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I'd like to hear some tactics on the uses of battlwagons, I have my own opinions but I would like to hear more from the ork community on their thoughts please.

Well, given the sheer vitriol regarding the issue, my impression is that the most over-powered and broken tactic is to use an older model battlewagon that has a smaller model, and hide it behind the newer, larger battlewagon.

azazel the cat wrote:Well, given the sheer vitriol regarding the issue, my impression is that the most over-powered and broken tactic is to use an older model battlewagon that has a smaller model, and hide it behind the newer, larger battlewagon.

Well I mean, how are they best implemented and with what wargear? Any known weaknesses? work arounds? ways to surprise the enemy opinions on the kill kannon ect ect ect.

The best way to use a battlewagon is to add a deff rolla to it, load it up with killy orks and smash it into the enemy lines.
Armor Plates and a big shoota are mandatory, grot riggers a good idea to get that deff rolla back online later in the game.
I'm still undecided about red paint or not, I'm always glad when I do take it, but I also don't miss it when I don't.

The dakka wagon (4 big shootas + kannon/lobba) is neither overly expensive, nor a bad unit. It just doesn't add anything to the army. When I field them, it fields like bringing a toolbox with 15 identical screw drivers.

A rokkit wagon (4 rokkits + kannon) would be totally awesome if it were AV14 all around or the rokkits were all 36". But as it is, it has to drive to the middle of the board, where it will take a lascannon, multimelta or autocannon to the knee and die.

'ard case, killkannon and zzap gunz are hardly worth the paper they are printed on.

azazel the cat wrote:Well, given the sheer vitriol regarding the issue, my impression is that the most over-powered and broken tactic is to use an older model battlewagon that has a smaller model, and hide it behind the newer, larger battlewagon.

The older bw model (=the forge world thing) is actually taller than the new one. In addition, it's now called battle fortress and a super-heavy ork choice, so no using that. Even most scratchbuilds are larger than the new battlewagon, for example the commonly seen landraider conversion. In any case using a model greatly off scale and exploting it to your advantage will not result in a happy opponent, and your model might get kicked out by the TO. So let's simply assume were are not modeling for advantage and derail this thread into "orks have a free pass to modeling for adavantage" again.

Jidmah wrote:The best way to use a battlewagon is to add a deff rolla to it, load it up with killy orks and smash it into the enemy lines.
Armor Plates and a big shoota are mandatory, grot riggers a good idea to get that deff rolla back online later in the game.
I'm still undecided about red paint or not, I'm always glad when I do take it, but I also don't miss it when I don't.

The dakka wagon (4 big shootas + kannon/lobba) is neither overly expensive, nor a bad unit. It just doesn't add anything to the army. When I field them, it fields like bringing a toolbox with 15 identical screw drivers.

A rokkit wagon (4 rokkits + kannon) would be totally awesome if it were AV14 all around or the rokkits were all 36". But as it is, it has to drive to the middle of the board, where it will take a lascannon, multimelta or autocannon to the knee and die.

'ard case, killkannon and zzap gunz are hardly worth the paper they are printed on.

azazel the cat wrote:Well, given the sheer vitriol regarding the issue, my impression is that the most over-powered and broken tactic is to use an older model battlewagon that has a smaller model, and hide it behind the newer, larger battlewagon.

The older bw model (=the forge world thing) is actually taller than the new one. In addition, it's now called battle fortress and a super-heavy ork choice, so no using that. Even most scratchbuilds are larger than the new battlewagon, for example the commonly seen landraider conversion. In any case using a model greatly off scale and exploting it to your advantage will not result in a happy opponent, and your model might get kicked out by the TO. So let's simply assume were are not modeling for advantage and derail this thread into "orks have a free pass to modeling for adavantage" again.

I see alot of people swear by the boarding planks, which to me... makes sense... sorta? but then again I am use to just jumping out and doing the dirty work anyway... ideas?

