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Exactly as poll is worded. Regardless of what you vote for, please post a short explanation for your reasoning. Thank you.

Of course they are.

*Edit* I'll clarify my position. To think otherwise only complicates what is largely a simple ruling. The difference boils down to "I'm going to deploy my entire foot platoon of 50 guardsmen plus platoon command squad," and "I'm going to deploy my entire mechanized platoon of 50 guardsmen in 5 chimeras and a platoon command squad in a chimera." To exclude the chimeras poses more problems, such as what do you with all the chimeras? Run them in empty? Bring in the entire platoon squad by squad, which contradicts the FAQ? Simple really, chimeras as DTs are apart of the platoon for deployment/reserve purposes.

I don't have my rulebook, so I can't give any page numbers or other such information.

They are upgrades the same way Commissars are. I know this poll is in response to the rather heated debate concerning deployment and DoW due to the new FAQ.

With the exception of deployment in limited Troop unit scenarios (i.e. DoW), they are a separate unit.
In the case of the exception listed, they [i]count as[i] part of hte unit and, thus can be deployed with the rest of the platoon.
Therefore, I vote other.

Yup. Just like any other unit that's a part of a platoon.

The entry in the codex allows you to buy a unit from the "Dedicated Transport" section. In the same way as buying an Inquistor allows you to buy a unit of Henchmen.
The unit type will be Troops, but it is not part of the platoon, so it will not deploy as a single unit with the platoon.

Salted Diamond wrote:They are upgrades the same way Commissars are. I know this poll is in response to the rather heated debate concerning deployment and DoW due to the new FAQ.

New FAQ?
WAhhhhhhhhhh?
do you mean the 6th Edition one?
nevermind I found it.

Yes, the transports are part of the platoon. If they weren't then the codex or FAQ would have to mention it. The normal game rules already tell us that Multiple Unit Choices (BRB page 92, dedicated transports as the example even) bought under the same FOC slot are in all respects otherwise separate units... and the IG Platoon rule in itself countermands this even without the FAQ.

They are bought as Dedicated Transports in the same way that Rhinos are bought as Dedicated Transports for Space Marines.
In DoW you can bring in 1 full Squad AND the Dedicated Rhino as your 2 "troop units." Why would it be different for IG?
Note: I think the INTENT of the FAQ was to settle the issue of only being allowed to deploy JUST 2 Heavy Weapon Squads or just the PCS in a Rhino or just 2 blob squads. Now you can drop the entire Platoon as a whole (prestaging your blob and HWs so to speak) along with your CCS (sans Rhino).
Hopefully GW will recognize the implications of how that FAQ is worded and will issue a rapid response FAQ to the FAQ.
As a new guard player I don't like being in a situation of having to deal with such a major issue on a store by store house rule.

dkellyj wrote:In DoW you can bring in 1 full Squad AND the Dedicated Rhino as your 2 "troop units." Why would it be different for IG?

Because the FAQ allows it - IG platoons have always been, and will always be, special.

Dkellyj - because the FAQ for IG entirely changes the rules?

The ENTIRE platoon is one *unit* for the purpose of deployment in deployment limited missions.
Chimera are part of the *platoon* and thus, for the purpose of deployment in deployment limited missions count as one unit with the rest of the platoon.

The FAQ merely says that the platoon deploys as one unit and when it arrives from reserves squads in non-dedicated transports roll separately for reserves. There is no mention at all that platoons involves transports. Not in the platoon composition, not in the trasport rules (codex IG and BRB), no where. Units arriving/deploying along with their chimeras is because of basic transport & reserve rules. Not because they are part of the platoon.

As to "are chimeras upgrades", this has been asked before http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/367951.page . Look at the answers then...

Apart from the rules for multiple unit choices, page 92, that copper loves to keep ignoring.

BRB pg 92 Multiple unit choices "Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects" - this passage clears up that multiple unit choices except from being bought as a single choice has no other effect in the game at all.

Wrong, the IG Errata makes them count as one unit for the purposes of deploying in deployment limited missions

You just dont get specific > general, do you?

Again:
The FAQ merely says that the platoon deploys as one unit and when it arrives from reserves squads in non-dedicated transports roll separately for reserves. There is no mention at all that platoons involves transports. Not in the platoon composition, not in the trasport rules (codex IG and BRB), no where. Units arriving/deploying along with their chimeras is because of basic transport & reserve rules. Not because they are part of the platoon.

My IG codex shows them as part of the platoon. See, you can buy them for infantry squads, PCS, etc.

Guess your tippex is working overtime again.

