Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

not to mention if you can tie melee units up with scarabs or wraiths you can waltz up near to them and still pop the gateway.

i.e.- it IS a shooting attack, but it doesn't target anything. it only says unit in X range get kicked off the board.

BUT perhaps that needs to be discussed in yet ANOTHER post.

Does it say it is a shooting attack or an ability that is activated in the shooting phase? Could make a difference as if it is an ability is it technically a gun?

Praxiss wrote:You can still use the whip OR the arc and still port units to the lith though.....who could then fire.

But can a unit prot through on the same turn the 'lith Deep Strikes?

1) Lith DS
2) 20 man warrior unit ports to the lith
3) Lith lets rip with Whip and warriors ream something with a possible 40 RF shots.

2) Be careful, if I'm not mistaken when you teleport 20 Warriors they can't disembark properly because of the space issues (2").

Huh. Didn't think of that.

Arse.

Praxiss - it's a shooting attack

Azazel - that would be why i a) mentioned 4th ed and b) mentioned 5th ed SA removing the WBB *EXAMPLE* from the SA rule.

The Dragon - the models awaiting WBB are members of the unit, and attempting to bring them back would be using a special rule to save the unit, which is denied by WBB. THAT is why WBB did not work against SA

Praxiss wrote:You can still use the whip OR the arc and still port units to the lith though.....who could then fire.

But can a unit prot through on the same turn the 'lith Deep Strikes?

1) Lith DS
2) 20 man warrior unit ports to the lith
3) Lith lets rip with Whip and warriors ream something with a possible 40 RF shots.

Change that 20 to 16 (That's all that can legally fit within 2" of the mono door) and you've got an idea there...unless your enemy has any template/blast weapons because those warriors are going to be TIGHTLY packed.

not to sound churlish, nosferatu...but no.

We had this discussion in depth... and I mean literally you and I were part of it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/252592.page

Pages 5 and 6 are the most germane as it took me some time to reason through it myself in that thread. As I recall however you basically ignored the developing posts...and sort of kept stating the same thing over and over again. Not trying to be an ass, but you didn't really bother trying to convey reason so much as that 'you were right' and It didn't win many converts who persistantly thought they COULD use WBB because you didn't bother to go into the 'Why' of it. I know I was frustrated as hell for the longest time in that thread (pages 1-4) as I stumbled my way through it because of different folks dropping blanket rules without parsing into the specifics for me.

Anyways, as I recall the big break down of WBB was involved with models killed in a unit prior to SA. We had to establish that first and foremost that the downed models were still part of the the swept unit in the first place (and THAT was an intellecutal hurdle in and of itself) and that THEN when SA hit and the 'unit' was removed from play, WBB didn't help because (1) they were simply being removed as opposed to being removed as casualties and (2) the general 'ignore for normal game purposes' part of downed WBB models wasn't specific enough to prevent removal via SA.

Your argument, without really taking the time to explain it, had the problem that it hinged on 'saving the unit' which many necron players discounted because WBB still counted the 'unit' as dead and gone, yielding a KP and everything, leaving only the dead models on their sides as separate entities capable of standing up and joining another unit.

This is why it was critical in discussion to identify WHY downed models were still part of the unit being swept and then WHY WBB didn't save them.

Sheesh, I feel silly talking about stuff from a codex which isn't even legal any more. oh well.

No, just no

"Not to be an ass", but you entirely made up when unit assignment occured, contrary to the actual rules, in order to advance your contrary - to - the - rules opinion

The "downed' models are still part of the unit (that was swept, for clarity) UNTIL they attempt WBB; at that point their unit assignment is determined. Because, and this is fairly clear, the monolith rules did not work if your idea was actually true. Good job it isnt!

Oh, and as for the why i didnt do the entirely in depth review? Check post history. Check the number of times WBB questions were asked. If people bothered to search, so many threads would be saved.

Right well you're making a fine case for yourself here aren't you? lol. This suddent attitude attack of "I'm right and STFU" is sort of what caused a lot of knee-jerk disagreement even back then.

Anyways, I'm not disagreeing that downed models are part of the unit, nor that that doesn't change until WBB rolls are made.

I didn't make up ANY unit assignment. If you go on back to those posts and others on the subject (after that initial thread where I'd finally developed understanding) you'll see that I also reference the Monolith ability as well as the bodies being dragged along in fall back moves for evidence of the downed models being part of the unit.

My point was... that it wasn't cut and dry, the rules never actually said the models were part of the unit after dying, and the rationale supporting the end conclusion that they were had to be pieced together via multiple pieces of information. Then after that conclusion was made players needed a solid rationale for why WBB didn't work.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, people need quality rules-based explanations over abrupt judgment calls 9/10 times. In this game in advanced rules interaction the WHY is just as if not often more important than the WHAT.

No, the rules never said they werent, when the basic rules of the game said they were. You were aiming it from the wrong end - you knew they were part of the unit, so had to find reasons why they were not. You were attempting to find evidence they "still" were, as opposed to looking for evidence they werent. Essentially your H0 was incorrect.

Also - I dont need to make a case for myself, I dont have the ego you seem to.

p.13 of the old 'cron codex:

"Damaged Necrons are ignored completely for all normal game purposes such as unit coherency, measuring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on--they are debris only."

Add that up with the fact that the ability only worked on the basis of MODELS, which I might add could join whatever unit of the same type was closest, and you had a confusing situation.

If it was as cut and dry as you thought then why WERE there frankly like half-a-million threads trying to figure out what the hell was really going on? It was NOT just because of a bunch of 'jerk' necron players trying to get away with rules abuses. It was because folks were honestly befuddled.

Anyways, whatever you say we'll go with. I doubt you're going to budge on anything.

So, Right right. sure sure. okay big guy. Here, have a hug. Do you feel better now? I'm a monstrous rules-abusing child-eater. I'm sorry.

This thread has waaaay derailed from what I had initially asked about. The sad irony of it all is that this pointless quibbling brings home the fact that as bad as stuff with WBB was some of the new issues with cryptecks and RP/EL are just as bad.

Can't a necron codex ever just make sense?

Ward wrote it so no.

So, you see that quote you managed to find? At any point does it say it loses its unit ownership? No? Damn, thats EXACTLY what I was saying!

Wow, "the Dragon", apparently you think i was accusing people of being "jerks"? Could you find that somewhere, or could you not "quote" it?

Finally: it was clear, once you explained that the monolith failed to work in any meaningful way if unit assignment was lost at remove casualties stage. 99.99% of people understood and accepted that. You dont, but hey - carry on, it isnt relevant particularly. There have been half a million threads on equally clear subjects.

Sure. it's part of the unit except for when counting models for..

coherency
movement
shooting
assault distance
any other measurement ranges
making self-repair rolls (which hinge on proximity to models in a unit)
and the ever so helpful "and so on"-- the most blanket confusing rule exclusion ever.

"normal game purposes" was a wide gaping hole of WTF-ery. Hell, the only things the downed models DID act like part of a unit for were fall back moves and the monolith grab.

Fact is there WAS a legitimate question of whether or not the downed models counted as being part of the unit for purposes of the sweeping function since other obvious BGB rules regarding models in a unit were ignored via the "normal game purposes"/"and so on" clauses.

Anyways, like I said earlier have a hug. I also realize it's irrelevant now. After all, we have a whole new codex filled with equally terrible rules quandries to argue over. All of Dakka can explore them with us now.