So the wagon I would normally run is ....1750 Pts - Codex: Orks Roster

Heavy Support: Battlewagon (1#, 145 pts)
1 Battlewagon, 145 pts (Armour Plates; Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Red Paint Job; Lobba)

with a customer forcefield maybe throw in a big shoota or grot riggers depending on information of the enemy but normally no i don't take these

Give it a deff rolla, and possibly a KFF mek inside.....And you're golden!

Right, forgot about planks and grabbin' klaws.

I use them whenever I have the points to spare, as they are especially useful they are very against skimmer armies when used in combination. However, if I don't have the points, they are the first to go. Both upgrades suffer from the fact that they only work against vehicles. If your opponent has no or very few vehicles (tyranids, footdar, DOA, green tide, BT horde, etc) you have just tossed 10 points per bw out the window. even against armies with only a couple vehicles, like kan walls, deff rollas are more than enough to handle them.

If you are using only a single weapon, I would suggest a kannon rather than the lobba. That way you have the option to toss 36" rokkit across the board if you need to, wile only losing one point of strenght.

Jidmah wrote:
The older bw model (=the forge world thing) is actually taller than the new one. In addition, it's now called battle fortress and a super-heavy ork choice, so no using that. Even most scratchbuilds are larger than the new battlewagon, for example the commonly seen landraider conversion. In any case using a model greatly off scale and exploting it to your advantage will not result in a happy opponent, and your model might get kicked out by the TO. So let's simply assume were are not modeling for advantage and derail this thread into "orks have a free pass to modeling for adavantage" again.

Actually..there is a REALLY old FW BW that is pretty small, open topped, and about the size of the new trukks (onyl a lot shorter). You can definately hide that one beind the BW kit. I know, I have a friend that has 4 of them that I am still trying to buy off him

Deffrolla, big shoota, boarding plank, armour plates and grot riggers is the best way to run a Battlewagon. No point putitng more than one gun on it as it can only fire one on the move. All the upgrades keep the tank moving if it gets stuck.

I formally had 4 Old Forge world or Armorcast "battlewagons." I would not try to use them in any game to represent that. They are the size of current 40K scale trukks, just shorter. Your other option would be to use them as Looted wagons with a weapon option. At a Tournment scene, unless your entire Ork army is old school, you will likely get called out on them for scale.

Mine were sold when the new book came out. I realized the limited span of getting decent money for them, based on the leaks of the Battlewagon. I do not model for advantage, its not my way. You could basically hide the those old 2nd edition armor cast / early Forgeworld Wagons behind the current Killa Kan models and never get a line of sight to them.

A better argument could be made for hiding the old Trukks behind ANY Battlewagon, scratch built or otherwise. I have Five of them and they are tiny and 100% GW models. I'd laugh in the face of anyone who dare complain about me using them.

Although to be fair only 1 Meganob model fits in the back whereas somehow it can carry 6?!?!?

Also that small size can be a huge detrement when it wrecks and you have to put the models into the crater AND stay 1" away from the opponent.

Anywho, for OP run wagons in a group of at least 3, with riggers, rollers, RPJ, r-more, really Big Shoota. That was tough using the R the whole time. Also make sure there are other threats to take some of the heat off the wagons.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: how are they best implemented

Their most common use is to deliver a squad of ork boys or nobs into the face of the enemy. They are so effective at this role, they literally shove them up the nose of some armies.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:and with what wargear?

Red paint, one big shoota, and deffrolla's are the standard.

While you could build mobile gun platforms full of lootas, the fact is they don't carry enough firepower to complete with IG or GK. Your BWs should be designed to get your boys to where they need to be -- in assault.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: Any known weaknesses?

AV 10 on the back is pretty bad. If your facing a clever eldar opponent, they can skim around the sides to take rear shots at you. BW's are also vulnerable to deep striking melta weapons.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:work arounds?

Kustom Force Field Big Meks! The ability to give you wagons a 4+ save from all damaging effects is great. This means that MM has a ~21.80% of destroying your wagon when it lands. Those are not good odds for your opponent.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:ways to surprise the enemy opinions on the kill kannon ect ect ect.