The latter part of the FAQ reinforces D-transports as part of the platoon as well, but you keep ignoring that as well

Luckily the overwhelming majority seem to understand the real rules, not taloshammer-ignore-inconvenient-rules-40k

You can buy them as an option of the dedicated transport page, not in the platoon page. Platoons don't have chimeras in their composition.

Odd, I can see an entry for them on the platoon page. The rules for the dedicated trsansport are elsewhere, but so are the rules for lasguns, autocannon, and so on.

Or are you going to claim a platoon cannot shoot, because its weapon stats arent "part of" the platoon?

Any more awful arguments you want to repeat, despite being debunked every time you try?

Nope, those options are part of the platoon pages under "options". Chimeras are in the dedicated transport page. Look better next time.

Your arguments so far
a transport is like the comisar (huh?)
multiple unit choice rule in brb - which claimed the opposite
the faq - which doesn't mention that chimeras are part of the platoon and the deployment passage fits the normal transport & reserve rules without the chimeras being part of the platoon
the chimeras are an option in the platoon page - they are in the dedicated transport page
that chimeras are part of the platoon just because you say so - platoon composition in IG codex disagrees.
options such as autocannons are not part of the platoon page - They are part of the platoon page under options
wargear such as autocannons are included in the squad like transports (huh?)
Keep going...

Hey, you two, take it back where it belongs, please.

I voted other.
Not that voting means anything at all re rules issues.

Its most surely unproven at this time.
The faq itself is in limbo-land and needs rewritteing quick sharp.

Back to lying, I see

Talos lying, again wrote:options such as autocannons are not part of the platoon page - They are part of the platoon page under options

Wrong. Apparently you cannot read a simple English sentence.

YOUR argument is that, despite the option for a Chimera appering on the Platoon page, they are not part of the platoon. Autocannon also appear as an option on the platoon page, and are part of the platoon despite their stats appearing elsewhere

You have a real issue with truthfulness, or else you are atetmpting to create ANOTHER strawman to add to your ever increasing list of fallacies

Talos lying for the umpteenth time wrote:wargear such as autocannons are included in the squad like transports (huh?)

Nope, still not my argument. Try again - everytime you construct a strawman (or in this case just simply lying) you will be called on it, in the hope noone else takes your arguments as having merit

Why would the FAQ go out of its way to tell you that Non-dedicated transports roll seperately and not say the same for dedicated transports? Since GW sees a difference and says that the platoon choice as a whole deploys as one entity but not to include Non-DT units then, by process of elimination, DT units are to be deployed with the rest of the platoon.

Its exactly that process of elimination the Copper tries to gloss over, by pretending that chimera would roll on anyway. Utterly ignoring empty chimera, of course...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

fuusa wrote:Hey, you two, take it back where it belongs, please.

Yes this very much so please. I would prefer it if this thread was not prematurely locked. Posting your own reasons for why you voted the way you did is fine. Responding to another poster's post to clarify something is fine. The back and forth arguments are not fine and are not for this thread though. Please use the other thread debating this issue already and keep the majority of arguments there. Thank you all.

OP asks, "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"

I have been reading the earlier thread (up to 8 pages as I write this) as well as this new poll with some interest. I play mech IG, not exclusively, but often. IG is also a common opponent army at my FLGS, with several active players. I am sure this issue will come up next week at our tournament.

Other than some brief outbursts of immaturity, it has been a great debate. I do not believe either position has a conclusive supporting argument. (Epistemological definition of conclusive evidence guarantees the truth of the position being supported) People often say something is conclusive when they really mean convincing or persuasive.

I find the argument in favor of the chimera being part of the infantry platoon to be the more persuasive case.

This is definitely a change from how the situation was previously played. The change is due to the new language in the IG "faq". It should be noted that this change is not in the faq section of the "faq", but the errata section. "The errata [section] corrects any mistakes in the codex." This is because what people, myself included, commonly call the "faq" could be more accurately a codex update.

We all want to know what is permitted under the DoW rules of deployment for an IG platoon with one or more dedicated transports (chimera) selected for its PCS and/or Infantry squads. IMO, the crucial point has been correctly identified by the poll question. "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"

sigh.. have to go to dentist. will be back and edit in more

edit: back. OK, here we go...

Let's start by quoting some rules and defining some terms/rules

Infantry platoon - my hard copy of the IG codex is from July 2009. On page 96, it says, "Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads, 0-2 Special Weapons Squads and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves."

Nifty, sounds like a nice way to pack a lot of blob firepower happiness into one troops choice on the force org chart or to drop on the board all at once.

Platoon Command Squad (PCS) and Infantry Squad (PIS) - their entries on pages 96 and 97 respectively, go on to say "Transport: The squad may take a Chimera as dedicated transport (see page 99 for points cost)."

