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This is my attempt to create a repository for IG mechanize tactics gleaned from the collective experiences of all the IG players out there. I would prefer that contributors to this thread focus on the use of mechanized armies rather than infantry-heavy forces. It's nothing personal, just that infantry based armies handle differently and such tactics are not necessarily in the spirit of this thread.

For starters, I will introduce myself and my army. I am alarmingly new to the 40K world. So new in fact, that I have never played an actual game of 40K. However, I have settled on the IG as my chosen army and, being a self-diagnosed Tread Head, want to utilize a heavily mechanized force. Having no practical 40K experience, I want to gather as much knowledge as possible from more experienced players. That is the real purpose of this thread; to gather information from IG veterans concerning the best manner in which to employ a mechanized army against the wide spectrum of opponents one is likely to face in 40K.

I would be especially interested in hearing from IG players who field armies that are similar to mine. I've already gone through extensive fine tuning of my force with the help of those who contributed to my thread in the Army Lists forum, and here is the result:

B Troop, 1st Squadron, 38th Cadian Armored Cavalry Regiment - 1,500pts.
HQ PLT
CCS, 3x PG, 1x GL in Chimera w/ML, hull HF
Vet SQD, 3x PG in Chimera w/ML, hull HF

Red and White PLT
4x Vet SQD, 3x MG each, in 4x Chimera w/ML, hull HF each

Blue PLT
2x LRMBT w/BC, hull LC each, no sponsons
Vanquisher w/VC, hull LC, no sponsons, CDR Pask

I use the term "platoon" purely for the fluff factor. This army is based on what you would find in an actual Armored Cavalry unit; soldiers mounted in infantry fighting vehicles, supported by tanks. A company would typically have four platoons; HQ, Red, White and Blue. From the feedback I have received, HQ, Red and White seem solid as written. Blue PLT creates controversy as IG players love to debate the merits of the various heavy support choices available. I have constructed Blue PLTaccording to my own desires and would prefer that this thread not become an arguement over IG tanks. If there are any major points to improve the performance of the force I would welcome them, just don't let it become a fight over Russ v. Vanquisher v. Exterminator v. Demolisher etc.

Now, to the point. GEN George Patton once said, "I don't have time to learn from my mistakes, I would rather learn from someone else's". That is where you all come in. I would like contributions, observations, opinions, etc. regarding your tactical experiences handling mechanized IG on the battlefield. I would like this to break down into two parts: general tactics, and race-specific tactics. I will expound on this below.

General Tactics:
In regards to using a force like this in an "all-comers" style game or tournament, I have many potential talking points. In what manner do you typically deploy your various units? Is there a recommended method to how units advance and support one another in the field? Do you find that a force like this performs better when utilized in an offensive or defensive role? Most importantly, what are the critical identifiable strengths and weaknesses of a force like this, and how do you maximize or overcome them?

Race-Specific Tactics:
This is where I think this thread could prove its true value by pooling the collective experiences of IG players when going up against the various races in 40K. What sort of force compositions have you generally encountered in armies representing different races? What tactics have other races employed against you that were notably effective? Are there certain races that are particularly troublesome for a force like this? Most importantly, are there any recommended alterations to the force organization chart that yield greater success against certain races (ie: trading the Vanquisher for Hellhounds against Tyranids, fielding Hydra batteries against Eldar, etc.)?

Sun Tzu said that a good general finds victory and then goes to war, while a poor general goes to war and then tries to win. By pooling your collective experiences, this thread can become a database for IG mechanized tactics that will be beneficial for the greater good. I'll thank you in advance for your comments and contributions.

Well, I cant give you all the 'wisdom' I've picked up playing Guard over the years in a single post, but I'll do my best to summarize.

Essentially, your list needs to be able to handle all the following, to be considered a solid all-comers list;

You must be able to handle hordes. Try and imagine how you might fare against say 130 Ork boyz. In this regard, you're fairly well off. Hull heavy flamers on EVERYTHING, and large blast templates do a fairly good job of deleting hordes.

You must be able to reliably kill MEQ. Alot of the 'top' forces out there are mechanized marines of one flavor or another, plus Blood Angels do decent jumper-based lists. You need the firepower to reliably put down good numbers of T4 3+ save bodies. Your battlecannons are good in this role, and you've got a fair bit of plasma so I'd say you're reasonably well off on this one.

You must be able to reliably kill tanks. Can you handle AV13/AV14 vehicles well? Short answer to this is yes. You have a ton of melta. Melta kills tanks.

You must be able to reliably break alot of transports, preferably before they reach you. Generally this means lots of mid-strength torrent fire. S7 and S8 shooting with good range. In this regard, your list is a little lacking, but this can be fixed.

You must be able to take/contest objectives on both sides of the board. Generally this means a good number of scoring units, plus some decent high-mobility options for contesting/capturing objectives on your opponents side of the board. You have a decent number of scoring bodies, but lack mobility. Some people may be surprised at my saying this, but Chimeras are not actually terribly great for mobility. Having side AV10 makes pushing them up the board problematic, in that it becomes harder to protect your sides, while still moving forward. Once the opponent gets those side shots, your Chimeras start to pop or get immobilized, and your forward momentum breaks down considerably. This is, again, fixable.

Now on to the specific points I'd raise about your list. I know you said you didn't want arguments about Russes, however from both a mathhammer standpoint, and a practical experience standpoint... the Vanquisher sadly is just not very good. On paper it's an anti-tank unit, but sadly it just doesn't do it's job very well, and what's more it's expensive. Even more so when you add Pask. Having only a single shot that'll reliably punch through AV13/14, and that shot not being AP1 means that it just doesn't perform very well. Your melta vets are a far more reliable means of killing serious tanks. It's also way overpriced as a transport-buster. I would recommend dropping the Vanquisher and Pask. The two vanilla Russes are excellent, though I would drop the lascannons for free hull heavy flamers to augment your close-range anti-horde. It also means that if they get their battlecannon shot off, they can still park on an objective with that heavy flamer and keep it contested for you. I would highly recommend a squadron of Hydra Flak tanks. They're a steal at 75 points each, and add some much needed anti-transport to your force, and also make Eldar/Dark Eldar cry since they ignore turbo-boosting cover saves. Remember to give them free hull heavy flamer upgrades for if/when they get threatened by assault units.