Some people will put 15 burna's into a wagon. As you use one template and multiply the number of models touched by the template times 15, its not uncommon to have 90 hits on one unit -- which will kill just about any unit in the game. The only drawback is that the wagon can only move 6" and do this trick -- but when it works, oh my!

Other people put Ghaz and mega-nobs in a wagon. This can make an exceptional hammer unit. Mega-nobs are a mixed bag of beans. If you were to buy a PK for a nob, it would be more expensive than a mega-nob, so you save points by giving him a 2+ save, but the drawback is they have no invlun save and are slow and purposeful. Note, they do get a TL shoota which is a nice bonus, but hardly a game-breaker.

Ghaz is good because on the assault he can eat just about anything in the game. To add insult to the PK injury he just deliever, he makes the Ork Waaaaaaagh last 2 turns and guarantee 6"s on the rolls. This gives the mega-nobs a heck of a threat range when coming out of the wagon. Suddenly that SnP unit is not so slow after all, and has enough purposeful to wreck face.

Planks are near mandatory for any wagon I want advancing, because they allow me to snipe out enemy walkers (that aren't such a good idea to deff-rolla, unless you want to lose your wagon) with powerklaw attacks out the back. They're also good for the times you manage to immobilize, but not destroy, whatever you rammed into.

I've also had some success using battlewagons as loota bunkers. AV14 defeats most ranged firepower, and if you're not advancing, your opponent's meltas probably aren't in range. Your lootas can blast away, and it usually isn't what your opponent expected - which is usually a good way to get a lead in a game.

If they deploy first, they're going to assume that your lootas will be on foot, and that your boyz will be in the wagons, heading for them. And, they're likely to deploy to defend against this. Instead, you reseve your boyz and deploy the lootas in the wagons, and pick off vulnerable targets for a turn or two. When the boyz come in, you can decide to hop out the lootas and move the boyz, or keep them in the bunkers based on how the game has progressed.

Jidmah wrote:The best way to use a battlewagon is to add a deff rolla to it, load it up with killy orks and smash it into the enemy lines.
Armor Plates and a big shoota are mandatory, grot riggers a good idea to get that deff rolla back online later in the game.
I'm still undecided about red paint or not, I'm always glad when I do take it, but I also don't miss it when I don't.

So, YEE-HAW! VROOM! * KABOOM!!! into the other guy instead of turning it into a rolling pile of guns? Sometimes I load it to the gunnels with shoota boyz to unleash a lot of dakka.

My assault wagon loadout is as follows:

Red Paint Job
Big Shoota (only there for weapon destroyed insurance)
Grot riggers
Armor Plates
DEFFROLLA
Boarding Plank
Wreckin' Ball

This coupled with Ghaz, you essentially have a possible 27" assault in the 2nd turn. Wreckin' Balls are used to soften up the unit prior to the Boyz going to work.

Redbeard wrote:If they deploy first, they're going to assume that your lootas will be on foot, and that your boyz will be in the wagons, heading for them. And, they're likely to deploy to defend against this. Instead, you reseve your boyz and deploy the lootas in the wagons, and pick off vulnerable targets for a turn or two. When the boyz come in, you can decide to hop out the lootas and move the boyz, or keep them in the bunkers based on how the game has progressed.

What else would you be fielding to occupy the opposing player's forces? Maybe 2 more BWs in the other HS slots, and a 4th loaded with Nobz? A mini Kan Wall with 8 walkers and a bunch of Boyz? This could work. However, I would be reluctant to use it because 1) any Stunned or Shaken hit on the BW would negate the Lootas shooting for a turn, and 2) you now have committed a minimum of 315 points to this tactic and taken up a precious HS slot for a static unit. That is 90 points (15 more Boyz!) that could be advancing on the enemy. Does it increase the survivability and/or effectiveness of the Lootas all that much?

