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I'm having a friendly disagreement with my pal in Texas. We are both lazy painters but we both try to go beyond "table top quality." As a general rule, we both glue our doors shut on tanks etc. and I have non-articulating arms on all my dreds and killa kans. Drop pods are definately in his and possibly my future. We wouldn't care playing each other, and I doubt friendly games and even "friendly" TOs would be against it but....

But the question is: With a dred or troop drop pod, would it be acceptable or not acceptable to glue the deployment doors shut with respect to WYSISYG. I think that the optional weapon systems are mounted inside, by the way.

Your funny responses would be greatly appreciated!

doktor_g vs NightHowler

if you tried to pull the "you cant see through/blocks line of sight.... I'll pull the "if you cant blow the doors to get out you are stuck inside...
unless you deploy it empty...

As long as you don't try to claim that your models (including the DP gun inside) can see through it, but my guys cannot, I'll be fine. At a tourney, ask the TO what their ruling on DP's in relation to their doors is.

Depends on the type of tournament.

If its a GT where painting is required, then no, your doors cannot be glued shut.

At local tournaments, sure, whatever.

I'd allow it, but eithe both the gun inside and everything else can see through it or nothing can. I'd be more inclined to go with the first one though.

There is no requirement in the rules to open the doors on any transport vehicle in order for the unit inside to disembark.

Putting your pod on the table with the doors open is perfectly acceptable within the rules.
Putting your pod on the table with the doors closed is equally acceptable within the rules.

Neither will have any effect on how the unit inside disembarks.
It will have an effect on how the pod blocks LOS, since you can't see through the middle if the doors are closed... Actual LOS through there is pretty minimal, so this really isn't a big issue, although some tournaments have apparently ruled that you should pretend the doors are open for LOS, for some inexplicable reason.

It will likewise affect shooting from the weapon inside the pod, since it will be unable to draw LOS to anything if the doors are closed.

Easiest thing to do is just magnetize the doors or leave them off permanently. Solves all the problems.

Pardon me for the partial thread-jack, and lack of knowledge on the topic, but:

Is this controversy over the drop pod in general, or over how it is modeled?

It shouldnt matter how the owner modeled the sucker (me personally would glue the doors shut just for simplicity), so why would it be different if they chose to have them open?

Or are people just arguing over whether all drop pods (no matter how it is modeled) allow a LOS?

We are "discussing" not arguing. tee hee.

Anyway, yes the controversy is how it is modeled. Most (if not all) tank models have the option of moving parts. In general, these parts can be immobilized because of glue, paint, varnish etc. Drop pods are a little different, because the doors form the bulk of the model, and can allow TLoS through the model to another on the other side, that may not be possible with the doors closed. Additionally, some weapon systems are mounted inside the model and only come into play after the model deep struck in. Thus presenting another problem... ie is that the DP with the Missle Launcher or the one with the Heavy Bolter or whatever.

Thanks for your interest (and no fair siding with Texas just because you are in DFW). You might end up playing him too!

Dr G

doktor_g wrote:Thus presenting another problem... ie is that the DP with the Missle Launcher or the one with the Heavy Bolter or whatever.

It doesn't matter if you can't tell which weapon the pod has if it can't shoot with it anyway...

Lol. Very true.

If my opponent wants to spend 35 points on a weapon that won't be able to shoot, I won't complain. BTW, I don't know the actual cost of a rocket launcher, 35 pts just sounded good.

insaniak wrote:

doktor_g wrote:Thus presenting another problem... ie is that the DP with the Missle Launcher or the one with the Heavy Bolter or whatever.

It doesn't matter if you can't tell which weapon the pod has if it can't shoot with it anyway...

Ok, let's take this a step further then. According to the rules as written, I would claim that I can disembark from any side of the drop pod whether or not the doors are open, hide my troops behind the drop pod, then only open the doors facing the enemy so that I could then block line of sight to my disembarked troops while still firing on my opponent with the missile launcher.

Please understand I am playing devils advocate, and that this manouver would depend on my opponent not destroying the drop pod since the missile wouldn't be able to fire on the turn it landed anyway.

NightHowler wrote:... then only open the doors facing the enemy so that I could then block line of sight to my disembarked troops while still firing on my opponent with the missile launcher.

There are no rules that would allow you to alter the model once it has been deployed, other than the rule allowing vehicles to turn weapons or turrets to point at their targets.

So no, you can't open the doors later. It's deployed with the doors either open or closed, and that's how they will stay.