For mobility, there are a few things you can consider. The Vendetta gunship is a fantastic unit, that is not only an extremely mobile fast skimmer that can outflank, it's a damn good gunship too with three twin-linked lascannons, making it a good transport killer, able to put wounds on MC's reliably, and can even threaten tanks (Especially if you get side/rear shots after outflanking). Add in the fact that you can put one of your melta vet squads in it to make it scoring (not to mention being able to drop them off deep behind enemy lines if needed!), and you have a great unit for just 130 points. Really helps with your mobility as well, turbo-boosting for a late-game contest on an enemy objective (Or even a late-game capture if it has troops onboard). Just be aware, it will tend to draw alot of fire. Though that can be a good thing as it means they aren't shooting at the rest of your tanks and transports. Also, a scout sentinel squadron are a very good choice. Arm them with autocannons and outflank them. Coming on they can get good chances of side/rear shots on enemy transports, and again they're excellent for getting in there to contest an objective. Good for tarpitting enemy infantry, since any unit without a power fist will be hard pressed to kill them in assault.

One other option to consider is the humble infantry platoon to replace one of your vet squads. While they lack the impressive firepower, they fill a couple of very important roles in a guard force. For one, they give you a cheaper way to add even more Chimeras to your force, for AV12 saturation. They put alot of scoring boots on the ground (Even the most basic platoon has two squads plus the platoon command squad, all of which score), they give you another excellent anti-horde unit. (Platoon command squad with four flamers, in a Chimera makes a real mess of infantry), and you can keep them either as mounted fire support bunkers (I tend to go with an autocannon and a flamer, so sitting back in their Chimera you get 3 multi-laser shots and 2 autocannon shots at range from each squad, decent if not amazing anti-transport fire), they give you a force to sit on your rear objective(s), and against deep-striking opponents you can use them disembarked as bubble wrap to protect your tanks from melta and assault.

In terms of race specific tactics, I'll give you a rough idea of what to expect from the general 'types' of force. The main thing to remember is that as Guard, most opponents will want to come to you. About the only force that'll beat Guard in a straight-up firefight are the Tau. Anyone else you can handily out-shoot.

Mech-marines: They come in various flavours, but play pretty similarly. Concentrate on breaking their transports at range as an absolute priority, then focus on mopping up their troops. Try to avoid being overly aggressive with your Chimera-bound melta vets and stay inside your transports unless you have an extremely good reason for getting out. Guard out of their tanks die in droves to pretty much everything marines can throw at you, and even basic tactical marines will butcher you in close combat. Try to protect your tanks and hydras from fast-moving landspeeders with multi-meltas that may very well deep-strike on you. (If your opponent is likely to deeps-strike, surround your priority targets with disembarked platoon infantry to create a buffer around them. Marines are tough, but generally few in number. Torrent fire will wear them down once they are out of their transports. (Multi-lasers and autocannons are good at this). If they're clumped up, for example after being de-meched by your hydras/multi-lasers/autocannons, then a well placed battlecannon round can make entire squads just go away.

Hordes: Most hordes are assault-based, generally Orks and Nids... though this can also include foot-Guard. Do NOT get out of your transports. So long as you are in your transports, you have an advantage. All your guns can hurt him, only a few of his guns can hurt you back. remember that moving vehicles are harder to hit in assault. It can often be worth moving a vehicle that is facing an assault 7-12" and sacrifice it's shooting, to make it 6's to hit in assault. Then you can move up other vehicles next turn to flamer the bunched up assaulting unit. Tank shocks are your friend, just dont shock over the models with powerfists/klaws, melta, etc to avoid embarrasing death or glory incidents. Use your mobility to keep them away while you pour on the templates. Bunch them enemy up wherever you can, either with tank shocks or drawing them into an assault, then apply heavy flamers. Remember that even if they break a tank in assault, they dont get to consolidate and your troops inside can still move away, assuming they weren't trapped and unable to disembark. Your mobility is also key to keep objectives secure and force them to keep trudging around the board after you. Hellhounds are gold against hordes, if you can fit one into your list.

Fast Lists: Coverall for things like Eldar, Dark Eldar, biker marines, and similar. These guys will have mobility advantage over you, and can make an objectives mission difficult. Focus on taking their skimmers out methodically, and use tough-to-shift stuff to contest objectives. Hydras have a field day against these lists, but will be a high priority target for your enemy so protect them as best you can. Most fast lists will try to dance around you and isolate a portion of your force, then use their high speed to concentrate against it, destroying you in detail, so try to avoid getting too spread out.

That's as much as comes to mind, there is more of course, far more than I could put into a forum post, but if you have questions just ask and I'll do my best to answer.

Thanks for the post. I especially like the tip about leaving the Vet SQDs embarked in their Chimeras. IG troopers have a nasty tendency to get butchered when left open to enemy shooting and assaults, so that is a nice trick to get around that.

I also like the fact that you brought up the apparent lack of mobility in mechanized infantry. I would have thought that IG squads in Chimeras would be more than mobile enough to maintain the initiative and seize objectives, but your point about the Chimera's soft side armor is a good one. Aside from fielding Valkries and Vendettas, have you found another way to remedy this problem?

I especially like your tips on dealing with assorted marine armies. Such forces seem like the most threatening to mechanized IG. What advice do you have for handling Tau? As you mentioned, they are one of the few armies that are capable of out shooting IG. So how do you handle an army that shoots as well as you, with a force that lacks specialized assault troops?

Your complaints about the Vanquisher seem to be nearly universal. From the comments I have received in the past, it seems that I am underestimating the anti-armor capabilities of this force and that a Vanquisher is not really needed. At the 1,500 point level, have you encountered many armies that are even capable of fielding significant numbers of AV13/14 vehicles?

The inclusion of Pask is another point of contention. Removing Pask would free up some points, but not really enough to add anything worth while to the army. What about putting Pask in an Exterminator with hull HF to serve more like an infantry support tank? That would theoretically allow Pask to put out multiple AC shots with a reliable degree of accuracy, and the hull HF provides additional utility in the event the main guns are lost. I can see this combination performing well against enemy transports, bikes, skimmers and infantry. The points I save would allow me to give a fourth PG to the CCS instead of the GL, and maybe an HK missile to the Exterminator so Pask gets one shot against AV13/14 vehicles.