It really depends on the opponent, what they're bringing, what the mission goals are, and so on.

If my opponent has dominating firepower at the 24-48" range, but much of that is unable to hurt my battlewagon's front, then I have to consider the following;

1) if I advance, I give up side shots.

2) if my lootas convince him to unbunker and advance himself, my boyz have less distance to cover.

3) if it's a killpoint game, and I can take a few quick kill points this way, I force my opponent into a reactive stance. He then HAS to attack my position, and I've got a horde of boyz in reserve.

4) if it's take and hold, and I can gun down his scoring units near his objective, I don't have to go anywhere.

Remember, the point is to win the game, and to play the objectives. Rushing your opponent's line is not always the way to do that. If you find that you have an advantage at a given range (such as, I can shoot you at 48" and you can't meaningfully shoot me back), there is no reason to give up that advantage, you force your opponent to react to you instead.

The 'easy' battlewagon tactic is load up and charge. roll over stuff, get into assault, maybe use burnas. This can probably be repeated game after game and work sometimes and lose sometimes. But real tactics involve analyzing each game separately, and recognizing what tools you have to meet whatever the objectives are. If your best chance of winning is staying back and gunning down what you can for a few turns, why wouldn't you do it?

Great idea, Redbeard. I could see that working very nicely against some of the classic tourney builds that come with three dakka predators as their default anti-infantry firepower. Six heavy bolters and three autocannons can rapidly take out looters, even in cover, but won't even scratch battlewagon front armour.

Redbeard wrote:
The 'Orky' battlewagon tactic is load up and charge....

Fixed.

Well, you might be an ork, I'm a human playing a game.

@ Redbeard: I can take all 3 of my BWs in the HS slots, Boyz for all of them, Lootas on the side, and, depending on what my opponent does, I have the choice of putting those Deffgunz in a Wagon instead. This is really cool. I actually like to run at least 30 Lootas if I do so at all, so I think I'll try out two or three BW Bunkers tonight and let y'all know how it goes for me.

So I would be curious to see an effective 1750 list involving 2 battlewagons that could be more or less an all comers list. I would really appericate it as I am considering buying my 2nd wagon and just haven't found too much use for the 1st other than rush and hope no one gets that rear armor.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:So I would be curious to see an effective 1750 list involving 2 battlewagons that could be more or less an all comers list. I would really appericate it as I am considering buying my 2nd wagon and just haven't found too much use for the 1st other than rush and hope no one gets that rear armor.

Yeah, one BW in any list is just a Lascannon magnet. I did all right with 2, but now that I got my third for Christmas, I have been able to really move my Boyz across the table.

HQ: 2
Warboss, PK, Kombi Schorcha, Warbike, Attack Squig, Cybork 155
Big Mek, KFF, Cybork 95

Elites: 1
7 Kommandoz, 2 Burna Boyz, Snikrot 205

Troops: 4
Nobz, Cybork Body, Stikkbombz, 'Eavy Armour 299
Painboy, Grot Orderly
Nob 2, PK, Slugga, Waaagh! Banner
Nob 3, PK, Slugga, BP
Nob 4, Big Choppa, Slugga
Nob 5, Choppa, Slugga, Ammo Runt
Nob 6, Choppa, Slugga
Trukk, BS, Armour Plates, Red Paint, Boarding Plank, Grot Riggers, Ram 65

2X 18 Slugga Boyz, Nob, BP, EA, BS, PK 328
11 Slugga Boyz, Nob, BP, EA, BS, PK 122
Trukk, BS, Armour Plates, Red Paint, Boarding Plank, Grot Riggers, Ram 65

FA: 2
2 Deffkopta, TL Rokkits, Buzzsaw 140

HS: 2
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Red Paint, Armour Plates, Boarding Plank, Big Shoota 135
Battlewagon, Deff Rolla, Red Paint, Armour Plates, Grot Riggers, Boarding Plank, Big Shoota 140

Reserve the Bike Boss with Snikrot and hide the Nob Trukk behind the BWs or out of LOS. Rush forward and crush things. Fun times all around!