As long as you don't lower the doors on a later turn, or try to draw LOS with your units, go ahead. There are no rules saying you must open all the doors, let alone any, however, the doors do block LOS so if they are up...

Wow. I actually like that idea. NEW POLL!!!! Your turn space puppy.

DrG

insaniak wrote:

NightHowler wrote:... then only open the doors facing the enemy so that I could then block line of sight to my disembarked troops while still firing on my opponent with the missile launcher.

There are no rules that would allow you to alter the model once it has been deployed, other than the rule allowing vehicles to turn weapons or turrets to point at their targets.

So no, you can't open the doors later. It's deployed with the doors either open or closed, and that's how they will stay.

There's nothing in the rules that say I have to open all the doors.
Edited to add that what I'm trying to say is that I would only open one or two doors when I land.

NightHowler wrote:

insaniak wrote:

NightHowler wrote:... then only open the doors facing the enemy so that I could then block line of sight to my disembarked troops while still firing on my opponent with the missile launcher.

There are no rules that would allow you to alter the model once it has been deployed, other than the rule allowing vehicles to turn weapons or turrets to point at their targets.

So no, you can't open the doors later. It's deployed with the doors either open or closed, and that's how they will stay.

There's nothing in the rules that say I have to open all the doors.

Actually, there's nothing in the rules allowing you to open doors in the first place. Have fun with that.

NightHowler wrote:

insaniak wrote:

NightHowler wrote:... then only open the doors facing the enemy so that I could then block line of sight to my disembarked troops while still firing on my opponent with the missile launcher.

There are no rules that would allow you to alter the model once it has been deployed, other than the rule allowing vehicles to turn weapons or turrets to point at their targets.

So no, you can't open the doors later. It's deployed with the doors either open or closed, and that's how they will stay.

There's nothing in the rules that say I have to open all the doors.

Doesn't matter. Any competent tournament judge would say your being a dick and force you to play all open or all closed.

Insaniak, I don't think he's trying to claim its legal to reposition doors on a later turn. What he's saying is deploy behind the DP, leave those doors shut, and open the doors facing his opponent so the gun can draw LOS.

No, there's not. But your post was talking about disembarking behind the pod and then opening some of the doors... which the rules don't allow.

I would claim that I can disembark from any side of the drop pod whether or not the doors are open, hide my troops behind the drop pod, then only open the doors facing the enemy so that I could then block line of sight to my disembarked troops while still firing on my opponent with the missile launcher.

You can deploy the pod with as many or as few doors open as you want, just as you can deploy your Land Raider with any of its doors open or closed.

But there are no rules that allow you to change the model mid-game.

Ordinarily, that won't make a difference. A Land Raider has the exact same LOS profile whether the assault ramp is up or down.

But start trying to manipulate your models for a LOS advantage as you suggested, and you are likely to find yourself lacking people to play against.


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rigeld2 wrote:Actually, there's nothing in the rules allowing you to open doors in the first place. Have fun with that.

The only requirement in the rules is for you to be using Citadel models. So as long as the model you're using is the correct model, and assembled correctly, it's gravy.

Since the Drop Pod assembly allows you to build it with doors open or closed, either is fine. Otherwise, you're going to have to define every single model in the game and decide just how each one should be assembled in order to be legal... and that's not going to end well.

Horst wrote:

NightHowler wrote:

insaniak wrote:

NightHowler wrote:... then only open the doors facing the enemy so that I could then block line of sight to my disembarked troops while still firing on my opponent with the missile launcher.

There are no rules that would allow you to alter the model once it has been deployed, other than the rule allowing vehicles to turn weapons or turrets to point at their targets.

So no, you can't open the doors later. It's deployed with the doors either open or closed, and that's how they will stay.

There's nothing in the rules that say I have to open all the doors.

Doesn't matter. Any competent tournament judge would say your being a dick and force you to play all open or all closed.

I'm only trying to present an example to try and illustrate a point. I'm actually a very friendly player is usually agreeable to play the game almost any way my opponent prefers.

Having said that let me create a scenario where the judge would have a harder time "calling me a dick."

My drop pod lands next to a ruin. My troops deploy into the ruin but the drop pod is too close to it for the doors on that side to open. The doors on the opposite side open just fine revealing my missile launcher. There are enemy troops on that side who can not draw line of sight to my disembarked troops because the drop pod doors on that side don't open. With the rules of disembarkation and TLoS as written, my opponent could not shoot my troops but my missile launcher could target my opponent.