Thanks again for the input. If you have any additional advice on the above talking points I would love to hear it.

Big S'arnt wrote:Your complaints about the Vanquisher seem to be nearly universal. From the comments I have received in the past, it seems that I am underestimating the anti-armor capabilities of this force and that a Vanquisher is not really needed. At the 1,500 point level, have you encountered many armies that are even capable of fielding significant numbers of AV13/14 vehicles?

The inclusion of Pask is another point of contention. Removing Pask would free up some points, but not really enough to add anything worth while to the army. What about putting Pask in an Exterminator with hull HF to serve more like an infantry support tank? That would theoretically allow Pask to put out multiple AC shots with a reliable degree of accuracy, and the hull HF provides additional utility in the event the main guns are lost. I can see this combination performing well against enemy transports, bikes, skimmers and infantry. The points I save would allow me to give a fourth PG to the CCS instead of the GL, and maybe an HK missile to the Exterminator so Pask gets one shot against AV13/14 vehicles.

If you leave the hull LC's on the tanks, then with all the melta, I think you've got enough anti-AV13/14, and you should probably listen to the crowd on the big V. (I've never used it so dunno). I also think you need a layer of anti-light armour, either an exterminator or a hydra squadron, though the tank seems to fit your fluff.

You may find Pask is too expensive at this point level, though he is darn tempting isn't he. If you have points left over, dozers aren't dakka-approved per se, but I'd think about one or two on your melta boats. With all those vehicles you will probably have to crash some trees and crush some ruins, especially to deploy the heavy flamers. Those and HK's on the tanks, like you say, for a bit stronger ranged AT. 10 pts for a 4th CCS plasma gun would be first though.

Looks like a solid mechvet list - have fun and good luck!

And get us some pictures once its done!

Glad you're finding this useful! I should point out that I'm by no means some kind of ultimate authority on Guard or 40k in general or anything, most of this is based on my observations from playing Guard for a good while. As with any advice you see on the internetz, be sure to try thing out for yourself a bit. Proxying is allways good in a friendly game, if you want to see how something works without splashing cash on a model. Be sure to subject things to a good number of tests before drawing any conclusions though!

Moving on to your questions, mobility. There's a good few options aside from the Valk/Vendetta. The Guard codex has quite a few good options with regards to alternative deployment, such as deep striking and outflanking. Al'Raheem in particular stands out, as an upgrade for a platoon command squad he makes the entire platoon outflank. There's several setups you can do for his platoon, using things like blob squads, or meched up squads in chimeras. You can also add things like special weapon squads with meltas or demo charges to bring some firepower with. Just dont give him heavy weapons teams, since you'll want him moving when he comes on. Also dont be afraid to throw his platoon command squad into combat if called for. Since he's not an IC, he cant be singled out in assault, and his power sword causes instant death which can in a pinch produce startling results. Once he's brought his platoon onto the board, he's basically done what you bought him for, so if he dies it's not a disaster.

Another option worth considering are the oft-maligned storm troopers. Their doctrines give them a couple of very good deployment options. Airborne Assault lets you precision deep-strike a 5 man squad with 2 meltas, and Reconnaissance gives them scout, which lets them outflank. And you can give them a Chimera. Not bad. Penal Legion are also an interesting choice. Alot of people dont rate them, but for 80 points you get a 10 man squad that are stubborn and scouts as standard (outflanking again), and additionally get a random special rule that either gives them 1) Assault 2 lasguns, 2) fleet, coutner-attack and furious charge, or 3) extra close combat wepaons and rending. Now none of those will ever make guardsmen sterling assault units, but arriving in an enemy's rear area a couple of turns into the game they can often pick off or tie up non-assault specialized rear units, or make an objective grab. Not too shabby for 80 points. (The internetz say they suck, but personally I've found them performing well consistently. Dont take my word for it though, give them a try and see how they work for you). Finally, you can just take Creed and give any damned unit you like scouts. Outflanking Leman Russ' anyone?

There's also the option of just shooting the enemy to pieces in turns 1-4, then dashing your Chimera's forward in the end-game to grab/contest objectives. A little lacking in finesse, but it can work.

Armies with lots of AV13/14 at 1500 points... not a huge number to be honest. Mech marines may put 2-3 Predator tanks on the table, which are AV13 front but only 11 on the sides, and will tend to sit back and shoot you from distance making it a slog to get melta into range. It's also technically possible for marines to drop 3 landraiders on you at that point level, but it's not exactly what you could call a great build. Other Guard might present you a number of Leman Russ tanks to deal with, and Orks can do a Battlewagon list. Tau may also put a couple of Hammerheads against you, again AV13 front.

Dealing with armies that can out-shoot you... which is generally Tau, but there's some other builds that can do it under certain conditions (Grey Knights, in the 24" range can put out a very serious amount of firepower, as can Razorwolves). With Tau... the main things to remember are that 1) They're even worse in assault than you are, and typically have fewer bodies. Sentinels can tie most Tau units up in assault forever. Just watch out for their Kroot screens. (Though with all your template weapons, you should have the tools to deal with them. 2) The biggest threat in a Tau force generally comes from their battlesuits. Prioritize your shooting accordingly. Autocannon/multilaser torrent fire can chew up battlesuits, and battlecanons simply delete them with instant-death, though a good Tau player will ensure they allways have cover saves. Try to protect your AV12 hulls early on from his fire, generate cover saves using smoke and screening vehicles wherever possible, and wear down his battlesuits as fast as you can and you are a good way towards winning. Generate side shots on his Hammerheads if at all possible. A 5 man squad of storm troopers with 2 meltaguns can precision deep-strike in close to get around his disruption pod save and take out a Hammerhead with reasonable reliability. Vendettas outflanking can also get side-shots, and potentially drop melta-vets in close with a first-turn scout move if you get first turn.