EDIT: Had the number 3 next to HS instead of 2.

Redbeard, I really don't see the loota bunker working in theroy, and it has never worked for myself in practice.

Even if deployed in a corner and with careful placement, something will be able to shoot into the side by turn 2. Even if not, all it takes is a single glance from a lascannon, rocket or anything else S8+ to shut all those lootaz down. Simply deploying the lootaz into a ruin or other well should get just as many shots out of them, without needing a battlewagon and give your opponent the option of shake&ignore.

Of course, if your opponent doesn't realize this, it might work. But that's like squads of 5 koptaz - they are awesome until your opponent realizes he can simply tank shock them away. I'd rather not depend on my opponent being a bad player.

Jidmah wrote:
Even if deployed in a corner and with careful placement, something will be able to shoot into the side by turn 2. Even if not, all it takes is a single glance from a lascannon, rocket or anything else S8+ to shut all those lootaz down. Simply deploying the lootaz into a ruin or other well should get just as many shots out of them, without needing a battlewagon and give your opponent the option of shake&ignore.

Of course, if your opponent doesn't realize this, it might work. But that's like squads of 5 koptaz - they are awesome until your opponent realizes he can simply tank shock them away. I'd rather not depend on my opponent being a bad player.

Okay, case in point. Last year, I found myself playing against another ork army, footslogging with loads of lootas for anti-tank. My lootas sat untouchable in the bunker, and forced his hand. He had to advance, and my guys got the charges, which in the ork vs ork matchup is all important.

Another example - at the Adepticon championships in 2009, I took 4 battlewagons. Three were drive forward wagons, and one was a loota bunker with a boomgun (or whatever the S7 big blast thing is called). This allowed my lootas to stay protected from stuff like autocannons and multilasers that otherwise would have had no targets except the lootas. And with the other wagons advancing, that one never drew any fire. It also allowed the lootas to roll on with everyone else in the dawn of war missions.

It's an option, not a requirement. I presented it to get people thinking outside of the box. Too often, players pigeonhole themselves into one approach. Or they design a list with one tactic in mind, and insist on playing through that tactic even when it's not appropriate.

Interesting idea, had not considered that.
AV14 is always tough to pop and lootas are vulnerable anyways due to LD tests/armor. Must give it a swing sometime.

Hum, I see what you are saying. I might just try that (except for the killkannon, no way to salvage that thing ).

Just yesterday, I had a game against mech eldar which resulted in pretty much what you described. I was able to hide 4 battlewagons out of sight first turn and have all AV14 facing towards them without the possibility of sideshots turn 2, due to spearhead deployment and a big LoS blocking building near the center. This pretty much left my two units of lootas the only viable targets for all those scatter lasers and missle launchers, resulting in them wiped of the table by my turn 3. In the end, it didn't really matter (a single kopta took down six war walkers and a serpent, what the?!), but it would have been nice to have kept their shooting.

It also allowed the lootas to roll on with everyone else in the dawn of war missions.

Its not a dedicated transport though. Can they start off the board in the BW?

I like the battleweagonbunker format.

My 1750 points list:

Warboss with warbike, Powerclaw etc.
mek with kff and bosspole

5 bikernobs with the basic stuff (waaagh banner, powerclaw, painboy etc.

3x10 gretchins

3x 15 loota's
3x battleweagons with deffrolla and two big shoota's

Loota's go in the battleweagons and mek joins the middle one for complete kff cover.

gretchins go for the objectives or form a shield in front of the battleweagon, depends on the mission.

Warboss with Nobs go hunting.

its not perfect but i like it!

Ratius wrote:

It also allowed the lootas to roll on with everyone else in the dawn of war missions.

Its not a dedicated transport though. Can they start off the board in the BW?

Yes, anyone can start off-board in a non-dedicated transport. Only dedicated transports are restricted to the squad they're bought for.