Nifty, my PCSs and PISs can buy dedicated transports (DT). So far so good. What all is this good for other than trying to squeeze 17000 points of IG into the standard force org chart? (Trust me, it's not pretty, but you can do it.) I'm not sure, maybe something will come up. I'll wait and see....

I should note at this point that I started playing 40k about 18 months ago and only ever learned 5th ed rules. I am not confusing this stuff with some previous edition or codex, and I do have some experience playing with and against IG platoons. My experience is far from perfect, just as I am far from infallible. 40k is a game that includes many simple rules that can have non-obvious and complex interactions. Part of what I love about the game is the continued exploration of and subtle changes to these odd rules interactions. Until last week, if you asked me what infantry platoons were good for I would have said squeezing points into the force org and bringing lots of guys in from reserves simultaneously. If I played dawn of war, the most I would drop onto the table before turn 1 would be 5 PISs (combined into one unit, probably with a commissar), a PCS and a Company Command Squad (CCS). No chimeras, no Heavy Weapons Squads (HWS), no etc else. In retrospect, I think I and many at my shop were playing that wrong, but I'll get to that in a second.

I checked my old copy of the Codex: Imperial Guard FAQ ( m1490293a_FAQ_ImperialGuard_2009.pdf) It's dated August 2009. I find no mention of the Infantry Platoon in relation to Dawn of War, deployment, reserves or outflanking. If anyone has a copy of an IG FAQ pdf released after this but before the Jan 2012 one, I would be very interested in hearing if there is any mention of these topics. That brings us to the current debate, which began (I believe) when the Jan 2012 FAQs dropped and some of us read this...

WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: IMPERIAL GUARD Official Update Version 1.1 (m2170011a_Imperial_Guard_FAQ_Version_1_1_January_2012.pdf) says, "Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

The document in question started off by saying
"Although we strive to ensure that our codexes are
perfect, sometimes mistakes do creep in. In addition,
we occasionally print new versions of our rules, which
require amendments to be made in older versions of
our codexes. When such issues arise, we feel that it is
important to deal with them as promptly as we can,
and we therefore produce regular updates for all of
our codexes. When changes are made, the version
number will be updated, and any changes from the
previous version will be highlighted in Magenta. Where
a version number has a letter, E.g. 1.1a, this means it
has had a local update, only in that language, to clarify
a translation issue or other minor correction.
Each update is split into three sections: Errata,
Amendments, and ‘Frequently Asked Questions’. The
Errata corrects any mistakes in the codex, while the
Amendments bring the codex up to date with the latest
version of the rules. The Frequently Asked Questions
(or ‘FAQ’) section answers commonly asked questions
about the rules. Although you can mark corrections
directly in your codex, this is by no means necessary –
just keep a copy of the update with your codex.

The fact that this document is numbered 1.1 and that the boilerplate warning label at the beginning is ALSO in magenta, makes me strongly suspect that this is the first time this language was included in the IG FAQ and that this was likely the 1st update of the IG FAQ since August 2009. But, back to our debate starting text. I will divide it into 3 parts.

“[A] Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed.
[B] In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon.
[C] Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

A and B seem to be a restatement of the original codex text with a slight twist. Instead of the "Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying" we now have "Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed." Interesting. Muddy, but interesting. C seems to be genuinely new information. I have seen this issue come up for PCSs and PISs embarked on reserved Vendettas. I like and appreciate the clarification that C brings to that situation. I would have really, really appreciated it being a separate FAQ entry from the one it was lumped in with, because lumped in with the words "In addition" in the preceding sentence has caused many people, myself included, some major confusion. Back to A and B.

This appears to be a broadening clarification of the original codex entry. Now when I play dawn of war, I can drop my whole platoon on the table as one troops choice, HWS and all. In retrospect, I believe that was RAI all along and that I was playing incorrectly. Oh well, I am more concerned with getting it correct now than defending any previous mistakes I might have made. I am perfectly willing to admit that I make mistakes and do things wrong. I would prefer to learn about it and play it right in the future.

But what about those pesky chimeras? What do the rules have to say about them?

page 99 IG codex "Many Imperial Guard units have the option of selecting a dedicated transport vehicle. These vehicles do not use up any force organizational chart selections, but otherwise function as separate units. See the Vehicles section of the Warhammer 40000 rulebook for details of how transport vehicles operate." o....k.....

The BRB has quite a lot to say about vehicles. The 2 passages I found most relevant were...

page 67 BRB
"DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These 'dedicated
transports' do not use up a slot on the force organization chart. Other vehicles may also have a transport capacity, but they are chosen separately
as normal and occupy a force organization chart slot of their own (for example, the mighty Space Marine Land Raider).