Pask... I wanted to like Pask. I really did, but I've never found him worth it for the points. He makes a Leman Russ really quite expensive, and works best on the BS-based shooting tanks, which are also the less good tanks. Point in case the Exterminator. It's not a terrible tank, but for the points (especially adding Pask), you can get 2-3 Hydras instead, which just do it better. That said, dont let me put you off trying out all the various Russ variants. As I said, proxying in friendly games is a great way to see how various units play out. Just try to keep changes small... work with a solid core that you know and understand, and experiment with only 1 or 2 units at a time. Play a good few games without changing the list, see how things work... then try another small change.

Hope all this helps, if you have any more questions feel free to ask.

Since you have a open HS slot, don't squadron. Alot of people say it's a bad idea.
I've done it for Hydras, Demolishers and LRBT. I never go more than 2 vehicles per sqd.
I've never had it cause much of an issue.YMMV.

On your CCS. Don't waste bs4 on anything other than Plasma/Melta.
And don't mix-n-match. Keep them all the same.

Yes, Rick, from what I've heard I should avoid squadroning HS choices. This may work out in games with higher point values, but at the 1,500pt level it is probably better to be able to choose three different targets. That being said, it seems that one of this army's strengths is being able to mass fires; focus as many guns as possible on a few select targets. The combined effects of the Russes and Chimeras should be able to sweep two or three units of infantry, bikes or light armor from the table in a good round of shooting.

I must admit, I get a "warm and fuzzy" feeling about this army with the removal of the Vanquisher. The Vanquisher plays too specific of a role which minimizes tactical flexibility. Removing Pask would free up 55pts, but would that degrade the Exterminator's performance too much? And that raises the question about what to purchase with the available points. A single Sentinel seems like a bit of a waste, and five additional HK missiles seems pointless. Dozer blades may prove useful on tables with lots of terrain, but I would rather use the points to improve the army's overall firepower.

What is the point cost on a Hydra? Two Hydras in exchange for an Exterminator might be a decent trade. They would have to be squadroned due to the lone remaining HS slot, and I'm sure the effect of firing 8 AC shots at a single target would be very effective. It would also help with the mobility issue since those fast moving bikes and skimmers would be knocked out in short order. Would all vehicles need line of sight to fire together? But again, what do you do with approximately 60pts?

I'm not opposed to developing multiple army variations. I'll just paint a few extra Hydras and Russ turrets, and magnetize the hull weapons so I can sub out Vanquishers, Exterminators, Hydras and maybe even Hellhounds depending on what race I'm up against.

If you are planning a Exterminator w/o sponsons, or other upgrades, it's the same price as a pair of Hydras.

Looks like Furycat got most of it covered.

five additional HK missiles seems pointless.

Not sure about that. 2-3 S8Ap3 hits are a great way for removing unwanted transports, MC's popping up... I must admit I tend to shave these off if points are shprt though, but I always feel they could be useful.

I'm not opposed to developing multiple army variations. I'll just paint a few extra Hydras and Russ turrets, and magnetize the hull weapons so I can sub out Vanquishers, Exterminators, Hydras and maybe even Hellhounds depending on what race I'm up against.

Definitely mazgnetize! It keeps your options open, and the new tanks make it real easy.

Always remember the golden rule of the IG "We roll more dice than you".

Furycat did a great job to cover your bases. I fight against a great deal of Marines of all Chapter variety.
I employ two tanks that he did not discuss and so I'll touch on them. I do not disagree with his opinions of the Vendetta, Hydras, Hellhound, etc. I have not fielded a Vanquisher, but agree there are better options.
The first I use is the Basilisk. I've been fielding this since the old days of "guess the range to the target and see what happens". I miss the excitement of guessing, but overall it's more solid. The Basilisk seems to create a lot of discussion. Guard players either love it or hate it. I love it, when I saw the model many moons ago it is what made me pick the Guard, and my Basilisk never lets me down. It always either piles up the kills, or creates such a high profile target that I know my opponent will go after it and I can properly set-up a kill zone to gun down whatever takes out my Basilisk.
I field the Bassy is a few ways. I always bury it in a corner to exposure. Sometimes I bury it in my main area of deployment and screen it with an entrenched Guard platoon on foot (I like this as a good firing base to drop autocannons at. Blob two squads together to reduce kill points and give them the twin-linked vs MC and vehicles from a CCS to pop transports, light AV). If I am keeping a tight formation I will form a perimeter with my Chimeras/Russes around it to barrage the enemy before going for a counterattack.
The last position is that I will put the Bassy on the opposite side all by itself.
The Bassy will rain down Earthshaker shells at the opponents firing base, or flanked vehicles. For whatever reason, it paints a great big target on it, and your opponent will go after it. If I have left the Basilisk by itself, whatever units commit to taking it out become exposed to firing lanes as my Russes/ACs/Chimeras will light them up.

The second tank is the Demolisher. It has short range, but it's a great counterattack unit. I use it to work in tandem with my LRBT. They stay in close enough range, so if one is unfortunately destroyed in by an assault (rare occurence) the other can aim their cannon and take out the assaulters. I use the Demolisher to hunt the big boys (AV13/14) as well as target the high save units (such as Termies). It's a solid investment, and while it may not be an auto include for every list, I think every Guard commander should keep 1 Demolisher in reserve to field when they see fit.

Absolutely in agreement with Stormleader on the Demolisher, it's a fantastic tank that scares EVERYTHING, it's barely more expensive than a vanilla Russ, and has the added advantage of AV11 rear armour which makes a huge difference to it's survivability vs assault. It's also one of the few Russ variants that imo are worth putting sponsons on if you have the points to spare. Either plasma cannon sponsons, which make it an excellent hunter of elite infantry/MC's and the like, or multi-melta sponsons, which make it a fantastic heavy tank hunter. (And it still scares the crap out of elite infantry).

In my local meta I love it because S10 instant-deaths thunderwolf cavalry, and that makes me smile.

I'm kind of curious but what strageties do you guys have so far as IG mech vs necrons and their

1) night fighting and occassional lightning bolts (usually followed by long range shooting by them while alot of your army is stuck in the night)

2) fast assaults with scarabs/wraiths?

3) very hard to kill big blobs of guys with tesla?


I'm imagining that #3 at least can be countered with psyker battle squads and their morale thing but I'm not really comming up with good tactical solutions to the other 2.

