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I'm going to say yes. I have found that stories and the various Dawn of War games that end on a happy, hopeful note and not a "LOL POINTLESS ALL GUNNA DIE ANYWAY" note to be far more entertaining and fun to read. Pointless Grimdark lore and history is not fun, nor is it interesting. Sure the Grimdark setting is what made Warhammer 40k so successful, but I feel like Games Workshop has taken it to far on occasions and should be throwing various factions more of a bone. It feels cheap as a major Imperial Guard player to win a victory, then have my opponent tell me "Well, in the longer run the Imperium is utterly doomed to lol I still win".

I would not even mind if GW killed off the Emperor, but found a way to keep the Imperium going, as long is it was toward a better future, the Universe should be far more evenly balanced rather than having one side were you have 3 of you major selling armies on, to be pointless. While it is fun to show how to many stories are all "Happy fun always good guy wins" and then turn around and say well "I play in a cooler darker universe rawr".

There is a place were you can meet in the middle of these things. I recently finished Imperial Glory, the ending was not to Grimdark for me, sure it was dark, but it also had a nice sad side as well. It's boring to have a story with only one single over arching theme. Sure you can talk about how powerful the Tyranids are, but if you write that they will probably wipe out the entire Milkyway Galaxy it makes the reader if they don't play Tyranids feel bad, and that every time they fight Tyranids it's pointless.

We need Balance.

I always thought gimdark was more silly then gim or dark. Too much grimdark just jumps the shark into sillyness.

Yes, there is. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE MATT "THE MAN" WARD FIXING ALL THAT GRIMDAWKNESS FOR US ONE SM CODEX AT A TIME!

BlaxicanX wrote:Yes, there is. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE MATT "THE MAN" WARD FIXING ALL THAT GRIMDAWKNESS FOR US ONE SM CODEX AT A TIME!

I know how Matt Ward is hated around these parts for what ever reason, but I like him. He actually makes me feel worth something as an Imperial player, rather than an endless parade of losses and Pyrrhic victory's.

nomotog wrote:I always thought gimdark was more silly then gim or dark. Too much grimdark just jumps the shark into sillyness.

That's actually part of the point. Grimdark is, in part, some high-quality dark British humor. I mean...



And grimdark goes both ways. Anyone who says that they win in the end because the imperium is doomed is clearly overlooking that whatever faction they happen to be playing is also doomed.

I say, the more grimdark, the better. The only thing better is ironic grimdark...

I think it's meant to be silly most times. Ironic back humor and things. (IG and tau are actually joke armies) Then there are people who want to play it straight. As actual drama. Those people kind of bug me.

Alexzandvar wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Yes, there is. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE MATT "THE MAN" WARD FIXING ALL THAT GRIMDAWKNESS FOR US ONE SM CODEX AT A TIME!

I know how Matt Ward is hated around these parts for what ever reason, but I like him. He actually makes me feel worth something as an Imperial player, rather than an endless parade of losses and Pyrrhic victory's.

The whole point is that the Imperium is having it's big, badass last stand over several thousand years. At least, that's what the original point was. Now it's that the Imperium is baws and the other races just get defeated by Sphess Mehrens repeatedly. Like the Tyranids that you've complained about. All their fluff is "A billion Tyranids come in and are defeated by heroic Guards/Marines but don't worry more will come in to get defeated again." Same with the Black Crusades. And the Ork Waaghs! don't even get half that far. The Tau succeed, but it's made clear that the Imperium is 10,000 times their size so their victories are pointless.

"...in the grim, dark future, there is only awesome..."

I appreciate the nihilism of it all, but I don't think it was originally meant to be taken seriously. I think in general the writing is far too poor to honestly read all the grimdark without a hint of irony.

This is why there are Angry Marines.

Alexzandvar wrote:I'm going to say yes. I have found that stories and the various Dawn of War games that end on a happy, hopeful note and not a "LOL POINTLESS ALL GUNNA DIE ANYWAY" note to be far more entertaining and fun to read. Pointless Grimdark lore and history is not fun, nor is it interesting. Sure the Grimdark setting is what made Warhammer 40k so successful, but I feel like Games Workshop has taken it to far on occasions and should be throwing various factions more of a bone. It feels cheap as a major Imperial Guard player to win a victory, then have my opponent tell me "Well, in the longer run the Imperium is utterly doomed to lol I still win".

I would not even mind if GW killed off the Emperor, but found a way to keep the Imperium going, as long is it was toward a better future, the Universe should be far more evenly balanced rather than having one side were you have 3 of you major selling armies on, to be pointless. While it is fun to show how to many stories are all "Happy fun always good guy wins" and then turn around and say well "I play in a cooler darker universe rawr".

There is a place were you can meet in the middle of these things. I recently finished Imperial Glory, the ending was not to Grimdark for me, sure it was dark, but it also had a nice sad side as well. It's boring to have a story with only one single over arching theme. Sure you can talk about how powerful the Tyranids are, but if you write that they will probably wipe out the entire Milkyway Galaxy it makes the reader if they don't play Tyranids feel bad, and that every time they fight Tyranids it's pointless.

We need Balance.

Heresy! *BLAM*

I think Grimdark is best described as "Nietzsche read in the style of Red Dwarf."

It's a universe of continent sized battleships powered by engines the size of cities served by armies of men and women who live and die alongside their machines. Of police forces that resemble the authoritarian nature of Judge Dredd but cranked up to 11. Of swarms of insects that devour planets, and millennia old old robots who seek to wipe out everything that draws breath (or at least they did, not sure what they do now) while giant green fungi blast people with guns that only work because they believe they do. It's every science fiction trope taken, twisted into a pretzel, and given a thick coat of gold leaf and skulls. It's why the heroics of Draigo and Calgar rub people the wrong way. If Draigo was a frothing at the mouth looney who just believed that he was fighting daemons in the Eye of Terror, that would be grimdark.