NH
Can you just drop in, and deploy the marines within 2" of any door, open or closed? If so, I think opening the doors facing your enemy and exiting from the rear (closed door) is a pretty novel tactic, but still "dick-ish."
DrG

IIRC, doesnt the drop pod entry say the "doors are blown" in some fashion? So in game terms the doors are 'open' but does the vehicle being open topped allow it to be shot through? I didnt think it did, and I dont remember the rules saying you can shoot through vehicles.

Texanity wrote:IIRC, doesnt the drop pod entry say the "doors are blown" in some fashion? So in game terms the doors are 'open' but does the vehicle being open topped allow it to be shot through? I didnt think it did, and I dont remember the rules saying you can shoot through vehicles.

"doors are blown" means nothing in game terms. And it being open-topped means nothing to shooting through it - TLOS is king here

Texanity wrote:IIRC, doesnt the drop pod entry say the "doors are blown" in some fashion? So in game terms the doors are 'open' but does the vehicle being open topped allow it to be shot through? I didnt think it did, and I dont remember the rules saying you can shoot through vehicles.

The doors are only open if you open them.

The Fluff about "The doors are blown" is a line of fluff and has no bearing on the actual rules.

The rules do not say that you can shoot through vehicles, since they use TLoS.

Open topped follow the same TLoS rules as everyone else.

NightHowler wrote: There are enemy troops on that side who can not draw line of sight to my disembarked troops because the drop pod doors on that side don't open.

If you're disembarking directly into the ruin (which would incidentally trigger dangerous terrain tests for those models) then chances are that with both the pod and the ruin obscuring LOS, he wouldn't be able to see them even if the doors were open...

With the rules of disembarkation and TLoS as written, my opponent could not shoot my troops but my missile launcher could target my opponent.

Yes. Just as you can deploy a unit on the far side of a land raider so that an enemy unit can't shoot them, while the land raider can still shoot the enemy unit. Not seeing a problem here.

doktor_g wrote:Can you just drop in, and deploy the marines within 2" of any door, open or closed?

Again, there is no requirement in the disembarking rules for doors on vehicles to be physically open for models to disembark from them. Just as there is no requirement for your models' legs to move when they 'run'.



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Texanity wrote:IIRC, doesnt the drop pod entry say the "doors are blown" in some fashion? So in game terms the doors are 'open'...

How does 'the doors are blown' equate to 'the doors are open' in game terms?

For that to be true, you would need an actual definition within the rules. As it stands, it's a bit of fluff explaining how the models get out, and why the pod is considered open-topped.

...but does the vehicle being open topped allow it to be shot through?

The pod blocks LOS as per its physical profile, just like any other model.

insaniak wrote:

doktor_g wrote:Can you just drop in, and deploy the marines within 2" of any door, open or closed?

Again, there is no requirement in the disembarking rules for doors on vehicles to be physically open for models to disembark from them. Just as there is no requirement for your models' legs to move when they 'run'.

Now THAT is funny.

So what's your ruling?
A DP hits out in the open. Can some doors open and not others? Thus allowing TLoS with a missle launcher while denying TLoS to disembarked marines on the opposite side.
Hmmmm?

insaniak wrote:

NightHowler wrote: There are enemy troops on that side who can not draw line of sight to my disembarked troops because the drop pod doors on that side don't open.

If you're disembarking directly into the ruin (which would incidentally trigger dangerous terrain tests for those models) then chances are that with both the pod and the ruin obscuring LOS, he wouldn't be able to see them even if the doors were open...

No argument about the dangerous terain tests. Again, like I said, I'm not presenting a strategy I use; I'm only trying to illustrate a point: namely that there are no rules that say that you have to open the doors (so glued shut should never be an issue), there aren't even any rules that say its all or nothing (so I could open some doors and not others whether this is due to terrain or just due to my being a dick), so you could in theory only open the doors so that your pod's weapons can shoot and leave the other doors closed to block TLoS.

NuggetHowler:

Codex Space Wolves pg 73. 2nd paragraph. 3rd Sentence. Clearly states: "NightHowler is a rules lawyer."

I think that's a brilliant tactical thought personally. D!ck or no. This is TLoS. And nothing apparently says you can't deploy partially open or closed, so do it.

But I'd only use it on a superior player like the "Tau counts as Eldar guy" (inside joke). Or in our Vegas baby 'ard boy stravaganza.