1) Searchlights? Pretty much everything has them. You pick something with other troops nearby, try multilasering with chimera's (preferably in cover)it till the searchlight finds it, the toss all your artillery and templates in that general direction. IF you original target happens to be destroyed, rinse and repeat. IG is one of the best armies for night fight scenarios, ironically enough. For really long range, we have searchlights, and for all our mleta etc. , night fight doens' t matter.

2) Bubble wrap. I run a hybrid list (foot platoons + mechvets), so I have 10-30 stubborn infantrymen keeping tanks safe if I eexpect any scarab farming.

3) A big unit of Immortals is pretty slow, so outmaneuvre and ignore, or toss AP3 templates if you can't ignore it for some reason. If you have a PBS, Lower resolve and escort them off the table, like you said .

It seems to me that the Crack Shot rule which accompanies Pask would be very beneficial when paired with the ACs on an Exterminator. Making those ACs strength 8, with the increased BS, would effectively wreck incoming transports and heavy infantry. However, I understand that the tank must remain stationary to receive those benefits, which doesn't sound like a great trade off.

Alot of players have touted the use of a Demolisher. I retooled the list and found that if I scrap Pask, I could field a Demolisher with hull HF and MM sponsons and then give to other Russes an HK missile each. Though it may be a small chance, I like the notion of being able to toss two BC rounds and two HK missiles at the enemy on turn one and possibly take out a transport or two before he even gets out of his deployment zone. As Stormleader mentioned, I could see the Demolisher working in tandem with the HQ PLT to serve as a very violent and effective element to counter attack enemy breakthroughs. However, this raises the question as to how do you deploy the army in such a manner that the Demolisher survives long enough to lead the counter attack? Such a tank would be pretty scary and undoubtably attract heavy volumes of fire. It would be a shame to lose it before the enemy came within range of that siege cannon.

A topic we have not yet touched on is the use of orders in this army. I understand the use of orders and its benefit to foot mobile infantry PLTs, but how does that carry over to a mechanized force? Do you find orders to be overly important to such an army? Would you recommend finding the points necessary to equip the PLTs with a vox network? It seems that "Fire on my Target" and "Bring it Down" would come in handy, especially when paired with the seven PGs in HQ PLT. Could the CCS issue those orders to the Plasma Vets if neither squad has a vox caster? Finding the points would be easy enough by dropping the MM sponsons from the Demolisher, but is it worth it in the long run?

The Demolisher/Multi-melta setup is very effective, and as you point out will very likely attract alot of attention from your opponent. However, keeping it safe long enough to get into a fight is generally not too difficult. For one thing, AV14 is incredibly difficult for most armies to crack at long range. Most will rely on melta to do the job, which REQUIRES them to come into Demolisher range. Happy days. If you do find your opponent directing huge volumes of S9/S10 fire at the Demolisher, don't be too disheartened if it takes a beating, remember that it's soaking up a huge amount of your opponents high-strength long range fire, which in turn is sparing the rest of your army. With all armies, but *especially* with Guard, no one unit should be so essential to your battle plan that you cant stand seeing it destroyed.

You can also increase it's survival chances by providing it cover while getting into range. Screen it with Chimeras as it advances (And pop smoke on those Chimeras if needed to give both them AND the Demolisher cover saves). Also the Demolisher itself has smoke launchers that you can pop if there's nothing in range of it's murdercannon. You can also screen it from melta to a degree by simply surrounding it with other vehicles and/or infantry. (This is a great use for that infantry platoon!). If the enemy cannot physically move within 6" due to a wall of Guard bodies, his meltaguns become alot less useful. Finally, keep it moving if threatened with assault. Even at just 6" a turn, half your opponent's swings will miss, and combined with it's AV11 rear armour it has a pretty solid chance of surviving.

Finally, you can use the fear factor that it's main armament causes as a form of area-denial. Park it on an objective, and create a 24" bubble around it where the enemy really doesn't want to put his good units, for fear of Demolishering. However, you just have to accept that sometimes despite your best efforts the tank will die, possibly without firing a shot. But because your list will have a good balance of threats, it's loss means that the stuff your opponent DIDN'T dedicate time to killing will do him instead.

As for orders, they are very useful no doubt, but in a mechanized force you are hampered by the fact that you cannot give orders to units that are embarked in a transport... and you REALLY don't want to be getting out of your transports without a good reason. However, you CAN give orders with a command squad that are embarked, to a unit that is disembarked so there are a few things you can do to use orders to your advantage.

1) Incoming! - Useful for a unit that have had their Chimera popped, to try and keep them alive. Especially if they are on an objective. Remember, if you need them shooting/running again next turn, you can use Get Back In the Fight! on them. Also very VERY useful if you are using your infantry platoon to bubble-wrap or screen other units, can make them nigh impossible to remove with ranged fire.

2) Move Move Move! - Again, if a squad find themselves Chimera-less, this is a great way to get them where they need to be. (Usually either an objective, or screening other units). This order lets a foot-slogging unit be almost as mobile as if they were still mounted.

3) Bring it Down! - Sometimes, something big and nasty absolutely, positively NEEDS to die. This is where your CCS or a Vet squad roar up (usually 12") in their Chimera, leap out, bravely kill the monster/tank with the aid of this order... and then very likely die a horrible death since they're out of their Metal Bawks.

4) Get Back in the Fight! - Generally used in the turn following an Incoming! order, to get the squad either running or firing again.

The other two are generally less useful in a mechanized list I find, though you might occasionally want to give a blobbed platoon First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire.

Vox casters... not in a mechanized list. You'll be using orders too infrequently for it to really pay off. They're more useful for a foot list. You can allways issue orders if the target of the orders is within' 12" (For a CCS) or 6" (For a PCS), and the target is not embarked in a transport. Remember, if your CCS/PCS is mounted, you measure from the hull of their Chimera.

The Chimera is fine but it needs flank protection. This is the ideal position for a LR or in lieu of that a more expendable choice. The battle cannon is a poor Anti-tank choice but you have the option of multi-melta and lascannons that can do nicely. Otherwise the super melta-armed light tank may have a role.

