):

"Heavy: WHEN it shoots it COUNTS as having remained stationary."

RAW, IF you are able to shoot it then means it counts as having remained stationary. BGB states that non-fast vehicles CANNOT fire weapons if they moved more than 6" or combat speed.

As it deepstrikes and is considered to have moved at cruising speed (12") it cannot fire as it is not a fast vehicle.

If we're saying the firing rule for vehicle movement only counts when it has ACTUALLY moved more than 6" then that means drop pods should also be able to fire when they land as they haven't 'really' moved more than 6".

If the Monlith was supposed to be considered as stationary automatically for any shooting it does or plans to do wouldn't the rule reflect that? i.e. in its shooting phase it is considered to be stationary or some other variant?

How does heavy trigger at any time other than WHEN the monolith shoots?

In this situation, deepstriking, the Monolith needs to be considered stationary or to have only moved 6" to be able to shoot in the first place which would then trigger heavy treating it as if it had remained stationary.

This is why the fully heavy rule:

"The vehicle cannot move faster than combat speed. When it shoots, it counts as having remained stationary"

is so important. The only way it can shoot after deepstrike is if the first line of the heavy rule means its the the BGB terms of deepstrike counts as movement is overwritten by the codex combat speed limitation.

At least, using clear text logic that is the best i've been able to make of it.

RAW deepstrike: In the shooting phase it counts as having moved at cruising speed.

So start of the movement phase, it has moved at cruising speed. Per the shooting sequence, you must complete the shooting sequence for each unit in your army. Thus, the monolith (despite moving at cruising speed) still gets a shooting sequence.

At this point, the RAW you quoted comes up, making the Monolith count as stationary.

Now the monolith counts as being stationary after counting as having moved at combat speed. Because Heavy is the last to be applied, and it is more specific, the stationary part sticks, letting the monolith fire.

Actually the only purpose of the "heavy skimmer" rule, is to let the monolith fire after deep strike...

Yeah, you should interpret "when it shoots" to mean "when it attempts to shoot", which makes the sentence read "when it attempts to shoot, it counts as having been stationary". The RAW is just poor grammar that requires a pre-existing notion that everything either knows that it can shoot before it attempts to do so, or else knows that it cannot and thus does not.

I guess I'm just used to serious hard asses.

When it shoots isn't the same as "in its shooting phase"

If the general tourney ruling is opening up the interpretation to be that broad then I'm all for it of course, but per RAW it doesn't say in "in it's shooting phase" -- only when shooting.

It strikes me as amusing that rule lawyers "think" this is fair and logical and are going to can-open the codex and general play to let this fly when those same folks come down on the scarabs like circa 1941 Germans on camp full of ... well.. I'm sure by now you all get the metaphor.

So if it's 'fair' and RAI for the Monolith now how many other other codexes and units are going to get tourney/player-faq-ed to be "fair" or "how they should have been". Down this path lies the dark side methinks.

No, it is also RAW

When it shoot s it is stationary. RAW it still has a chance to shoot (not "its' shooting phase, there is obviously only one shooting phase) and when it does so it counts as stationary

@ OP.

Don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but Codex does trump BRB. I know that is actually written somewhere in the rulebook, so I will try to find it.

Deadshot wrote:@ OP.

Don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but Codex does trump BRB. I know that is actually written somewhere in the rulebook, so I will try to find it.

You won't. You'll find that specific trumps general, not that codex trumps BRB.

Surely "When it shoots" and "if it tries to shoot" arwe the same thing?

In order to shoot the first thgin you ask is "can i shoot?"

so..monolith Deep Stirkes and lands successfully (gasp!)



Question: Can i Shoot?

- Did i move a cruising speed? - I Deep Striked, so yes (BRB says so)
- can the monolith shoot when it moves at Cruising Speed (BRB says no, Codex specific rule "Heavy" says Yes)
- Does a specific Codex rue trump the genric BRB rule? Yes

Therefore the Monoloth can DS and shoot, all other rules apply (only ordnance OR flux arc etc etc)

rigeld2 wrote:

Deadshot wrote:@ OP.

Don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but Codex does trump BRB. I know that is actually written somewhere in the rulebook, so I will try to find it.

You won't. You'll find that specific trumps general, not that codex trumps BRB.

Where s tht rule, cause I have never seen it written in a rulebook or codex. Its always been Codex/Card/Profile/Whatever, trumps main rules.

Deadshot wrote:

Where s tht rule, cause I have never seen it written in a rulebook or codex. Its always been Codex/Card/Profile/Whatever, trumps main rules.

It is not written in the BRB, it is the entire premise though of how the game works. You always get an armor save against wounds. You never get an armor save against power weapon attacks. Which one do you apply? The general rules is you can take an armor save, more specifically you cannot take armor saves against wounds caused by a power weapon.

Specific has precedence over general.

Deadshot - the ONLY time you will see "codex trumps rulebook" is on the page about smoke launchers; here it mentions that *only* when the SAME NAMED rule is present in BOTH the rulebook and the codex does the codex take precedence.

Otherwise it is the more specific rule that takes precedence. Otherwise you can always take armour saves, even when hit by a power weapon.

Dont forget, whether a model has ranged weapons or not, it still must have a shooting sequence.

"Specifc > General" = "Codex > BGB"

The BGB applies to all 40k, whereas the codex only applies to that one army/race. Therefore, the codex is always more specific and will always trump the rulebook.

It's not spelled out for you in the BGB, but it's the only logical conclusion.

azazel the cat wrote:"Specifc > General" = "Codex > BGB"

The BGB applies to all 40k, whereas the codex only applies to that one army/race. Therefore, the codex is always more specific and will always trump the rulebook.

It's not spelled out for you in the BGB, but it's the only logical conclusion.

False.
Codex rules that apply to all CC (WTN - SW codex) are overruled by the grenade rules (BRB) because the grenade rules are more specific.

You can't just assume that the codexes always win.