It's so grim and dark that it cannot possibly be taken seriously, and no, there can never be such a thing as Too Grimdark.

I have to second the notion that "grimdark" was never, ever "seriously dystopian". It's always been a parody of exaggeration. Killing one person is a crime story. Killing a few thousand is a war story. Killing untold billions and entire planets, with their skulls stacked sky-high, is parody.

Also, old fluff was arguably even more silly than the current batch; relentlessly making fun of the 80s "collective" nerd universe of fantasy and sci-fi knowledge, (back then) pen & paper roleplaying coventions, etc... . A classic example:

Alexzandvar wrote:
We need Balance.

40k being too Grim Dark? Balance? The 40k NEEDS ROMANCE.

I always felt 40K shared a similar spirit of humour to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. They're different styles of comedy, but they've both got a similar feel to them in places. I'm reminded of one exchange in particular (I'll quote the TV series' version):-

Ford: I read of one planet up in the 7th Dimension, got used as a ball in inter-Galactic bar billiards, got potted straight into a black hole, killed 10 billion people.
Arthur: Madness, total madness!
Ford: Only scored thirty points, too.

Whereas H2G2 is more overtly comedy and makes more use of absurdity and abstraction, WH40K takes the more roundabout route of presenting itself in a po-faced manner, but then getting progressively more over-the-top until it crosses over into absurdity and thus subtle humour. Both are very British and very fond of dark humour. Judge Dredd has a very similar style to 40K, too.

That's always been the beauty of 40K to me. It can totally be played straight in small doses. But there's always that little knowing wink that everything's all one big joke, too. It's basically a serious sci-fi setting that is also simultaneously a parody of serious sci-fi settings.

As a matter of fact, I'd wager that the term "grimdark" actually implies this form of humour. "Grim" and "dark" are both sensible terms, but "grimdark", even the word itself, just sounds humourously OTT.

BlaxicanX wrote:Yes, there is. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE MATT "THE MAN" WARD FIXING ALL THAT GRIMDAWKNESS FOR US ONE SM CODEX AT A TIME!

......shut up. Lets save the unneeded Ward hate for the unneeded Ward hate threads.

No offence, but the grimdark humour of 40k is a VERY British thing. It isn't tailored for the American market and tastes.

Take Red Dwarf. A very grimdark situation, yet hilarious. And very British.

I think I understand the universe of 40k better from this thread really, I guess. I do really appreciate the humor involved.

I enjoy the grim dark nature of 40k, both for its dystopian, largely hopeless and yet heroic nature, and for its inherent humour. Too much grim dark becomes humourous, as pointed out above, and the right amount is what some of the best fluff is. Too little grim dark and you lose what 40k is.

I guess it really must be a British thing because I too find it mildly disconcerting.

It's partly why I found "A Thousand Sons" to be so entertaining along with many of the other Horus Heresy books.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:No offence, but the grimdark humour of 40k is a VERY British thing. It isn't tailored for the American market and tastes.

Take Red Dwarf. A very grimdark situation, yet hilarious. And very British.

As a less clueless than usual Yank, I'm agreeing here. 40k as a whole is very, very British, and the ironic deadpan of this hilariously grim and dark setting is what makes it so endearing. I think it can best be summed up by the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, which has a blank section on a page that just says "do not defile this space under penalty of death" with no reasons given whatsoever.

Indeed, dark humour as a whole is British. I haven't heard ANY dead baby jokes from anyone other than Brits.

I've heard plenty of dead baby jokes from folks, but not since I was in highschool and it was supposedly funny to be that "edgy".

Brother SRM wrote:I've heard plenty of dead baby jokes from folks, but not since I was in highschool and it was supposedly funny to be that "edgy".

Perhaps it was a bad example then.

Has anyone here read the new DE codex? It takes grimdark to an obnoxious level.

bombboy1252 wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Yes, there is. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE MATT "THE MAN" WARD FIXING ALL THAT GRIMDAWKNESS FOR US ONE SM CODEX AT A TIME!

......shut up. Lets save the unneeded Ward hate for the unneeded Ward hate threads.

How about I say what I want, and you go cry yourself to sleep elsewhere?

- - - - - -

As already noted 40K is actually getting less grimdawk, especially when you read stories like Gaunt's Ghosts.

On the other hand, the 40K verse is losing a lot of its "parody" status. Read the Horus Heresy series... that's not a parody, not even a subtle. It's pretty damn deep, and dramatic and depressing, lol.

It's only the codex fluff that's somewhat grimdawk, imo.

BlaxicanX wrote:As already noted 40K is actually getting less grimdawk, especially when you read stories like Gaunt's Ghosts.

Yeah, it's actually my only complaint against Ward's fluff. It's not that it's over the top or absurd - much grimdark is - it's that his fluff lacks the dry wit and rich irony that actually makes it humorous. Warporn or OTT isn't the same as grimdark, a distinction I feel is becoming lost over time.

Ailaros wrote:Warporn or OTT isn't the same as grimdark, a distinction I feel is becoming lost over time.

QFT

It's that little something in the writing that sets both (grimdark and warporn) styles apart. Call it ironic distance if you like. When 40k has fanatical enhanced übermenschen comitting pointless mass murder in the name of a deified dead(?) guy, I find it humorous. When Tom Kratman has rejuvenated waffen-SS troopers stomp the hell out of left-wing protesters, I find it unnerving.

Yes. Its called jumping the shark.

If you take some good grimdark seriously, it can be really fun. If you can't have a suspension of disbelief whilst doing anything to do with a grimdark universe, then maybe this isn't the game for you...