A Vanquisher with a Las Cannon and Multi-Melta makes a great dedicated tank hunter. Having just one can hurt anything AV 13+ quite easily.

Yes, I was tracking the rule that orders cannot be given to embarked units, but I wasn't sure if the same scenario applied to a CCS giving orders. The way I'm envisioning this army deploying is Red and White PLTs on line in the center with either a table edge or Russes protecting the flanks. Blue PLT with the remaining tank will be deployed approximately 12in behind to counter attack against any particularly threatening enemy units and provide some fire support. This would also allow the CCS to pass orders to any of the line units that lose their Chimera.

I like the idea of putting HK missiles on the two Russes, and I will probably just paint an extra turret for the remaining tank. This last tank can retain the hull HF with MM sponsons and then can become either a Demolisher or an Exterminator with HK missile depending upon the opponenet.

You guys mentioned the use of smoke launchers to provide cover saves; just to be clear, smoke launchers are included in the cost of the Russ, yes? If I understand you correctly, smoke provides a cover save to the vehicle and any friendly models behind it in the direction of line of sight. That is a great tip. Now, how does line of sight apply to friendly units? Can squads or tanks fire over friendly units between them and the enemy? I'm sure that is an elementary question, but bear in mind I haven't yet played a game of 40K, haha. That bit of knowledge would likely have a significant impact on the manner in which units are deployed.

Nah, the smoke doesn't actually provide cover to units behind, it's the vehicle itself that is (hypothetically) covering at least 50% of the hull of a vehicle behind it. So, as the front vehicle has popped smoke, both vehicles are now getting a cover save (as opposed to just the vehicle behind, which was getting one to begin with).

You can't fire over your vehicles unless you have indirect fire. However if you can draw LoS down the turret then LoS is not blocked. So for instance, most Russ turrets and Sent weapons can see over the back of a chim. So it depends on what exactly you mean by 'fire over' i guess. It's all about LoS down the barrel of the gun. Infantry can 'peek' around the vehicle, only those models that can see can shoot but if half the squad is behind the vehicle (from the direction they are being shot at) then the squad will get cover.

I've noticed a lot of guys tossing around the term "castle formation", which I'm assuming is defensive in nature. Can anybody provide a little more detail on this? Also, do you find that a force like this handles better when arrayed in a defensive posture? It seems that this army's biggest strengths lie in all its well armored vehicles and considerable firepower, so is it best to just sit tight and let the enemy come to you?

Are there any races against whom you recommend going on the offensive? It seems that some of the more delicate armies, like Eldar and their Dark counterparts, would be a force you would potentially want to attack. Tau also seem to be an army against which you would want to be aggressive, simply because they have the ability to potentially outshoot IG.

However, I'm sure there's more to a mechanized assault than just charging headlong across the board; that's for uncivilized brutes, like Orcs. Would you use your tanks as an armored spearhead, or let the infantry take the lead and use tanks to secure the flanks? Patton used to say that his plan was to "hold the enemy by the nose, and kick him in the ass". What he meant was use two infantry divisions to attack forward and hold their nose, while an armored division swept around the flank to kick their ass. What are your thoughts on how that would play out in 40K?

Castling generally refers to a type of deployment, where you cluster your force into a small area, often a corner, in an effort to maximize your protection against enemy fire/assaults both by providing cover to as much of your force as possible (Through a combination of hiding behind terrain, and using vehicles on the outside of your formation to provide cover to those in the midde), and also by making it very difficult to get at units on the inside of your castle. It has strengths and weaknesses, most notably it is weak vs an enemy with access to large amounts of high-strength ordnance blasts (Since scatters will very likely still score a hit).. and it can be very limiting on your movement which can make you tactically inflexible. Having vehicles on the outside of the castle stunned, immobilized or wrecked can make it very difficult for vehicles in the center to get out.

In all honesty, how you deploy and maneuver are possibly the most important parts of winning in 40k, and will vary depending on what opponent you face, how their list is constructed, and also on what the mission is and how the terrain and objectives (if any) are set up. Keep the mission in mind at all times, one of the biggest mistakes inexperienced players make is to lose sight of the actual mission objectives and get hung up on trying to kill enemy units, or reacting to what their opponent does. Similarly, the relative value of your units will change based on what your opponent has, what the mission is, and even what stage of the game you are at. If your enemy has little or no heavy armour, then the relative value of your melta vet units goes down. Similarly if your opponent has brought alot of Terminators, then your AP2 units value goes up accordingly. A squad of platoon guardsmen would normally be considered very unimportant, but if it is late in the game in an objectives mission they suddenly become FAR more important than your Russes since they can score, and thus win you the game. In this situation, sacrificing a Russ to protect the infantry squad might very well be a highly sensible choice.

When planning your movement, consider what threats your opponent has that can impact your force. If you are mostly in AV12 transports and vehicles, then any long-ranged S7+ shooting is a threat, but lower-strength shooting is not. How do the threats your opponent has change depending on how you move? Is his principle firepower long ranged? How good is available cover on your side of the board? How easily can you manufacture cover for your vehicles through popping smoke and positioning some vehicles to act as cover for others? Does he have alot of close-ranged firepower? For example alot of melta? How does this change your thoughts on how to position your units? There are alot of variables that can impact how to best deploy and move your units, so there is no easy 'Do this' answer.

Things to remember about playing mechanized forces;