The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent
characters). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as
explained in the vehicles entry (it might not be able to transport Terminators, for example)."

and

page 87 BRB
"Dedicated transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this
distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same
force organization category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (Troops)
counts as a unit of Troops. but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) It counts as Elite."

page 93 BRB
Dawn of War says a player "can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table"

They even kindly give an example that includes dedicated transports...
"Example: player A wins the roIl-off and deploys an infantry unit from his Troops and one monstrous creature from his HQ, in his half of the table. He also
declares that a second infantry unit from his Troops will use its Infiltrate ability In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops. already embarked
into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops). He then deploys an independent character from his HO, joining the unit embarked in the
transport. Finally, player deploys his infiltrating unit."

Nifty. Now what's it all mean in the following situation? Dawn of War deployment, a player has a CCS w/ Chimera, a Vet squad with Chimera, and 2 Infantry platoons - one with the minimum 2 PISs w/ Chimera and the PCSs with Chimera, and the other Infantry Platoon super full with a conscripts blob, 5 PISs (either together or separate), 5 HWS 1 PCS and the attached/associated 6 chimeras. What is the most models that player can deploy before turn 1?

A week ago I would have said the CCS, not it's Chimera, the small Infantry platoon, as a PCS and a 20 man blob, but not their 3 chimeras. An infantry platoon HAS to deploy together, but many larger ones could not deploy in DOW before the 1st turn due the deployment constraints. The new IG Codex update has changed (or at the least, clarified) that. What about the chimeras?

I have gone round in circles on this. I think the Al'rahem example is instructive, but not a conclusive precedent. I think the distinction between "transport" and "unit upgrade" is a red herring. The Chimera is clearly not the same unit as the PCS or the PIS, but is it in the same platoon? I think that current RAW, the chimeras are separate from the platoon. I think the RAI, the Al'rahem example, and the nebulous nature of the infantry platoon entry in general and the language of the new FAQ entry in particular STRONGLY suggests that the chimeras are part of the platoon, but in the spirit of RAW and tournament consistency, I don't think they should be part of the initial deployment.

Since I am not a psychic, I can only make a conclusive case for RAW, not RAI. I would love clarification of this issue by GW, but I think it unlikely in the near future. Until then, you are only allowed to do in the game what you are allowed to do in the game. Just because you cannot show me a rule that says I cannot drop an angry cat on the game area if I am losing, does not mean I can drop an angry cat on the game area if I am losing. I would have to show show you a rule that says I can. Hence, I cannot. I think there is a STRONG argument for the chimeras to be part of the platoon. I cannot in good faith it is clear and without fluff inference on my part.

I will bounce it around my shop, but unless someone can cite me a rule I have missed, a faq entry that sheds more light, a GW battle rep that exemplifies the situation, etc. I will have to say no chimeras as part of the infantry platoon.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Why would the FAQ go out of its way to tell you that Non-dedicated transports roll seperately and not say the same for dedicated transports? Since GW sees a difference and says that the platoon choice as a whole deploys as one entity but not to include Non-DT units then, by process of elimination, DT units are to be deployed with the rest of the platoon.

Because if the faq didn't make a distiction between dedicated and non dedicated then you could have 3 vendetas, put one infantry squad inside and have them arrive with one reserve roll. Or worse make 3 squadrons of 3 valkyries, put 1 infantry squad in 1 valkyrie from each squadron and have all 9(!) arrive with one reserve roll. This is the situation the faq adresses. It was never intented to imply that dedicated transports are suddenly made part of the platoon.


And to resolve this "instead" issue. Non DTs with platoon units inside arrive rolling separately for reserves, instead of DTs with platoon units inside, which arrive normally along with the platoon using normal transport & reserve rules. Empty chimeras are not part of the faq at all.

Yep, the correct, rulesbased option has been selected by the overwhelming majority.

OP - i'm correcting the lies of a single poster, who is apparently incapable of telling the truth. I'll try to refrain from much more arguing, however have to reserve the ability to point out the inaccuracies, fallacies and down right untruths of a poster.

Just like I stated in the thread on this subject. Yes they are apart of the platoon. They are an upgrade (albeit with different rules being a vehicle) just like a commisar or a HWT.

I said 'no' simply because they are not in the list of units in the platoon on page 96 and there is no FAQ/errata that has changed that.

They are deployed with the platoon for DOW purposes as per the new FAQ and its implications at the end of the relevant part but are still not part of the platoon.

But, hey! Either way, we get the same results: stupid numbers of 'umies in stupid number of boxes being deployed in DOW.

-cgmckenzie