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Made in us
Battlefield Professional





New York

Okay so with how powerful steadfast is, why in the world would anyone run horde?

I recently played a game against chaos demons. He was running 40 Bloodletters in horde, 10 x 4. I was playing Tomb Kings and got a charge with my Warsphinx and a flank with my heavy horse. I trounced him in combat... but in the end he held because he was steadfast. He lost only 1 dude due to demonic instability which was ward saved.

Becuase he was steadfast: disruption didn't count on the flank and the negatives for taking some 10 wounds in combat were negated. It led me to wondering why in the world would anyone run Hordes to begin with. He got only a handful of attacks against he sphinx - it was truly being Steadfast which won him that battle. Why would you bother running 10 x 4 and not 5 x 8?


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Sisters of Battle (Seraphim spam)

WHFB:
2400 Empire
3000 Tomb Kings 
   
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40 bloodletters hitting you head on is pretty brutal with all that hatred. In horde they get 10 more attacks against an even frontage foe. with hatred and s5 that's huge.

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Auburn CA

Because against units that have wider frontage than a single monster hordes can dish out tons of pain. Also if memory serves you can not wardsave instability.

It is really unfair to judge a horde on the fact that it did not do much against a single monster.

 
   
Made in lv
Camouflaged Zero





Where the sun crosses the field of blood.

When you're in steadfast formation, you're relying on steadfast to keep you safe.
When running in horde, you're counting on your kills to keep you safe.
Defensive units (or defensively played units) go steadfast to win combat by just standing their. A unit with weak attacks, (example: with 1/2 probability to hit and 1/3 to wound) would gain another 1 - 2 wounds by being in horde, not as powerful as being in steadfast.
An offensive unit OTOH (1/2 to hit + reroll = 3/4 to hit, 5/6 to wound) would case another 5 - 6 wounds in combat, most likely winning them the combat too.
There's no reason to be steadfast if you're planning on winning the combat by force.

 
   
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I go horde because it means at least 9 more S6 attacks and usually more like 12 or 15 more.

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On a sombreo, wearing a deckchair.

I go horde because putting 18 ogres freaks the crap out of your opponent, as does 6 mournfang, but i haven't quite got to the point i can run 18 mournfang.

This message was edited -5416 times. Last update was at 18/11/46BC 14:51:61
Lorna wrote:1st Rule of Cooking: If it can be wrapped in Bacon, it should be.
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Regnak wrote:interesting stuff although I'm disappointed that Squats failed to make the 6th Ed box
 
   
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I didn't know steadfast helped unstable models? Wouldn't he lose the full 10 guys? Steadfast lets you take break tests on unmodified leadership.


And steadfast does not negate disruption.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/05 04:10:59







 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

scubasteve04 wrote:I didn't know steadfast helped unstable models? Wouldn't he lose the full 10 guys? Steadfast lets you take break tests on unmodified leadership.


And steadfast does not negate disruption.


You've got that backwards.
Disruption does not negate steadfast.
Daemonic instability and steadfast is kosher.
If he's a bloodletter unit (Ld7) and is steadfast, he's testing against LD7. If he loses combat by 1 or 100, with steadfast it's an Ld7 test.
If he rolls an 8, he takes 1 wound, a 9 would be 2 wounds, and so on.

This is very different from unstable, where you take a wound for each point you lose by (swarms, tomb kings, vampires).

So why would you want to be steadfast if you're winning combat?
If you're steadfast, your opponent isn't. Which means they'd be breaking more often.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
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Lake Forest, California, South Orange County

I think he meant that flanking doesn't disrupt Steadfast even if it negates ranks for CR.

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No saves of any kind vs. Instability. Unless it was FAQed.

It's an interesting idea with daemons. Instability is indeed rough. Stubborn, in all it's forms, and BSB all modify the roll.

You're doing point denial with a horde. It's a BloodStar. You got to face 3 ranks of KB attacks. Against a Monster and Cavalry not so big, but a lot of stuff will get shredded. You can also ensure they are near the BSB, or have a magic Standard.

And it's easier to buff. Have a Herald of TZ, Master of Sorcery, give those guys +2 Toughness and they're going to beat just about any infantry.

Is it worth it for an extra row of attacks? It depends on the frontage you're facing and the wounds you're taking.

   
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How are they getting the +2 toughness? I was tlaking to my friend and he said the only spells Herald of Tz can get are DIrect Damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/05 15:30:33


Current Armies:

Warmachine:
Shae Pirate's Life 50
Durgen attrition 50

WH40K:
Orks (5,000 pt Apoc Kan Wall, 1850 Bikerz)
Grey Knights (1850 Crowe Purifiers, 2500 'Ard Boyz Draigo)
Sisters of Battle (Seraphim spam)

WHFB:
2400 Empire
3000 Tomb Kings 
   
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Master of sorcery-life. = solid. I prefer light for daemons, but life is a close second.