1) Tanks can reliably move 12" in a turn, or 6" if you want to shoot, and may pivot freely.
2) Very few things actually prevent you moving. Terrain can be moved through, albeit with a risk of immobilizing your vehicle. Even ruins can be moved through, which alot of people tend to forget. Yes, your Chimera can drive through the wall of that ruined building, if you dont mind taking a risk.
3) Enemy units do not neccesarily stop you moving. Tank-shocking is extremely potent, even if your enemy will pass their moral check, you can force his units to move out of your way. With careful tank-shocking you can clear infantry off an objective, or force them to bunch up for a flamering.
4) Death or Glory should not neccesarily deter you, depending on the circumstance. Remember, you have to physically move through the MODEL with the weapon that want's to death or glory. You can still safely tank-shock a unit with a melta gun or power fist, so long as you dont pass over that model. Even if your enemy will get a chance at death or glory with a model that stands a good chance of hurting your tank, it may still be worth it. Remember, if the unit fails to stop your vehicle, it is removed. No saves, no multiple wounds, no eternal warrior. It's just gone. Since only a stunned, immobilized, or wrecked/explode result actually stops the vehicle, it can be a serious risk for an expensive model. Yeah, an MC might be almost assured of penetration, but they can flub their dice. Watching a Hive Tyrant casually penetrate your Chimera... only to tear the multilaser off and get crushed under 40 tons of armoured Imperial might is priceless. Consider how much you value the tank, vs how much he likely values the tank shocked unit, and what impact the tank shock can have on the game. If it's late game and you want him off an objective, it is often worth the risk.
5) Dont charge forward intent on getting into shooting range asap. It may not always be the best idea. Often there will be units you want to hold back, for example a unit of plasma vets are often best kept safe until a critical moment. They may only get one round of shooting in the game, but if that round of shooting kills an MC or wipes out a unit of Terminators that would otherwise be tearing up your force, it was worth keeping them protected for that moment.

There is more, of course but this post is getting long as it is. Experience and practice are by far the best teachers of the fine art of maneuver in 40k. Think carefully about how you intend to move, base your decisions on what your enemy is doing, and is LIKELY to do, as well as on the WHOLE of your force, and all this while keeping the objective in mind. After a game, think back over how it went and analyze any mistakes you made. Think how you might have done things differently to deal with unexpected threats from your opponent, or losses you took. I find that writing battle reports helps hugely with evaluating what you did right, what you did wrong, and how you could do things better. Plus it allows others to live vicariously through reading your reports!

Those are some good tips about tank shocking enemy units. I've heard of the tactic, but was really unsure of how it actually handled in-game. I can see the value of roasting enemy units with hull HFs, then driving them off the table with a well timed tank shock; very nice return on invested points. I'm curious as to how tank shock would work using a Chimera if troops were still embarked inside. Do they just hang on and enjoy the ride, then disembark if the vehicle is knocked out?

Your points about the relative value of units are very good also. I had previously viewed my tanks as being the primary "casualty producing weapons" in the force, with the Vet SQDs serving more as protection or a distraction. But the Vets are the only units that can score, so the tanks need to act more like a delivery system to get them into position on the table. Plus, those short ranged MGs aren't going to serve much of a purpose by simply hanging back and guarding the rear. Are there any restrictions on what weapons infantry can fire while embarked inside a Chimera?

One thing I'm trying to come to grips with is the notion of what constitutes "acceptable casualties". In my mind, I look at this army and try to think of ways I can protect all of the individual units from taking damage, which isn't very realistic. Having a lot of armor makes my list seem pretty survivable, but eventually those infantry squads will have to dismount, close with and destroy the enemy. I think that if half of this army is still in existence at the end of the last turn it will be a very good day. IG commanders don't concern themselves with casualties, just victory.

Recently I've been toying with the idea of substituting some or all of my Vet SQDs with a PCS and regular Infantry SQDs. The reduction in points cost could theoretically allow for the inclusion of some additional units, most likely in the form of either Fast Attack choices or supporting Heavy Weapons SQDs. Would the trade off be worth the perceived weakening of my primary Troop choices?

Additionally, I've been looking at the possibility of painting a sufficient number of Vet models armed with flamers so that I could replace my MG Vets with flamers when facing horde armies. Doing so would shave a significant number of points from the force and, coupled with the points accumulated by removing some HK missiles from my tanks, allow me to field a few sentinels or Hellhounds. Again, is sacrificing the MGs worth the additional models? A few sentinels armed with ACs seem like a worthwhile investment against certain enemies.

After some consideration, I think I may sacrifice one of my MG Vet SQDs in order to field a Hellhound and two sentinels. Having four troop choices at the 1,500pnt level seems sufficient for claiming objectives, and I believe the army as a whole would benefit from the additional support elements. By removing the HK missiles from the Leman Russes, or the MM sponsons from the Demolisher, I would have enough points to equip the sentinels with ACs and the Hellhound with extra armor so that they can better support the Vet SQDs.

The extra firepower from the sentinel's ACs could greatly assist with targeting enemy transports/light armor/bikes, which frees up the Leman Russes to hunt enemy armor and large troop concentrations. Additionally, the sentinels can linger near the Vet SQDs and act as a tar pit/speed bump against enemy assault units if necessary. Up-armoring the Hellhound would give it the survivability necessary to move forward with the Vet SQDs and push enemy units off of objectives. Plus, since my enemy would now have to assign anti-tank weapons to killing it, the Hellhound may attract some of that threat away from my Russes.

Against horde armies, the Vet SQDs from Red PLT will trade their MGs for Flamers. The extra points can be used to equip my tanks with HF sponsons so that they can better support the Vet SQDs against the inevitable flood of enemy infantry. If necessary, the Hellhound will drop its extra armor to facilitate this, as horde armies traditionally lack a great deal of anti-tank weapons.

Unless I've missed something big, I'm pretty happy with the way my list has taken shape. The army has enough flexibility in its design to allow for the various units to be equipped with a variety of weapons to deal with many different enemies. Thanks for all the assistance and input.

Flamer Vets are, in my opinion, one of the most undervalued units in the 'Vet's Meta'. Being able to fire three templates simultaneously can throw on alot of auto-hits, especially combined with a turret mounted Heavy Flamer.

You could further augment them to be objective takers; give the rest shotguns and the sergeant a power weapon and you have a decent unit able to assault troop-held objectives.

Instead of four units of mech vets, consider this configuration:

1 unit of mech vets

1 infantry platoon
PCS with chimera (put your four flamers here--the BS3 doesn't matter with auto-hits)
Inf Squad with chimera
Inf Squad with chimera
SWS with 3 melta
SWS with 3 melta

Deploy the infantry squads outside their transports (you can even blob them if you want) and have the SWS's embark on the infantry squads' chimeras turn one. The disembarked infantry can screen tanks or hunker in terrain at a rearward objective, still leaving you four scoring units in chimeras with meltas or flamers to maneuver with.

You lose a little ballistic skill, but actually wind up with more bodies and more scoring units for about the same cost.

Sudojoe...

