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Just wondering, I know double strength kills a swarm, and a template deals double wounds, so lets say a pie plate from a defiler covers 3 bases, does it take out 6 bases since it doubles the wounds, or does it just instant gib 3 of them?

Sorry guys, facing chaos tomorrow and the guy is bringing 2 defilers and I know this will be a question.

Edit: see below

DeathReaper wrote:Still on the First Page:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419726.page

Did I miss something? That thread is talking about a dreadnought in CC with scarabs and the outcome on generating extra hits.

I'm talking about the template, like a flamer or ordnance/barrage weapon landing on scarabs.

Again, unless I missed something in that other thread? *shrugs*

The short answer is yes, since the scarabs are swarms and vulnerable to blasts/templates every wound from those weapons is doubled to two wounds. After which the two wounds each cause instant death, therefore for every unsaved wound from a blast or template weapon you will lose 2 bases of swarms.


If i may make a suggestion - use an overlord on a CCB if you have access to it to sweep attack his defilers and wreck them before they cause too much of a nuisance.

tetrisphreak wrote:The short answer is yes, since the scarabs are swarms and vulnerable to blasts/templates every wound from those weapons is doubled to two wounds. After which the two wounds each cause instant death, therefore for every unsaved wound from a blast or template weapon you will lose 2 bases of swarms.


If i may make a suggestion - use an overlord on a CCB if you have access to it to sweep attack his defilers and wreck them before they cause too much of a nuisance.

Thats the plan Anrakyr on a command barge, i have 2x harbingers of destruction that have solar pulses so it should gimp his amazing range.

The scarabs are going to book it for his land raider and see what they can do. Going to circle around the outside of the table moving flat out with the command barge

quick answer:

pie plate covers three-- assume roll three 2+s

swarm means susceptible to template. For each unsaved wound it generates an additional wound.
therefore, the three unsaved Str 8 wounds would each generate one additional Str8 wound.

As scarabs are multi-wound models yada yada yada... yes, ultimately 6 bases would be lost.

There is some ridiculous perception lately that the first three shots+ wounds cause not just the above, but that when..

er.. let's simply take the example to to 1 single str 8 going through.

They're claiming that the one single Str 8 goes through and triggers instant death. In that instant death on the one scarab base not only is the first wound lost and the model removed as a casualty, but that actually the 2 other wounds on the model are being lost as well.

Thus, one Str 8 unsaved wound would actually cause THREE str 8 wounds, each of which generates one additional wound at the same strength thanks to swarm and template vulnerability.

Do the math and ONE Str 8 wound would actually end up killing 4 scarab bases.

Many consider this blatant dickery.

On the other hand, the proponents of this mega-nerf are somewhat defensibly basing this off the rules for calculating victories in assault which, to be fair, do count additional un-saved wounds lost on models to ID effects into the tabulation of combat-wounds at end of combat for determining victory.

The debate is ongoing, harsh, and unforgiving. There is no hope for peace or progress. In the grimdark world of minature wargames discussion there is only rule-lawyering.. ... and oh yeah.. war.

Apologies, I meant to link this one: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/418727.page

dragon....that debate is ludicrus and simply wrong! instant death simply removes the model if it wounds ata strength double toughness. str 8 on a captain save failed....its 1 unsaved wound, but its double toughness so insta kills. vulnerable to blasts does the same thing....just doubles the wound. so a single str 8 blast wound counts as 2 str 8 wounds, etc etc. and since those insta kill the model based on toughness, then it removes bases.

just like a str 4 frag missile....covers 5 models, wounds 4 of them, 4 wounds doubles to 8 = 2 bases removed since str of attack not double toughness.

i dont know how or where that other crazy math comes from.... maybe from CC results but wtf.... those are 2 seperate entrys.

gawd i wish people would pull their head outa their
----edited by emporer----- !!!

Wow, I think there are some order of operations issues here.

The doubling of the wounds is not applied until after the wound is applied to a specific model. Which emans the second wound can only be applied to the same model that took the original wound.


So the three hits from the pie plat turn into 3 wounds. once those wounds are assigned, they are doubled, but it's mostly irrelevant since the attack in this case doubles out the model anyway.

So if my Hammerhead drops a St 6, AP 4 plate on a bnch of scarabs, there are 3 models under the plate and I roll a wound on all of them - that's 3 scarab bases removed, not 6.

Jefffar wrote:Wow, I think there are some order of operations issues here.

The doubling of the wounds is not applied until after the wound is applied to a specific model. Which means the second wound can only be applied to the same model that took the original wound.

So the three hits from the pie plat turn into 3 wounds. once those wounds are assigned, they are doubled, but it's mostly irrelevant since the attack in this case doubles out the model anyway.

So if my Hammerhead drops a St 6, AP 4 plate on a bnch of scarabs, there are 3 models under the plate and I roll a wound on all of them - that's 3 scarab bases removed, not 6.

Incorrect, it is 6 bases removed.

"Vulnerable to blasts/Templates" says it quite clearly. Each unsaved wound is doubled to two wounds.

In the case of Str6 wounds, each wound will cause instant death to a T3 scarab, so you have to remove one base per wound, for a total of 6 bases.

As for the underlined, I am not sure where you got that from, but it was not from the BRB

Jefffar wrote:Wow, I think there are some order of operations issues here.

The doubling of the wounds is not applied until after the wound is applied to a specific model. Which emans the second wound can only be applied to the same model that took the original wound.


So the three hits from the pie plat turn into 3 wounds. once those wounds are assigned, they are doubled, but it's mostly irrelevant since the attack in this case doubles out the model anyway.

So if my Hammerhead drops a St 6, AP 4 plate on a bnch of scarabs, there are 3 models under the plate and I roll a wound on all of them - that's 3 scarab bases removed, not 6.

This is very much incorrect. You double the wounds and then you have to allocate the wounds. Vunerable to Blast/templets does not give you permission to break the wound allocation rules. Each of the wounds will then cause ID.

Page 76, Big Rule Book, section on Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates:

If it is not a vehicle, each unsaved wound is doubled to two wounds.

Key word there is unsaved. It only becomes unsaved after the model fails it's save (or is denied it). So it isn't doubled until it is already assigned to a model, therefore 3 bases, not 6 in the above case.

As scarabs are all equipped the same, you would still have to remove an entire base for each unsaved wound causing instant death. So even if you allocated the wound to a specific model, doubling it would cause two casualties.

Just like you would allocate seven wounds to five identical marines, no matter which one was allocated the wound, you'd have to remove a marine for every failed save.

So the order of operation is:
1. Roll to wound
2. Allocate wounds
3. Take saves
4. Double unsaved wounds
5. Remove an (if possible unwounded) model for each unsaved wound causing instant death as casualty

If you put 2 wounds on a 1 wound model and he fails both saves do you remove his buddy too?

If his buddy has the same gear, yes, that's how it works.

You always roll all saves for identical equipped models at once, and then remove casualties for every unsaved wound.

Jefffar wrote:Page 76, Big Rule Book, section on Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates:

If it is not a vehicle, each unsaved wound is doubled to two wounds.

Key word there is unsaved. It only becomes unsaved after the model fails it's save (or is denied it). So it isn't doubled until it is already assigned to a model, therefore 3 bases, not 6 in the above case.

Wrong, as you're missing the Remove Casualties step.

Each unsaved wound is doubled, so you have 6 unsaved wounds

When resolving Remove Casualties you remove 1 complete base per ID wound. Thus 6 bases are removed.