3000
4000 Deamons - Mainly a fantasy army now.
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I sum it up this way. Steadfast Holds. Horde Kills.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
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Made in ca
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




What Vulcan said. I usually run my 50 halberdiers in a horde formation. Horde gets 1/2 of the ranks of a bus, but 3x the attacks. I only go bus unless I absolutely have to.






 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




3x isn't quite accurate. Usually you get 11 attacks with a single-attack steadfast group, and 22 with a singe-attack horde group. (Assuming you're fighting a same-size-base steadfast "bus") I'm guessing you said 3x because you assumed 10/11 vs 30/31, which is only true if the horde is going toe-to-toe with another horde. (And that's frequently not true!)

Assuming you have a character in the unit, even horde-to-horde isn't an accurate "3 times more attacks" estimate. This is especially true with multi-attack models. Models with 2 attacks due to base stats, frenzy, or extra hand weapons, say, led by a 4 attack hero and a champion: Steadfast version puts out 11+5+4=20 attacks. Horde (vs 5 wide) puts out 15+7+7+4=33 attacks. By going horde, you lose a few points of combat res (and possible attacks, if it's a small horde and your enemy went first) and gained 65% more attacks, all of them "unit attacks", not the presumably stronger character's attacks.

With that in mind, my feeling is that if you have at least 35 models, somewhat capable of killing things, that the horde is almost always better. Multiple combat heroes in the unit can make a steadfast "bus" far more attractive, but if the unit is stubborn or unbreakable, go horde even then. Horde formation has a nice secondary benefit in that it (usually) makes it harder for templates to take out gigantic chunks of the unit.
   
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Sacramento, CA

Vulcan wrote:I sum it up this way. Steadfast Holds. Horde Kills.

this sums it up. The hammers and the anvils, right?

It all just depends on the unit, how it fits w/ the army, and the goal/strategy of the player. As a Dwarf player, I pretty much have to run my GW Warriors and Hammerers (although they have Stubborn anyway) in Horde - just too much killing power that easily overrides any compromise for survival. For my DE, no way in heck I'm running my Spearmen in Horde, unless I had like 80+ for some odd reason. But if I had 40+ Witch Elves, I'd run them in Horde.

Plus as Johnny-Cass said, need more sample data to truly see the effectiveness/ineffectiveness or Horde formations before judging it based on 1 example.

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I run horde because there is a 35-point item that makes that horde just as steadfast as a 100-man skavenslave bus.

Manchu wrote:It's a lie, K_K, pure Imperial propaganda. Where's the Talon of Horus, huh? Plus everyone knows the Imperium planned and carried out the invasion of Cadia itself. Bin Abaddon was just a convenient scapegoat.
 
   
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Auburn CA

Malleus wrote:I run horde because there is a 35-point item that makes that horde just as steadfast as a 100-man skavenslave bus.


There is a item for 35 points that makes your stubborn LD10?!?!?!


Also to the guy who is talking about running mournfang in horde the cats dont get supporting attacks so it really is not worth it

 
   
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I run 2 NG units in horde - Front one has spears (50) and the one behind has HW & Shield (48). The rear unit has the general and BSB and there are 2 flanking 30 man archer units in column formation.

I need to ensure my general and BSB do not run off with animosity into the enemy, and the only way I can fit them is to place them one unit behind the other in horde formation.

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On a sombreo, wearing a deckchair.

I know the bearcats don't. but it would just be so much fun. 12 inches deep and death towhatever they hit.

This message was edited -5416 times. Last update was at 18/11/46BC 14:51:61
Lorna wrote:1st Rule of Cooking: If it can be wrapped in Bacon, it should be.
2nd Rule of Cooking: EVERTHING, can be wrapped in Bacon.

Regnak wrote:interesting stuff although I'm disappointed that Squats failed to make the 6th Ed box
 
   
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I try to have one horde unit in each of my armies, even the worst warrior can take down a elite unit with h+T+h, strength in numbers
   
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Amsterdam

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I run 2 NG units in horde - Front one has spears (50) and the one behind has HW & Shield (48). The rear unit has the general and BSB and there are 2 flanking 30 man archer units in column formation.

I need to ensure my general and BSB do not run off with animosity into the enemy, and the only way I can fit them is to place them one unit behind the other in horde formation.


Makes one wonder if that play is waterproof though

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Victoria, B.C. Canada

Deep formation for skeletons who exist to tarpit things, horde formation for grave guard with great weapons who exist to chop things.



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