You can partially abrogate these threats during list building...

1) Null deployment works best here. This means you want an Astropath to reserve and ideally Al Rahem, Harker, and/or Vendettas to make it so that you don't *have* to send everything in along your long table edge. A smart Crons player will take the first turn getting into position for a brutal multiassault on your transports as they enter play, then hit you turn 2 or 3.

2) Bubble wrap works well. Feeding the Scarabs a unit also works well. Most people don't know how multiassaulting works anyway, and *think* they can multiassault vehicles ~9" apart. Easier said than done...so feed up an easy unit then roll them up with Manticores, Hydras, and Multilasers. All of the above will instadeath Scarab Bases, and Manticores will instagib 2 bases for every failed save.

3) PBS. Psyker Battle Squads are fantastic against Necron troops. You should always take one in any event...they're too good to pass up.

Looking at my list for the thousand's time, I couldn't shake the feeling that some of the points/units could be reallocated to make the list better and more flexible. With that in mind, I set out to trim the fat. I think I've finished my final tinkering with the army list, and the results are below. Of course, every time I say that I generate a bunch of responses that invariably send me back to the drawing board. Let's see how this one goes.

HQ: 165 pts.
1x CCS w/4x PGs, Chimera w/ML and hull HF

Red PLT: 415 pts.
2x Vet SQDs w/3x PGs each
2x Chimeras w/ML and hull HF
Hellhound w/IC and hull HB

White PLT: 415 pts.
same as Red PLT

Blue PLT: 505 pts.
2x LRMBT w/BC, hull LC, no sponsons
Demolisher w/DC, hull HF, HKM, no sponsons

I really like the feel of this list. It maintains the basic fluff PLT structure I was after, but by scrapping one Vet SQD and some other small bits I was able to add some things I really wanted. All the MGs from the previous version of the list have been successfully replaced with PGs; expensive but very effective. This theoretically makes the list a bit light on anti-tank capabilities, but the Leman Russ LCs and Demolisher should allow me to scrape by. Plus, with so many PGs, I have a good chance to "get lucky" against AV10-12 vehicles. It also makes this army much more formidible against the many Space Marine variants/Necrons I'm likely to face.

The addition of the Hellhounds makes me feel pretty good. They are fast and capable of covering lots of ground, and will likely be instrumental in burning opponents off of objectives or holding the line against hordes. On the subject of hordes, my Vet SQDs can exchange their PGs for Flamers should I feel the need. Those points will be reallocated to HF sponsons for my tanks to fend away Orks, Tyranids and the like. Plus, they represent two additional vehicles my opponent must account for. My last 10 points went to an HKM for the Demolisher just so it could have at least one weapon ranged beyond 24in. People may be lulled in complacency by the Demolisher's short range and accidentally give me a chance for one lucky shot.

As always, I'm still open to suggestions, particularly if anyone has an ideas about easy ways to add some anti-armor power to the list. A suicide CCS with MGs is possible but seems like a waste. Hope you enjoy.

2 LRBT are very effective tools as pieces of mobile terrain/cover. One or both can be used to hide a manticore or medusa. I think 2lrbt or 1rlbt+ 1demolisher and 1 manticore/medusa is a solid combination. Personally I think a vanilla LRBT, a demolisher, and a manticore is the way to go to maintain the theme of your list. The LRBT and a chimera can bodyguard the manticore making it hull down or out of LOS to most targets. Hull down=3+ cover save. Without a 3+ cover save manticores tend to die fast. The demolisher's gun is too short range to babysit a manticore, but it can escort a scoring unit's chimera to it's destination. The side armor 10 of a chimera really needs protection, something a demolisher excels at.


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Big S'arnt wrote:
The addition of the Hellhounds makes me feel pretty good. They are fast and capable of covering lots of ground, and will likely be instrumental in burning opponents off of objectives or holding the line against hordes. On the subject of hordes, my Vet SQDs can exchange their PGs for Flamers should I feel the need.

Noooooooooooooo Giving vets flamers makes the baby emperor cry.

Heavy flamers on everything is usually enough.

If you really want to go flamer crazy add a platoon. Use a quad flamer PCS to perform the jobs you were thinking of giving to the flamer vets. There are lots of different uses for the 20 guardsmen in the platoon. Bubble wrap for a tank, advance them behind tanks using the tanks for cover, backfield objective holders, or hold them in reserve so they can be a rapid firing ambush unit. Once you find a way to use the 2 squads of guardsmen on foot it opens up another use they have. They can buy 2 chimera, and then 2 SWS can snag their ride. That's 6 more mechanized special weapons slots in 2 squads for the same price as a single vet squad.

I think you should fill up your heavy slots, because that is where most of our cool toys are.

Regarding heavy choices, I am a big fan of colossi, squadded in 2, or 3 in large battles. They have S6 AP3 and ignore cover. They are the perfect MEQ killer. LRBTs are cheaper and can move and shoot, and Basilisks are S9, but as all of them do not ignore cover, most of the MEQ killing value is lost. Bumping the marine saving throw from 3+ to 4+ just does not justify the points. Also, colossi can fire indirect, so just put them behind a big solid piece of terrain and fire away. They cannot instakill MEQ but S6 still wounds them on 2+ and they ignore armor and cover. Also, they are useful against things that rely on speed-based cover saves, e.g. jetbikes and reavers, and they disallow FNP on T3 troops (e.g. DE wyches), which is quite handy as well, especially in combo with ignoring cover. They can easily wipe out an entire squad of disembarked wyches.

Another must for me in HS is a pair of hydras, which are dirt-cheap for what they do, and synergize well with the colossi, as the former pop light transports and force the passengers into the resulting crater, making them ready for the pie plates of the latter.

The third slot can be a couple of leman russes, my preference being for executioners with flamers. The plasma is brutal and even if shot off, the HF is still good and some tank shocks or blocked lanes are useful as well. I used to like plasma sponsons, but things just get too expensive, one gets wasted on the move, and the extra bulk makes it harder to manover without difficult terrain checks. The AP2 on the massed plasma of the executioner is also good against TEQ and MEQ out of cover.

This list will have to count on vendettas and meltas for AT against Av13-14, but that is fine if run with a meltavet spam.